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Re:Did Nintendo download a Mario ROM and sell it back to us? by eridius on Friday January 20, 2017 @06:49PM (#13447898)
If they actually did what this video is suggesting, it's interesting, but there's nothing actually wrong with it. Yes, Nintendo says that third-party emulation is something they disagree with. But Nintendo isn't a third party. They actually own the system and games in question. If they actually did download a ROM (and I'm not convinced they did, they could have used the same tools and produced an identical ROM), while they say it's illegal for the ROM provider to provide said ROM, it's not illegal for Nintendo to use the ROM since it's their intellectual property.
Re:Did Nintendo download a Mario ROM and sell it back to us? by mistercow on Friday January 20, 2017 @07:02PM (#13447969)
I generally agree, but then there's the matter of lying about it. Why do that, if they're in the right?

I think the answer is that there are some subtle ways that doing this sends a message they don't want to send. Like, for example, that the illegal emulation community facilitated the existence of Virtual Console. That's a bad message for their point of view, because it legitimizes the idea that ROM sharing serves the archival purpose that some of its proponents claim it serves.

And that's a legitimate point. So what's wrong with what they've done is nuanced, but I think it's definitely there.

Re:Did Nintendo download a Mario ROM and sell it back to us? by eridius on Friday January 20, 2017 @10:35PM (#13448604)
Maybe they're not lying.

Or, alternatively, maybe a contractor was responsible for this (even the video suggests this explanation), and simply told Nintendo they didn't download the ROM.

Re:Did Nintendo download a Mario ROM and sell it back to us? by lucideer on Saturday January 21, 2017 @10:43AM (#13450516)
Lying about it makes perfect sense from a reputational perspective. Just because they're right legally, doesn't mean they'll be perceived to be in the right morally by potential customers.

They would profiting from other people's voluntary labour. That fact that labour might have been performed illegally, in violation of Nintendo's intellectual rights, won't detract from that fact for many.

Re:Did Nintendo download a Mario ROM and sell it back to us? by drcode on Friday January 20, 2017 @07:00PM (#13447956)
There's nothing legally wrong with it, but it's hypocritical for them to benefit from services provided by hobbyists while at the same time vilifying those hobbyists.
Re:Did Nintendo download a Mario ROM and sell it back to us? by TazeTSchnitzel on Friday January 20, 2017 @07:25PM (#13448060)
Indeed, the wrong here is from a moral perspective, not legal.

Although, well… a ROM may be a derivative of an illegal copy of Nintendo's original work, but does that prevent copyright nonetheless applying to the derivative? If it doesn't, then there's probably a threshold-of-originality thing applying (the header is tiny and its content obvious), but I do wonder.

Re:Did Nintendo download a Mario ROM and sell it back to us? by flycaliguy on Friday January 20, 2017 @11:15PM (#13448742)
I don't see any moral fault in taking a file which has robbed the company of significant yen and then using it to save a bit of yen.
Re:Did Nintendo download a Mario ROM and sell it back to us? by kosma on Friday January 20, 2017 @07:00PM (#13447953)
Suppose the person who illegally ripped the ROM also altered it in some way. Does this constitute derivative work, with that person holding partial copyright to the result? Or does the illegal copying preclude such possibility?
Re:Did Nintendo download a Mario ROM and sell it back to us? by detaro on Friday January 20, 2017 @07:11PM (#13448006)
If it is complex/original enough to qualify then generally yes, the person modifying also has rights on the result. A typical example would be a translation of a text.

EDIT: apparently this is not true for the US, I briefly checked but apparently missed something, my bad. It is for example in Germany.

Re:Did Nintendo download a Mario ROM and sell it back to us? by pjlegato on Friday January 20, 2017 @07:45PM (#13448139)
No, legal derivative works can only be made with the authorization of the copyright holder[1]. The question was specifically about an unauthorized derivation.

Creating any unauthorized derivative work is illegal and thus ineligible for copyright protection, including the preparation of unauthorized translations (other than under fair use exemptions such as for news reporting, research, or scholarly purposes).[2]

[1] https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/17/106 [2] http://www.unc.edu/~unclng/copy-corner73.htm

Re:Did Nintendo download a Mario ROM and sell it back to us? by dragonwriter on Friday January 20, 2017 @07:52PM (#13448157)
As I understand it, there are two different issues, copyright in the derivative work, and legality of the act of creating the derivative work.

Copyright of a derivative work that itself meets the standard for copyrightability rests with the creator of the derivative, because, under law, any copyrightable work has a copyright that belongs to the creator at the moment it is created.

A derivative created without proper permission is also a violation of the copyright of the original, but that's a separate issue.

Re:Did Nintendo download a Mario ROM and sell it back to us? by detaro on Friday January 20, 2017 @07:50PM (#13448153)
Just saw your other comment and edited, apparently I didn't check thoroughly enough for the US (Here in Germany the permission isn't needed in most cases. Without permission you can't do much with your derivative work afterwards of course)
Re:Did Nintendo download a Mario ROM and sell it back to us? by logicallee on Saturday January 21, 2017 @09:33AM (#13450159)
how can people do these kinds of work on a speculative basis then? surely their work is protected by copyright even though if they were to reproduce it, it would be infringing. I am sure it's in their copyright when they try to sell it to the company they've derived it from.

otherwise how could anyone do spec work!

EDIT: I mean unsolicited spec work - the company they're pitching doesn't even know they're pitching them until they send their pitch. Surely their pitch is still protected by copyright, even though as it's unauthorized the person producing it wouldn't have the right to publish their pitch without approval (if it's a derivative of the company's assets)?

Re:Did Nintendo download a Mario ROM and sell it back to us? by pjlegato on Friday January 20, 2017 @07:40PM (#13448121)
In general, no, such an unauthorized copy is not legally a derivative work, and therefore the pirate cannot claim any rights over it -- according to 17 U.S.C. § 106[1], derivative works can only be made by or with the authorization of the owner of the copyright.

Adding substantial new content does qualify it as an derivative work -- but it's still infringing, since any derivative works made without authorization are illegal.

[1] https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/17/106

Re:Did Nintendo download a Mario ROM and sell it back to us? by kbutler on Tuesday January 24, 2017 @10:36AM (#13472143)
You seem to be making an unjustified leap that an unlicensed work is ineligible for copyright protection.

If I create a derivative work, e.g., a Star Trek "fanfic", I may not have rights to publish that work commercially, because of the copyright of creator of the base work.

However, the original copyright holder cannot simply take my work and publish it, because I have rights in my own creation.

This leaves the derived work in an awkward position where it cannot be published commercially without consent of both parties, or until expiration of the copyright on the original work (if that ever happens again).

Re:Did Nintendo download a Mario ROM and sell it back to us? by raverbashing on Friday January 20, 2017 @07:21PM (#13448048)
I wonder what was the license of the original emulator. There might be a violation there as well
Re:Did Nintendo download a Mario ROM and sell it back to us? by eridius on Friday January 20, 2017 @10:38PM (#13448613)
I don't think you understand. ROMs aren't emulators. They're just a copy of the game. You need an emulator to run the ROM. Nintendo has an emulator. They didn't steal their emulator. They probably built it in-house, but even if they licensed it (which they probably didn't), that's perfectly legal.
Re:Did Nintendo download a Mario ROM and sell it back to us? by raverbashing on Saturday January 21, 2017 @03:54AM (#13449416)
> I don't think you understand.

No, I understand it perfectly

> You need an emulator to run the ROM. Nintendo has an emulator. They didn't steal

They're using an emulator which reads a certain format of ROM file, as demonstrated.

That would not be necessary if they wrote their own emulator

Re:Did Nintendo download a Mario ROM and sell it back to us? by eridius on Saturday January 21, 2017 @05:48PM (#13452520)
Yes it would. There needs to be some format for the file that the emulator can read. Nintendo could have made up their own brand new format, but why bother when the iNES format already exists and works perfectly well?

Also worth pointing out, the format in question is just a 16-byte header, the rest of the file is data dumped from the cartridge and would be the same regardless of the format involved.

Re:Did Nintendo download a Mario ROM and sell it back to us? by akjainaj on Friday January 20, 2017 @06:56PM (#13447933)
Exactly, I don't see the problem here. It's their intellectual property, they can do whatever they want with it. Just because somebody else dumped it from a cartridge and uploaded it, doesn't mean they own any kind of copyright or anything--Nintendo still does.
Re:Did Nintendo download a Mario ROM and sell it back to us? by lightedman on Friday January 20, 2017 @07:00PM (#13447954)
There's code in there that Nintendo didn't write and thus doesn't own. The .NES header which tells the machines how to set up the machine state.

Basically, this means Nintendo is selling code it didn't write and has no authorization to resell. Doesn't matter if the game is theirs or not, the specific code added which they are using for virtual console is not their property.

Re:Did Nintendo download a Mario ROM and sell it back to us? by detaro on Friday January 20, 2017 @07:04PM (#13447975)
That's a 16 byte header which contains configuration flags describing the hardware of the cartridge and which target should be emulated, that's hardly "code" or copyrightable.

https://wiki.nesdev.com/w/index.php/INES#iNES_file_format

Re:Did Nintendo download a Mario ROM and sell it back to us? by lightedman on Friday January 20, 2017 @08:22PM (#13448259)
Somebody had to come up with that originally so that everyone else would follow the format.

BTW, your preferred data source is horribly lacking. No mention of NESticle in the popular emulators? No mention that the first NES emulator (where this header comes from/was made for) was a COMMERCIAL emulator?

I think you need to pick a better source for your data.

Re:Did Nintendo download a Mario ROM and sell it back to us? by detaro on Friday January 20, 2017 @08:27PM (#13448280)
That somebody had to come up with the format does not mean they have any rights on or over files using that format. Not sure why it would be relevant that iNES is commercial either.
Re:Did Nintendo download a Mario ROM and sell it back to us? by eridius on Friday January 20, 2017 @10:39PM (#13448615)
By your argument, the person who created the JPEG format now owns all JPEGs.
Re:Did Nintendo download a Mario ROM and sell it back to us? by lightedman on Saturday January 21, 2017 @10:25AM (#13450415)
No, by my argument, they own the FILE FORMAT. Did Nintendo create the .NES header required for emulators to work with their games? No? Then where is their legal license to commercially use that header data which they did not create?
Re:Did Nintendo download a Mario ROM and sell it back to us? by eridius on Saturday January 21, 2017 @05:52PM (#13452535)
No, nobody owns the file format. When applicable, file formats are protected by patents, not copyrights, but you can't actually even patent a file format, any relevant patent would be on algorithms used to encode the data that is then used in the file format (and that's not applicable here).
Re:Did Nintendo download a Mario ROM and sell it back to us? by lightedman on Sunday January 22, 2017 @01:15AM (#13453884)
I said NOTHING about the file format being owned. The code inside, the header which EVERY EMULATOR USES, is the unique thing, and can be protected.

By the way, every ROM ripping tool explicitly states "Non-commercial purposes" so Nintendo still violates a specific licensing limitation by using a ROM made using those tools, whether they own the property or not. Any way you try twisting this argument, you're going to lose, hard.

Source: I own patents, have successfully defended my IP in court, and I actually read those little things that nobody else apparently does that LEGALLY puts restrictions upon the software use.

Re:Did Nintendo download a Mario ROM and sell it back to us? by eridius on Monday January 23, 2017 @01:48PM (#13464735)
No, the header cannot be protected. File formats cannot themselves be protected at all. What you can do is patent algorithms that are used to produce the data for the format. But there's nothing in the 16-byte iNES header that would qualify for patent protection (and of course the format author didn't seek protection in the first place).

As for ROM ripping tools, you're assuming that Nintendo took someone else's non-commercial ROM ripping tool and used it, instead of dumping the ROM themselves. Besides, where do you even get the info that "every ROM ripping tool" is for Non-commercial purposes? I just searched for a NSES rom dumper and found something called the Kazzo cartridge "INL Retro" NES Dumper-Programmer and there's no sign anywhere on the page or the readme.txt of it being restricted to non-commercial purposes.

> Source: I own patents

Then you should know that you actually have to file for patents in order to have them, which the author of the iNES format didn't do (and couldn't even do, because there's nothing in there that qualifies for patent protection).

Re:Did Nintendo download a Mario ROM and sell it back to us? by detaro on Sunday January 22, 2017 @08:42PM (#13459021)
> The code inside, the header which EVERY EMULATOR USES, is the unique thing, and can be protected.

In my interpretation the bytes in the file are just a description of facts, and it is highly unlikely that the act of writing down facts about the cartridge in a specific way is enough to create a work on its own that could be protected. Calling them "code" IMHO would be quite misleading, since that would lead to confusion with a program or the executable code in the image. (Larger data sets/ROM collections might be protectable under database copyright laws in jurisdictions where those exist)

Just to be sure: If you mean a software implementation reading/writing said header, that of course could have copyright protection.

> By the way, every ROM ripping tool explicitly states "Non-commercial purposes"

There are open-source (BSD licensed) tools that have no such limitations.

Re:Did Nintendo download a Mario ROM and sell it back to us? by lightedman on Sunday January 22, 2017 @11:30AM (#13455835)
Opps, I did say something about file format being owned but that's not what I meant.

And if nobody can own a file format, please explain Adobe's patent on the PSD or DNG formats themselves (owning the specification = owning the format.)

Re:Did Nintendo download a Mario ROM and sell it back to us? by detaro on Sunday January 22, 2017 @08:21PM (#13458915)
Quoting Adobe on DNG and patents:

“Essential Claim” means a claim of a patent, whenever and wherever issued, that Adobe has the right to license without payment of royalty or other fee that is unavoidably infringed by implementation of the DNG Specification (from https://helpx.adobe.com/photoshop/digital-negative.html#dng)

The patents are not on the file format, but cover techniques required to implement an application reading it. Similar to how you have to pay to use e.g. MPEG4, since various companies have patented parts of the compression mechanisms. The patents don't cover just MPEG4, but any video format using these mechanisms.

Re:Did Nintendo download a Mario ROM and sell it back to us? by akjainaj on Friday January 20, 2017 @07:05PM (#13447977)
I'm not familiar with that header, but by the sound of it, it sounds like it would be sort of a C struct with info about the ROM, not code. Isn't it possible that, if Nintendo had written the header in the ROM they're selling, it would be exactly the same as any other ROM dump from out there?
Re:Did Nintendo download a Mario ROM and sell it back to us? by wmil on Saturday January 21, 2017 @05:36AM (#13449602)
No. There's a string to identify the header in the file then a series of bit flags. You wouldn't create an identical header by accident

Nintendo either downloaded the ROM or used pirate tools to make it.

Re:Did Nintendo download a Mario ROM and sell it back to us? by eridius on Saturday January 21, 2017 @05:54PM (#13452545)
Or they just re-used the format because it already exists and works perfectly well. Don't forget, the "format" in question is just a 16-byte header, it's trivial enough that it would actually be more effort to come up with a brand new format (with absolutely no benefit) than to just re-use the existing 16-byte header definition.
Re:Did Nintendo download a Mario ROM and sell it back to us? by jbmorgado on Friday January 20, 2017 @07:42PM (#13448128)
Well, as an analogy.

1 - You are a painter

2 - someone says makes a copy of one of your paintings

3 - That's wrong you say

4 - you take the copy and sign your name at the bottom

5 - you sell the copy to someone else

See the thing is, copyright for something that takes basically zero effort to copy (like digital goods), soon enters in these kind of loopholes.

If Nintendo policy was: "ROM dumping is wrong IF you don't own the original cartridge", well, I could be on Nintendo side.

But Nintendo policy is: "ROM dumping is wrong, period! There will be no discussion about it!" Then, they actually become hypocrites if they use a ROM dumping from a 3rd party.

Re:Did Nintendo download a Mario ROM and sell it back to us? by eridius on Friday January 20, 2017 @10:43PM (#13448626)
If someone photocopies your painting, it's indistinguishable from a photocopy that you yourself made. And if you get one of the copies that someone else made, you still own the copyright to the work and it's perfectly fine for you to sell it. You could have made the copy yourself, you just didn't bother because someone else gave you a copy they made.

That's the same thing here. For all we know, Nintendo actually did dump the ROM themselves. The evidence suggesting they downloaded it from the internet is all circumstantial. But even if they didn't, they could have done so, and since they own the copyright to the game, it's perfectly reasonable for them to sell the ROM, however it was actually obtained.

Re:Did Nintendo download a Mario ROM and sell it back to us? by jbmorgado on Saturday January 21, 2017 @07:14AM (#13449758)
You are conveniently skipping the part of the analogy where you just sign the photocopy and sell it as your painting.
Re:Did Nintendo download a Mario ROM and sell it back to us? by eridius on Saturday January 21, 2017 @11:36PM (#13453601)
..because it is your painting.