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Re:The Risk of Discovery by lmkg on Thursday January 12, 2017 @12:19PM (#13384099)
I'm not sure that those lines of study were actually considered separate at the time. A century earlier than Newton's time, math and geometry were considered subfields of astronomy; and astronomy was considered the observation of the realm of the divine. Not only was there not a divide between physics and theology, people actually thought that math was a tool for studying theology (one of Copernicus' sources of income was computing astrology charts for royalty).

I say this to reinforce Paul's statement, "But that's because we know how things turned out." "How things turned out" includes reclassification of what he was working out as belonging to different fields. I suspect that at the time, he didn't consider himself to be moving from one field to another but rather to trying to build upon his previous work.

Re:The Risk of Discovery by nostrademons on Thursday January 12, 2017 @04:34PM (#13386321)
Makes you wonder what the "software industry" will look like in 300 years.

Good ideas tend to split & bifurcate, until the original term is considered simply common sense and the parts people care about are individual subfields that were trivial when they started. Recall that "industry" used to refer to anything that was mass-produced in a factory, which, back in the 1820s, basically meant textiles. As the general techniques proved their worth, "industry" split into subfields, such that we got the "oil industry" and "steel industry" and "auto industry" and "aviation industry" and so on.

I think a similar process is happening with software, where the "software industry" is bifurcating into embedded software, social software, payment software, etc, much of it in support of an existing industry; "software is eating the world". I suspect that we're in the very early phases of this. In the early history of the industrial revolution, most industries were ways to produce existing goods (clothing, iron, tobacco, energy) dramatically more efficiently, much like how much software today is embedded in old-line industries' line-of-business apps. But starting around 1900, you started getting industries (electricity, aviation, pharmaceuticals) that were largely unrecognizable compared to their substitutes. You're seeing the very beginning of that now with specifically Internet- and cloud-based industries, but it likely has another century to go.

Re:The Risk of Discovery by photojosh on Thursday January 12, 2017 @05:55PM (#13386925)
Good point. I do both embedded (well) and web (so-so) dev, and they are worlds apart in almost every aspect I can think of.
Re:The Risk of Discovery by jacobush on Friday January 13, 2017 @05:09AM (#13389733)
The comment above yours made me think. If the outline holds, they are about to become even more worlds apart. It's funny to think that our grand children may marvel at how workers of today could move between fields with relative ease which then will be deemed worlds apart. We may all look a bit like renaissance men to them.
Re:The Risk of Discovery by temp246810 on Thursday January 12, 2017 @07:11PM (#13387361)
Thanks for your comment.

This is the kind of thoughtful comment I come here for - it's given me some ideas to go research on my own.

Re:The Risk of Discovery by olavk on Thursday January 12, 2017 @02:49PM (#13385489)
Yeah alchemy seem like a completely different field than astronomy today, but at the time it was considered deeply connected - the metals was corresponding to the planets and so on. Because the heavenly order was considered reflected in the earthly materials and vice versa, studying one would lead you to greater understanding of the other.

For a modern viewpoint it might seem like Newton was "hedging his bets" by contributing to several totally different fields, but I don't think it was seen like that at the time. It was all "philosophy".

Other "philosophers" in the early modern period had similar interests. For example Tycho Brahe is remembered as an astronomer with a strong focus on empirical observation, but actually was just as focused on astrology, alchemy and medicine (which was connected to alchemy and astronomy because of the same philosophy).

Newton was a "renaissance man".

Re:The Risk of Discovery by olavk on Friday January 13, 2017 @02:42AM (#13389126)
Also worth mentioning that his knowledge of alchemy got him an important job as Master of the Mint, where he worked to eliminate counterfeit coins. (Metallurgy is a branch of alchemy, and the purity of metals a major research area for alchemy.) Perhaps not as earth-shattering as principia, but from a personal perspective his investment in alchemy paid of handsomely.
Re:The Risk of Discovery by dredmorbius on Friday January 13, 2017 @08:35AM (#13390624)
And in a modern ironic twist, it turns out that the elements are connected to the stars.

Other than hydrogen, some helium, and a very small amount of lithium, all other elements were born of stars, through either normal fusion (helium, carbon, oxygen, nitrogen, ...), supernovae (heavier atoms: nickle, iron, ...), and for the heaviest including gold, neutron-star collisions.

No, the models assumed by alchemists weren't right, but the central nugget was pointing in the right direction. And studying the metals does provide insight into the dynamics of stars.

(And yes: on Earth, helium and several other elements are found not formed by stars directly, but through the radioactive decay of heavier elements, though those are of stellar origins.)

Re:The Risk of Discovery by cutler on Thursday January 12, 2017 @05:35PM (#13386804)
Ptolemy is likewise revered by astronomers as one of their founding fathers but they conveniently ignore the fact that in astrological circles he occupies a similar position due to his seminal work, the Tetrabiblos. Scientists can become very selective when dealing with alternatives to their world view.
Re:The Risk of Discovery by nitrogen on Thursday January 12, 2017 @06:41PM (#13387184)
Scientists can become very selective when dealing with alternatives to their world view.

No, they just remember people for their contributions rather than their mistakes.

[dead]
Re:The Risk of Discovery by Houshalter on Thursday January 12, 2017 @10:50PM (#13388278)
If its a great scientific discovery than it's not a mistake.
Re:The Risk of Discovery by emiliobumachar on Thursday January 12, 2017 @08:06PM (#13387624)
> some of our best scientific discoveries were mistakes

Could you give a few examples?

Re:The Risk of Discovery by ess3 on Sunday January 15, 2017 @02:18PM (#13405782)
In one sense the whole scientific approach is about proving yourself wrong, which could be seen as making "mistakes"
Re:The Risk of Discovery by junko on Thursday January 12, 2017 @08:16PM (#13387673)
Penicillin is a famous one.
Re:The Risk of Discovery by landon32 on Thursday January 12, 2017 @08:45PM (#13387782)
I think you're talking about a different type of mistake than nitrogen is. You seem to be talking about accidental discoveries, or discoveries that were discovered while using mistaken techniques.

When Alexander Fleming discovered that penicillin fought bacteria, he was not mistaken at all. He was spot on- it did kill bacteria. Sure, its discovery may have been caused by a mistake, but what he learned about penicillin was correct, as far as I know.

Re:The Risk of Discovery by junko on Friday January 13, 2017 @12:09AM (#13388550)
Ah yes sorry I isolated the point up to cup's comment.

But I'm still sure that there are/will be times when great discoveries are proven to be mistakes. Barring practical ones like penicillin, there has been numerous 'discoveries' proven wrong much later; Newton's colour theory comes to mind, and of course the rather famous its-a-particle-no-a-wave ping pong.

Re:The Risk of Discovery by cutler on Friday January 13, 2017 @12:04AM (#13388527)
What scientists cannot accept is that there are aspects of human life which are not observable or measurable. Science is good at measuring what is observable but many scientists then make that a foundation for denying, ridiculing or reducing what is not observable. Science then becomes, paradoxically, a religion.
Re:The Risk of Discovery by nitrogen on Friday January 13, 2017 @03:55AM (#13389421)
Do you not also see a paradox in claiming to be able to observe the unobservable?

As others have mentioned in the thread, scientists didn't just wake up one day and decide to ignore everything supposedly "unobservable". Science was once intertwined with theology. Over the centuries, the methods we now call science produced results, while other supposed "ways of knowing" did not. Scientific knowledge converges over time, but religion diverges.

Re:The Risk of Discovery by cutler on Friday January 13, 2017 @07:39AM (#13390345)
The unobservable category includes a lot more than religion. It may be that scientific knowledge converges more easily simply because it limits itself to what is observable or maybe, more accurately, what is mechanistic and observable. Take ghosts, for example. Do they exist? Let's conduct an experiment and take cameras to a supposedly haunted house. The ghosts in question decide to hide from the cameras. See, no ghosts. Told you so. The ghosts meanwhile laugh in background, taking a short break from scaring the inhabitants until the scientists leave.
Re:The Risk of Discovery by nitrogen on Friday January 13, 2017 @03:21PM (#13394363)
I think a lot of people mistake ghost hunting TV shows for actual science. The SciFi/SyFy channel is a shadow of its former self.

It seems also that you have a very caricatured understanding of scientists.

First of all, a claim of the existence of ghosts requires some evidence that cannot be explained by other, simpler means. The principle of parsimony (AKA Occam's Razor) is important because it works. So for our ghosts, we would need residents' observations of sounds, movement, or other unexpected events. They could keep a log of the time and place of every ghostly occurrence, and demonstrate that no other explanation (thermal expansion causing creaking floorboards, drafts moving the curtains, slightly asymmetrical mounting causing pictures to tilt, blood flow through the retina causing spurious visual patterns in the dark, etc.) explains the observations.

Then you bring in the scientists, and all of the observations cease as if by magic. There are still physical explanations. The scientists' movement may be masking subtler sounds. Their presence may have made the house warmer, so the joints are tighter and creak less. The lights may be on more of the time, so visual patterns caused by misfiring neurons aren't seen.

But even if you rule out all possible simpler explanations, you still have a way of fixing the ghost problem -- just sell the house to a family of scientists, or install cameras and microphones to scare the ghosts away.

--

Responding to the comment by clock_tower, that is the sort of platonic notion of "existence" that science avoids because it doesn't yield results. I'd say science doesn't really deal with "existence" in that sense, but "occurrence". So if you ask, "Does decadence occur?" The answer would quite obviously be yes. Using a more pragmatic definition of existence, you could say that any phenomenon you can define "exists", but you are likely to run into the problem of knowing which definition of a word someone is using.

Thus, I think you also may have a caricatured understanding of scientists, caused in part by the "fun-house mirror" effect from mechanically transliterating scientific jargon into a philosophical context.

Re:The Risk of Discovery by clock_tower on Friday January 13, 2017 @02:20PM (#13393828)
Here's another question: does decadence exist? The physicist would say that it's a meaningless question; the historian -- or politician -- would be well advised not to listen.

(Barzun, in From Dawn to Decadence, defined a decadent period as one which has an objective which it wants to reach, which it could reach if it made the sort of changes which it has made in the past, and which it fails to reach nonetheless. I forget where I heard it, but there's an idea that there's social technology as well as physical -- and social technology is easier to lose.)

Re:The Risk of Discovery by bbctol on Friday January 13, 2017 @09:58AM (#13391240)
Science, by definition, makes no statements on way or another about what is unobservable. Some scientists may ridicule the concept, other scientists may revere that which they believe in, but science does not make claims about that entire field, and it wouldn't be improved if it did.
Re:The Risk of Discovery by olavk on Friday January 13, 2017 @08:09AM (#13390518)
This is clearly incorrect since cosmology operates with the distinction between the observable and the unobservable universe. But of course there have to be a reason (based on models which can be verified in observation) to assume the existence of the unobservable.
Re:The Risk of Discovery by oskarth on Thursday January 12, 2017 @12:40PM (#13384316)
Thank you for reading and commenting with good faith and a, as far as I can tell, correct historical frame in mind. As opposed to with some literalist naive and/or hostile, contemporary-navel-gazing nonsense that is completely missing the point of the essay.

For more thinking in a similar direction, see Nassim Taleb's excerpt on the Lindy effect (https://medium.com/incerto/an-expert-called-lindy-fdb30f146e...), where he elaborates on the connection between risk and survival of ideas.

Re:The Risk of Discovery by whack on Thursday January 12, 2017 @02:30PM (#13385302)
"If you hear advice from a grandmother or elders, odds are that it works at ninety percent. On the other hand, in part because of scientism and academic prostitution, in part because the world is hard, if you read anything by psychologists and behavioral scientists, odds are it works at less than ten percent"

Some of my favorite books of all time were Taleb's, but I have to say, his writing is the perfect demonstration of power law. 10℅ of his content is remarkably insightful and the remaining 90℅ is unadulterated bullshit.

Re:The Risk of Discovery by gizmo on Thursday January 12, 2017 @02:43PM (#13385421)
I agree 90% of his insights are worthless, and yet the real insights that remain make reading his books very worthwhile. If I could produce 1 page of genius for every 9 pages of trash I would be ecstatic! Most authors never produce any real lasting insights at all.

The value of contrarians is not in the things they're wrong about, it's in the things they're right about. I'm pretty sure that was also the point of pg's mini essay.

Re:The Risk of Discovery by krsree on Friday January 13, 2017 @12:20AM (#13388599)
I have been following his work (and social media discussions) since Black Swan, and it seems to me that the ideas are becoming stronger (to me) with time. The later ideas reinforcing and expanding on earlier themes. For example, Black Swan was about unpredictable and catastrophic risk, later Anti-fragility was about how to deal with risks including Black Swans, his work in progress (Skin in the game) is how to make systems more anti-fragile.

I encountered his ideas (10 years back!) at a time when my default way of thinking was very intuitive instead of systematic and analytical thinking (which many of my high-performing peers had developed over the course of engineering education). Perhaps because of this, I took to his ideas like duck (swan) takes to water. I never acquired a systematic(analytical) thinking approach despite being in academia till mid twenties though I could hack decent academic performances. It was in an engineering profession that I realized the advantage and importance of systematic thinking and tried to consciously develop it.

Strangely, the use of systematic thinking has also actually increased my appreciation of his ideas after a period of wavering doubt. The systematic (analytical) way of thinking is too seductive and it's successes too apparent that it appears far superior to my earlier intuitive way of thinking. However, I am gradually coming to realize that the intuitive way of thinking has a deep logic of it's own which is not visible or may not even be decipherable. It's logic can only be inferred by its effect which ofcourse a critic can also be ascribe to luck!

Re:The Risk of Discovery by bbctol on Friday January 13, 2017 @09:59AM (#13391252)
I tell people to "read enough Taleb that you understand why you shouldn't always listen to Taleb"
Re:The Risk of Discovery by rudolf0 on Thursday January 12, 2017 @03:35PM (#13385859)
Why are you using ℅ ("care of") instead of % ("percent")?
Re:The Risk of Discovery by asavadatti on Thursday January 12, 2017 @04:10PM (#13386142)
It's a Google Keyboard (GBoard) thing I think.
Re:The Risk of Discovery by nitrogen on Thursday January 12, 2017 @06:45PM (#13387213)
Right, it's easier to find ℅ than % and easy to mistake one for the other.
Re:The Risk of Discovery by whack on Thursday January 12, 2017 @09:09PM (#13387876)
Holy s*, you guys are right. I've been using this phone for three years and never realized that ℅ is not percent. I always just assumed it was a display glitch that caused the "break in the circle".
Re:The Risk of Discovery by nitrogen on Thursday January 12, 2017 @09:21PM (#13387931)
I didn't notice until some of my texts only allowed half as many characters per message due to switching to Unicode.
Re:The Risk of Discovery by pesenti on Thursday January 12, 2017 @02:25PM (#13385255)
It is a filtering, nonsense expurgating mechanism. I have no sympathy for professional researchers. I for my part spent the first twenty three years of activity in a full-time highly demanding extremely stressful profession while studying, researching, and writing my first three books at night; it lowered (in fact, eliminated) my tolerance for fake research.

I wonder if that explains why his first 3 books where so much better than what he has written since....

Re:The Risk of Discovery by state_less on Thursday January 12, 2017 @12:57PM (#13384475)
It is also important to recognize that Newtons time had come. Newton doesn't make those discoveries 1000 years before or after. Our thoughts are placed in time, just as much as this message is in response to the timing of the authors post.

In addition, It's not too infrequent that you'll find another scientist who wrote about the same thing 30 years earlier, or in Newton's case with Leibniz, concurrent.

Rarely do we take a big view of the species, a creature that has been alive and thinking much longer than us, winding its way through time.

Re:The Risk of Discovery by jacobush on Friday January 13, 2017 @09:02AM (#13390792)
Our species?
Re:The Risk of Discovery by state_less on Friday January 13, 2017 @10:19AM (#13391417)
Yep, it's a reference to homosapiens. We have been talking to each other for a while now, spreading our knowledge. It's the stories we pass on, logic, math, physics and medicine that predicated inhabiting nearly everywhere and becoming so many. We are on a higher-order mutation now, many thoughts live and die in a generation. The advantageous ones stick around (eg. Newton's). We pass them on from generation to generation. Now we are more connected, and it's moving faster. Stay cool and and enjoy the ride cousin.
Re:The Risk of Discovery by jacobush on Friday January 13, 2017 @11:33AM (#13392136)
Will do
Re:The Risk of Discovery by abecedarius on Thursday January 12, 2017 @03:54PM (#13386019)
Yes, Newton actually wanted to include "classical scholia" in the Principia showing that he was just recovering the occult knowledge of the ancients: http://adsabs.harvard.edu/full/1984HisSc..22....1C

I don't know why he left them out -- I guess he knew it'd be controversial.

Re:The Risk of Discovery by jacobush on Friday January 13, 2017 @09:03AM (#13390799)
Nice detail!
Re:The Risk of Discovery by technotony on Thursday January 12, 2017 @05:25PM (#13386732)
It goes even deeper than that. At the time at Cambridge there was only one subject to study, called the Tripos, which included all these things. Overtime they've gradually stripped parts of the course into their own separate subjects. The only thing left is mathematics, which leads to a curious ceremony when you graduate with a maths degree which none of the other subjects have. So to Newton Theology and Maths were taught in the same major!
Re:The Risk of Discovery by junko on Thursday January 12, 2017 @08:30PM (#13387720)
Also worth mentioning is the old universities did not have formal assessments so 100% students graduate with certificate. While this would be a bit woolly in our hyperactive world, I think being able to study without that pressure could significantly loosen up our perceptions of what we can and cannot learn. But since the sum knowledge base acquired by the human race has grown considerably (I know, a total understatement) true polymaths will continue to be rare. But in the first place, no one should be pressured to become one. There is so much content made accessible today that 'tinkerer' IMO is an honourable occupation. It probably needs a more glamorous label though ...
Re:The Risk of Discovery by woodandsteel on Thursday January 12, 2017 @04:39PM (#13386363)
Quite so. What we now call natural science was all mixed together with supernatural, occult sciences. The two were separated only as a result of centuries of careful thought, plus the fact that the natural sciences made enormous progress, whereas the occult sciences just kept going around in the same circles.
Re:The Risk of Discovery by hcarvalhoalves on Thursday January 12, 2017 @07:51PM (#13387550)
deGrasse's talk on science and theism has interesting remarks on when (and how) the "God in the gaps" appears on Newton's work, shows how back then natural/supernatural was mixed together.

https://youtu.be/N7rR8stuQfk?t=8m44s

Re:The Risk of Discovery by balsam on Thursday January 12, 2017 @12:29PM (#13384214)
PG wants to make startups/hackers surpass earth-shattering thinkers, by considering the differences in the existential risks taken by each. Newton was betting (in PG's interpretation) that he would not go crazy or be seen as crazy. The existential risk for thinkers. Now to make scummy => crazy, where "=>" can also mean "greater or equals to".
Re:The Risk of Discovery by spraak on Thursday January 12, 2017 @03:04PM (#13385618)
Usually I see "greater or equals to" written as >=

Anyways, why shouldn't founders/hackers reach for such heights? But if I didn't know Paul Graham's background, I wouldn't assume that's what this essay infers. Rather, the essay doesn't say anything directly about startups.

I'm curious what's scummy about them to you?

Re:The Risk of Discovery by balsam on Friday January 13, 2017 @02:38PM (#13394016)
I had no time to write a full-fledged comment but people here took offense. Shrugs. I meant that the existential risk for founders is that of looking or being scummy. The precise, non-offensive definition of the sense of "scummy" that I intended, which unfortunately does not rhyme with "crazy", is, "profit from information asymmetry". Newton did not clearly "profit" --- though I had almost taken the 3 bets to mean the ones he placed on the South Sea --- even though he had a massive edge. (Pretty much people are arguing about scale here, in my opinion.) I do think PG wants a modern edge over Newton's methods, which concretely means pumping the applied intuitions/phronesis of the SV intellectual elite using software value capture or the VC network. By the way YC do employ heavy-duty "scum filters", e.g. the women interviewers. This is all consistent to the point of being trivial.