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Re:The closest I've ever come to falling for a Gmail phishin... by mike_hearn on Wednesday January 11, 2017 @07:23AM (#13373439)
It's a hard problem but the industry isn't doing as much as it could do. There's low hanging fruit that has gone unharvested for years at most big companies.

1. Reform the browser address bar. Safari does this right. Chrome, IMHO shamefully, does not. The address bar is completely ignored by a large fraction (I've read it's about 25%) of users because it's full of meaningless technobabble. These users navigate entirely by sight. Weak sauce changes like making some of it light grey instead of black makes no difference. The usability nuclear holocaust that is the browser address bar is in my view THE leading cause of phishing because it's rendered users unable to identify who they are talking to when they submit data via the web. The address bar should show the domain name only, or the EV identity when that's present, and the browser industry should adopt practices to push usage of EV SSL everywhere. Only EV SSL is a feasible approach to get the actual, legal, verified identity of a server operator on the users screen in a reliable and scalable way.

2. The big networks need to lead by example and adopt EV SSL, see above.

3. Kill re-authentications dead. Google was talking about this internally around the time I was working on the account system there, but I don't recall if they ever did it. For as long as web sites routinely ask users to re-authenticate at seemingly random times users will type their password into any page that looks right without thinking. Only by making authentication a very rare event can you start to convince users to take more care over checking the site origin. I think Facebook has got this right: I don't think I'm ever asked to sign in to Facebook unless I'm using a new device, but lots of websites don't.

4. Teach UI/UX designers about the dangers of designing user interfaces where attacker controlled content isn't strongly visually separated from system controlled content. In this era of personalisation and theming there's really no reason why things like the Gmail attachment icon needs to be placed right next to the content of an email with the same generic white background as attacker controlled content. Give it a semi-transparent background and set users up with a wallpaper-esque theme by default and it gets a lot harder to put things in a message that look like UI widgets.

Re:The closest I've ever come to falling for a Gmail phishin... by thomasahle on Wednesday January 11, 2017 @07:37AM (#13373501)
> 1. Reform the browser address bar. Safari does this right. Chrome, IMHO shamefully, does not. ... The address bar should show the domain name only, or the EV identity when that's present,

Chrome on Android does this. And it's extremely annoying. Since mobile browsers (and desktop browsers with tabs) usually don't show the title of pages, the address bar is the only place to tell e.g. what Wikipedia page you're currently reading.

You are probably correct, that it's a win for security, but I wish it could be turned off.

Re:The closest I've ever come to falling for a Gmail phishin... by gcp on Wednesday January 11, 2017 @07:57AM (#13373590)
We tried this in Firefox for Android and user outcry was so bad it had to be turned off almost immediately.

There's some tricks now to make sure the domain is visible and highlighted, but IMHO not enough to be safe, especially with the address bar scrolling of screen on phones.

Re:The closest I've ever come to falling for a Gmail phishin... by mike_hearn on Wednesday January 11, 2017 @10:00AM (#13374317)
Wikipedia pages have the title at the top of the page.

In practice, the sort of users who complain about such things are in my experience the sort who also have dozens of tabs open, which smushes the title down to just a few characters. Heck even when there's space in the tab bar Chrome won't allocate more than a few cm of space on screen to showing the title. HTML titles are pretty much a dying thing anyway, so given the ongoing pain caused by phishing I wouldn't hesitate to pull the plug on them.

Re:The closest I've ever come to falling for a Gmail phishin... by thomasahle on Wednesday January 11, 2017 @10:21AM (#13374512)
On mobile, scrolling to the top of a Wikipedia page can be 20 screens or more. After that it's a lot of working going back to where you were. Many news sites are similar.
Re:The closest I've ever come to falling for a Gmail phishin... by eridius on Wednesday January 11, 2017 @01:44PM (#13376352)
You could just pop open the tab view, so you can see the page title.
Re:The closest I've ever come to falling for a Gmail phishin... by fornever on Wednesday January 11, 2017 @12:03PM (#13375415)
I'll admit the situation would get slightly better, but all these incremental fixes doesn't deal with the real problem. Which is that authentication is treated no different from any other data. If authentication was treated differently you could quite easily...

1. Distinguish clearly between authenticating to the correct server and entering form data.

2. Not send the actual password to the server but instead use some form of challenge-response.

3. Store the authentication token securely i.e. not as a cookie.

4. Enable other forms of authentication e.g. with keys.

5. Decrease the use of passwords overall (though better password authentication would still be a win).

This would make it much harder to perform a range of attacks from phishing to session hijacking. It would also potentially increase privacy, since you could more easily disable things like tracking. The reason you don't see the improvements you mention is to some extent because the engineers in question would have to reconciliation with the idea that they are the ones responsible. It's much easier to hold the position that its other entities, or users, that don't understand how things work.

Re:The closest I've ever come to falling for a Gmail phishin... by sly010 on Wednesday January 11, 2017 @10:07AM (#13374373)
> 3. Kill re-authentications dead.

Then I would forget my password, like I always forget my github password and have to reset it every leap year when i log out for some reason, but i guess that's a small price to pay.

Re:The closest I've ever come to falling for a Gmail phishin... by jungletek on Wednesday January 11, 2017 @01:42PM (#13376328)
Password Safe is a (Bruce Schneier recommended) alternative. Free, runs locally. I'm a big fan.

https://pwsafe.org/

Re:The closest I've ever come to falling for a Gmail phishin... by uwu on Wednesday January 11, 2017 @12:36PM (#13375694)
you should invest in a password manager (i use keepass)
Re:The closest I've ever come to falling for a Gmail phishin... by sly010 on Wednesday January 11, 2017 @01:21PM (#13376125)
I have. I use 1Password for about a year now. But I didn't log out (hence log in) of github since I installed it and as a result it (1password) doesn't know my github password. And frankly nor do I. So my point is valid, at least until next time I have to relogin.

Case in point: I also use Authy with backup, but I don't store my backup password in the password manager, because that would be a potential single point of security failure. The app kindly asks for a backup password occasionally. It's not for access, but for reminder. In fact if I don't remember my password, I can reset it right there in the app. I find that feature very useful.

Re:The closest I've ever come to falling for a Gmail phishin... by Groxx on Wednesday January 11, 2017 @01:58PM (#13376469)
I'll toss on 5: iframes are the devil. Incredibly useful, obviously, but they also teach users to e.g. type in their payment-widget password in any domain, just because it appears after clicking a correct-looking button. They don't have a visible URL, or even a border, so there's no way for users to know that X isn't from this site, even if some other technique successfully made them aware of what site they were on.
Re:The closest I've ever come to falling for a Gmail phishin... by marcosdumay on Wednesday January 11, 2017 @08:55AM (#13373856)
#0 - Get browsers to agree on some protocol for client side certs, and make them usable. That voids the need for #s 1, 2, 3, or 4.
Re:The closest I've ever come to falling for a Gmail phishin... by mike_hearn on Wednesday January 11, 2017 @10:00AM (#13374320)
Make key management as user friendly as passwords and I'll agree. I don't think it's going to happen any time soon.
Re:The closest I've ever come to falling for a Gmail phishin... by lol768 on Wednesday January 11, 2017 @07:50AM (#13373555)
> The address bar should show the domain name only, or the EV identity when that's present, and the browser industry should adopt practices to push usage of EV SSL everywhere. Only EV SSL is a feasible approach to get the actual, legal, verified identity of a server operator on the users screen in a reliable and scalable way.

EV certs have their place, but I'm not sure they're better than a URL that you're familiar with. For example, Natwest uses an EV cert which displays as "The Royal Bank Of Scotland Group Plc" because it's part of a larger group, but the actual legal name of the firm is "National Westminster Bank Plc".

Additionally, what happens when we get companies in different sectors with similar names? If there's an "RBS Applications Ltd" that gets an EV cert which was later compromised and used for phishing I wouldn't suspect it was wrong.

> Kill re-authentications dead. Google was talking about this internally around the time I was working on the account system there, but I don't recall if they ever did it. For as long as web sites routinely ask users to re-authenticate at seemingly random times users will type their password into any page that looks right without thinking. Only by making authentication a very rare event can you start to convince users to take more care over checking the site origin. I think Facebook has got this right: I don't think I'm ever asked to sign in to Facebook unless I'm using a new device, but lots of websites don't.

And what do we do with the problem of users leaving their computers open and exposed for short periods? I Like GitHub's sudo feature, it helps ensure that sensitive actions (adding SSH keys, adding access tokens etc) require a confirmation.

An alternative could be to require a 2FA-only confirmation rather than a password check.

> Teach UI/UX designers about the dangers of designing user interfaces where attacker controlled content isn't strongly visually separated from system controlled content. In this era of personalisation and theming there's really no reason why things like the Gmail attachment icon needs to be placed right next to the content of an email with the same generic white background as attacker controlled content. Give it a semi-transparent background and set users up with a wallpaper-esque theme by default and it gets a lot harder to put things in a message that look like UI widgets.

Completely agreed on this. The rollover animations and other features that seem to be declining in use with the advent of flat design are also a great help here, because you can't achieve that sort of interactivity with an image.

Worth noting that I suspect there would've been some tells anyway with this sort of attack. The cursor would've been wrong over the entire image (hand not just over the button) and any subtle click animations wouldn't have worked.

Re:The closest I've ever come to falling for a Gmail phishin... by mike_hearn on Wednesday January 11, 2017 @10:02AM (#13374334)
If the legal name is Nationwide they should be able to get an EV cert under that name. Perhaps they just haven't bothered to do so?

The point of an EV cert is only half to give user meaningful names. The other half is that there's a meaningful level of verification done on the ownership of the name. If you're creating fake companies for the purposes of getting phishy EV cert names, it should be a lot easier to track down who you are. The standards around them are much more carefully spelled out than for DV certs.

Leaving your computer exposed is what lock screens are for.

Re:The closest I've ever come to falling for a Gmail phishin... by mikeash on Wednesday January 11, 2017 @01:34PM (#13376249)
One problem with URLs you're familiar with is lookalike URLs that appear to be something you're familiar with. Would you notice that you're visiting natwеst.com instead of natwest.com?