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Re:High-Speed Traders Are Taking Over Bitcoin by greenleafjacob on Wednesday January 18, 2017 @12:58AM (#13424383)
Others here are missing the point. Until platforms like Bitfinex allowed margin trading, arbitrage was impossible because the exchanges are extremely risk averse. In order to arbitrage you would have had to buy on one exchange, then wait for 3 confirmations (~40 minutes?) before the receiving exchange would take the risk that the bitcoin was actually transferred. Now with short selling it looks like you can instantly borrow a bitcoin on the exchange that's inflated, then sell it immediately. You don't need to transfer between exchanges - all done completely on internal paper transfers inside the exchange.
Re:High-Speed Traders Are Taking Over Bitcoin by Buge on Wednesday January 18, 2017 @01:53AM (#13424610)
I don't see how confirmations come into it. To arbitrage between exchanges, you own some bitcoins and dollars (or other national currency) in both exchanges. Then when an arbitrage opportunity arrives, you sell on the high one and buy on the low one. If long term your accounts are unbalanced, you can withdraw/deposit, but speed isn't required for that.
Re:High-Speed Traders Are Taking Over Bitcoin by elastic_church on Wednesday January 18, 2017 @02:17AM (#13424697)
People weren't doing that because they weren't capitalized or there were barriers to becoming capitalized in the other country. Like there was no way to send national currency to the exchange in the other country because you couldn't get a bank account in the other country. But it was possible to send bitcoin to the exchange in the other country.

So people would create a routine circuit where they have dollars, buy bitcoin on US exchange. Send bitcoin to foreign exchange, sell bitcoin for that national currency (sometimes dollars). If possible, that exchange would allow wiring out, back to the user's real bank account. In other cases that exchange would have a bitcoin or national currency market of another cryptocurrency, like litecoin, where an arbitrage opportunity MIGHT still persist.

The litecoin would be moved and liquidated back on a US exchange.

Got to calculate it yourself and figure out why the arbitrage opportunity is still there. Usually there's a good reason. Sometimes there's a good reason that you are exempt from, and in those moments you borrow as much as a can get your hands on and make 5% profits as much as possible.

Re:High-Speed Traders Are Taking Over Bitcoin by Itsdijital on Wednesday January 18, 2017 @02:35AM (#13424758)
If you can immediately buy and sell between exchanges it should quickly level the prices. Something like that is easy to automate, so any slight margin that appears will be almost instantly leveled.
Re:High-Speed Traders Are Taking Over Bitcoin by atemerev on Wednesday January 18, 2017 @07:14AM (#13425795)
Everybody is talking on how easy it is, until they really tried. ;)
Re:High-Speed Traders Are Taking Over Bitcoin by ProblemFactory on Wednesday January 18, 2017 @11:11AM (#13427370)
The buying and selling is fast and easy to automate.

The difficult part is in transferring non-bitcoin currency to and from the exchanges.

If you for example buy bitcoin in the US and sell in China, then you end up with a surplus of CNY on a Chinese exchange's account. Getting this converted and transferred back to the US will incur exchange and transfer fees. The transfers might also take weeks - which will limit you to cycling small amounts of money slowly, or risking a lot of money at once if the exchange "has banking issues".

In the end, even a 5% or 10% price difference might not be worth running the arbitrage cycle on difficult to deal with exchanges in strange countries.

Re:High-Speed Traders Are Taking Over Bitcoin by gcb0 on Wednesday January 18, 2017 @11:24AM (#13427515)
the article is about doing this on a dozen chinese exchanges. no currency conversion necessary when it is all CNY
Re:High-Speed Traders Are Taking Over Bitcoin by gedrap on Wednesday January 18, 2017 @06:27AM (#13425608)
I guess that's where the 'high speed' bit comes in? It's almost instant, not completely instant :)
Re:High-Speed Traders Are Taking Over Bitcoin by _yosefk on Wednesday January 18, 2017 @05:12AM (#13425293)
Short-selling? Where's patio11? He said he badly wanted to short BTC, all that was lacking is a mechanism.
Re:High-Speed Traders Are Taking Over Bitcoin by patio11 on Wednesday January 18, 2017 @08:05AM (#13426019)
Shorting BTC on a BTC exchange involves more counterparty risk than I want to take on. (Folks have asked this before; see here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6894594 )

My current best option is hoping that a) the Winklevoss ETF gets approved and b) an option chain develops for it, in which case I will buy puts consistent with my belief that the long-term FMV for the ETF's assets is zero. (Exchange-traded options in the US are guaranteed by the Options Clearinghouse Corporation, which is why -- absent global calamity -- you can be very certain that e.g. puts on Google are worth money even if Google goes out of business or the people who sold you the puts are insolvent when their broker hands them an exercise notice.)

There is theoretically a DRW subsidiary which does over-the-counter options but they have a $25k minimum trade size. It would also require a lot of due diligence for me with regards to counterparty risk; it's not clear whether their options would reliably compel performance or that they would be in a position to backstop the failure of their clients in the event of total systemic collapse of the Bitcoin markets. It's also not clear to what extent that DRW would backstop them if they were insufficiently capitalized. (For an illustration of why this matters, read The Big Short, for the amount of heartburn that various folks betting against the housing market went through when it became obvious that they were entirely right on the merits but that some of their counterparties were almost certainly going to go bankrupt due to how wrong they had been about the housing market.)

(I've spent way too much time thinking about this, since "Bitcoin will eventually fail catastrophically" is the biggest answer to "A belief about the future state of the world which I hold strongly after reflection and which doesn't match the beliefs of some of the smartest people I know", which sets off my "Either I'm wrong or I should be betting against them" antennae.)

Re:High-Speed Traders Are Taking Over Bitcoin by SomeStupidPoint on Wednesday January 18, 2017 @09:41AM (#13426575)
If it makes you feel better, Id bet on the future of cryptocurrencies, but against bitcoin in particular.

The bitcoin network decided to strip the VM of features that made it valuable in the future (eg, ability to make transaction claiming represent the solution to a computation) in favor of safety and simplicity now. I don't believe the behavior of the network in resolving blocksize issues indicates the kind of political will needed to fix that.

So my bet is that the next iteration (or two or three) on the ideas behind Etherium will eat their lunch. Because having tokens to reward contract execution or a computation has a fundamental longterm value (and is similar to how real currencies function, in that executing a contract or doing a computation earns you the ability to have that done for you). I don't believe that just securing the ledger has long term potential.

Re:High-Speed Traders Are Taking Over Bitcoin by dwaltrip on Wednesday January 18, 2017 @10:23AM (#13426926)
Quick summary on why you think it will fail catastrophically in the long run?
Re:High-Speed Traders Are Taking Over Bitcoin by gcb0 on Wednesday January 18, 2017 @11:29AM (#13427559)
because it is only used for what this article describe and to smuggle money out of china.

both uses can be crushed very easily and then you will end up with a highly devalued good.

Re:High-Speed Traders Are Taking Over Bitcoin by notahacker on Wednesday January 18, 2017 @06:49AM (#13425697)
Any self-respecting BTC bear isn't going to short on an unregulated platform run by people heavily invested in BTC being a success and expect to see their margin again or get paid out on their contract if they're right. I mean, it's not as if exchanges have a good track record of not losing/stealing customers' money when BTC is doing well.
Re:High-Speed Traders Are Taking Over Bitcoin by voidz on Wednesday January 18, 2017 @11:23AM (#13427505)
You appear to be arguing false causes from which you draw irrelevant conclusions.

Firstly, the reality is that other people (lenders), rather than exchanges, are lending out their money, for a certain amount of interest. Exchanges have nothing to lose. Quite the opposite: they earn regardless of whether longs and shorts are successful or not. Take Poloniex as example: they collect a 15% premium on interest earnings. This is of course next to the premium they collect in the form of regular trading fees.

In nearly all cases this means that lenders don't lose money. Borrowers do because they pay interest. This is why you can only borrow after you allocate collateral, which is used to pay for said interest, and to collect profits, cover losses, and for forced liquidation in the case that the borrower's trades are about to lose more value than is covered by their collateral. This applies to shorts and longs.

The only chance this becomes problematic for an exchange, I think, is when a forced liquidation does not cover all of the losses and some debt stays open. In this case either the lender does not receive the right amount of interest, or, what makes more sense to me, is that the exchange will cover the debt and try to claim it back from the liquidated borrower.

Secondly there are a good number of exchanges that do have very decent track records and aren't as scammy as you claim. There were a few scammers out there, I'll grant you that - companies like Cryptsy and of course MtGox just stole incredible sums of money. And yes, this can happen again with other exchanges. Be that as it may, this still does not have anything to do with the possibility of shorting in particular.

Re:High-Speed Traders Are Taking Over Bitcoin by notahacker on Wednesday January 18, 2017 @12:08PM (#13427993)
Of course it has nothing to do with shorting in particular, except that shorting (at least until the Winkelvoss ETF gets approved) requires using precisely the same Bitcoin financial ecosystem that people thinking it'll crash are unlikely to have much faith in at all.

What you say of the exchange business model not being exposed to price movements in principle might be true of properly capitalised and regulated exchanges, but its less evidently true of the exchanges that actually exist.

The most recommended place to short Bitcoin is/was Bitfinex...

Re:High-Speed Traders Are Taking Over Bitcoin by gcb0 on Wednesday January 18, 2017 @11:31AM (#13427592)
mtgox was the most well know and reputable one. until it wasn't.
Re:High-Speed Traders Are Taking Over Bitcoin by Avalaxy on Wednesday January 18, 2017 @06:48AM (#13425695)
Going short has been possible for many years.
Re:High-Speed Traders Are Taking Over Bitcoin by ForHackernews on Wednesday January 18, 2017 @06:54AM (#13425720)
How/where?
Re:High-Speed Traders Are Taking Over Bitcoin by vkou on Wednesday January 18, 2017 @12:18PM (#13428108)
Bitfinex. Until it, ah, got 'hacked.'
Re:High-Speed Traders Are Taking Over Bitcoin by nosho on Wednesday January 18, 2017 @06:57AM (#13425733)
bitmex.com is my favorite.
Re:High-Speed Traders Are Taking Over Bitcoin by kosmos1337 on Wednesday January 18, 2017 @04:27AM (#13425121)
I came to the comment section to find out exactly how were they getting over the confirmation time, and I was not disappointed. Thank you greenleafjacob. The article should have mentioned this.
Re:High-Speed Traders Are Taking Over Bitcoin by runeks on Wednesday January 18, 2017 @01:10AM (#13424436)
> Now with short selling it looks like you can instantly borrow a bitcoin on the exchange that's inflated, then sell it immediately

This sounds more like speculation than arbitrate. With arbitrage, you transfer liquidity from one exchange to another by having a short leg on the higher-price exchange and a long leg on the lower price one. This is great for Bitcoin because it evens out the price differences between the exchanges, and at the same time transfers the liquidity of one exchange to another one, while the arbitrageur makes a profit.

I don't see how leveraged trading can replace this. Arbitrate is, essentially, taking orders from one exchange and selling them on another one, thereby matching a buyer and a seller on separate exchanges. It's a genuine service to the market.

Re:High-Speed Traders Are Taking Over Bitcoin by neximo64 on Wednesday January 18, 2017 @01:51AM (#13424600)
Leverage does the same because the counter-party wouldn't be able to tell the difference on whether you used your own or borrowed bitcoin and hence the effect is the same.
Re:High-Speed Traders Are Taking Over Bitcoin by runeks on Wednesday January 18, 2017 @02:50AM (#13424803)
I see your point now. I guess it all comes down to whether the arbitrageur is willing to take the risk of not being able to cash out bitcoins on the leveraged exchange. Leverage certainly increases the risk of not being able to withdraw, and often when you need it the most.
Re:High-Speed Traders Are Taking Over Bitcoin by speeder on Wednesday January 18, 2017 @10:18AM (#13426870)
I was one of the first people to do inter exchange arbitrage.

It ins't necessary extreme speed, in fact for me it took more than a month to settle.

I would first wait my program notify me there was a 20% or more profit opportunity (due to the slowness and risk).

Then I would buy btc with credit card on some usd exchange (usually mtgox, not always), then I would sell btc for brl on a Brazillian exchange.

I would pay the credit card with my brl when the bill came... this could take more than a month, and I would pay lots of taxes, but I would still turn a profit.

The reason I stopped doing arbitrage was that to me was too time consuming, because every month the payment methods would change (for example someone one month accepted paypal, then only cc directly, then only paypal again, then some paypal competitor where I had to register...)

Re:High-Speed Traders Are Taking Over Bitcoin by sschueller on Wednesday January 18, 2017 @02:56AM (#13424833)
Exactly,

I have been doing bitcoin arbitrage for a while with https://github.com/butor/blackbird/ . The project seems to have gotten some more attention recently for what ever reason.

Re:High-Speed Traders Are Taking Over Bitcoin by thinkloop on Wednesday January 18, 2017 @04:00AM (#13425033)
Looks nice, why dilute your arbitrage? :-)
Re:High-Speed Traders Are Taking Over Bitcoin by _spoonman on Wednesday January 18, 2017 @08:25AM (#13426127)
I posted about this exact issue just now, sorry did not mean to repeat your idea.