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Re:LEDs may cause retinal toxicity at occupational domestic ... by NickM on Thursday January 05, 2017 @04:16PM (#13331474)
I agree with you that this is probably overblown.

But, just to play devil's advocate, it seems plausible that sunlight might activate some kind of defense mechanism in the eye that protects it from the effects of the higher energy part of the spectrum.

If nothing else, the overall brightness levels would cause your pupil to shrink more in sunlight than under LED lighting.

Re:LEDs may cause retinal toxicity at occupational domestic ... by jessriedel on Thursday January 05, 2017 @04:27PM (#13331562)
It's definitely a good point. Dark sunglasses that don't block UV light can actually increase damage to your eyes, because your pupil dilates in response to visible light only.

http://healthland.time.com/2009/08/04/can-cheap-sunglasses-b...

However, the ganglion cells that influence dilation and melatonin happen to be mostly sensitive to blue light (~470 nm), so in theory this would only be a problem for LEDs largely concentrated at even shorter wavelength.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intrinsically_photosensitive_r...

Re:LEDs may cause retinal toxicity at occupational domestic ... by jules on Thursday January 05, 2017 @04:39PM (#13331669)
That's interesting, because when working with UV light I could feel pain in my eyes, so the body does have some sort of defense mechanism.
Re:LEDs may cause retinal toxicity at occupational domestic ... by nommm-nommm on Thursday January 05, 2017 @07:06PM (#13332704)
I always found this interesting...

I have worn polycarbonate lenses my whole life, well since infancy. Polycarbonate lenses block UV light. If I go outside without my glasses or sunglasses my eyes hurt, even in winter. I don't know if my eyes are super sensitive or they just aren't used to the UV light and the micro-damage it causes.

Re:LEDs may cause retinal toxicity at occupational domestic ... by pitaj on Saturday January 07, 2017 @01:27AM (#13342673)
Do you have blue eyes?
Re:LEDs may cause retinal toxicity at occupational domestic ... by throwanem on Thursday January 05, 2017 @05:58PM (#13332260)
That's not really a defense per se, just a warning that something is wrong. I had pain in my left eye when I burned my retina with a laser, too, but that didn't reduce the damage.
Re:LEDs may cause retinal toxicity at occupational domestic ... by owenversteeg on Thursday January 05, 2017 @11:53PM (#13334060)
If you don't mind me asking, what was the damage, and what wavelength/power was it? Laser eye incidents fascinate me since there's not too much information about them.

[edit] My email's in my profile if you'd prefer not to say publicly, although since a few others upvoted my comment it looks like it's a popular question :)

Re:LEDs may cause retinal toxicity at occupational domestic ... by throwanem on Friday January 06, 2017 @06:31AM (#13335527)
I don't mind at all! Happy to oblige. It was a 405nm (violet) 5mW diode laser, housed in a pointer of a sort that's sold cheaply on eBay [1]. It was focused through a spherical lens taken from an old scanner and another from a broken magnifying glass. With such a short focal length, it should've been very hard to injure myself, but I had my head quite close to the bench and was also messing with a couple of mirrors. Given such a golden opportunity, Murphy rarely fails to oblige, and in this case he obliged me right in the eye.

(The idea there, if you're curious, was to build a light collector with a relatively wide incidence angle that'd focus the beam onto a mostly decapsulated violet LED reverse-biased to act as a photodiode and tied to the base of an NPN transistor, so as to switch a GPIO on my entertainment center Raspberry Pi and use the laser pointer as a kind of remote control. The circuit worked quite well when illuminated, but a ~1mm target is hard to hit from ten feet away, hence the messing about with focusing optics.)

I don't have a detailed characterization of the injury because I'm rather overdue for an optometrist's appointment, but later experiments with the same configuration (and goggles!) showed that, so focused, the beam would deform and start to burn black ABS plastic within a few seconds, and took no perceptible time to burn a hole in a sheet of black construction paper, in both cases producing damage in a radius well under a millimeter - I found that, unless placed precisely in the focal plane, the beam was too widely spread even to raise smoke from the paper. The effect on my retina would therefore have had to be the same sort of closely localized heating, a hypothesis borne out by the effects I observed to result.

Beyond the pain already described (which lasted a good couple of hours), those effects included the click sound I mentioned, which I believe to have been produced by the sudden vaporization of a small volume of aqueous humor adjacent to the retina, and a quite noticeable but thankfully non-foveal bright green floater which did not cease to be perceptible until about a month had gone by. Whether this latter is the result of the injury healing, as I gather such minor retinal injuries often do, or rather of my visual cortex having grown a new filter, I won't know until my next slit-lamp exam.

[1] http://m.ebay.com/itm/Teaching-Powerful-405NM-Blue-N3ioiet-P...

Re:LEDs may cause retinal toxicity at occupational domestic ... by jacobush on Thursday January 05, 2017 @07:29PM (#13332827)
Don't look into laser with remaining eye.
Re:LEDs may cause retinal toxicity at occupational domestic ... by jules on Thursday January 05, 2017 @06:27PM (#13332468)
Warning signals do reduce damage though: if you hadn't gotten the warning then maybe you would have continued burning your eye. I certainly would have continued looking at the UV light if I hadn't felt any pain.
Re:LEDs may cause retinal toxicity at occupational domestic ... by throwanem on Thursday January 05, 2017 @07:42PM (#13332889)
It was a visible-wavelength laser, so I would've known there was a problem as soon as it hit my retina, even without the audible click and the sudden and disquietingly misplaced feeling of having been kicked pretty hard in the nuts. But I take your meaning.

(And I own a pair of wavelength-matched laser goggles now, as should you if you're going to do anything at all with a laser and any kind of focusing optics. Carelessly enough handled, even a 5mW pointer beam can pose a real risk. Don't make the same mistake I did!)

Re:LEDs may cause retinal toxicity at occupational domestic ... by a_t48 on Thursday January 05, 2017 @08:27PM (#13333170)
Laser to the eye causes testicle pain?
Re:LEDs may cause retinal toxicity at occupational domestic ... by throwanem on Thursday January 05, 2017 @09:45PM (#13333510)
Oddly enough, yes! Not in the same area, obviously. But if you recall the last time you caught a blow to the business, then imagine how that'd feel in your head instead of your belly, that'll give you a decent idea of what it was like. I don't know what else would, short of actually replicating the injury; I've had enough shiners to know what that's like, and while it's not at all pleasant, I'd probably choose it over another laser burn if I weren't given the option of declining both.

Fascinating though it was, I have to say I found the experience with very little to recommend it, not least because it disquiets to realize that the click you've just heard, conducted through the bone and tissue of your head, was produced by a small volume of fluid inside your eyeball suddenly boiling.

Re:LEDs may cause retinal toxicity at occupational domestic ... by jacobush on Monday January 09, 2017 @02:48AM (#13354723)
Beautiful language.
Re:LEDs may cause retinal toxicity at occupational domestic ... by xorxornop on Thursday January 05, 2017 @09:06PM (#13333332)
Probably "overwhelming" pain. Where you almost complete loss of rationality, a torrent of sensation that blocks out all other thought and sensation - vision narrows to a point, sound becomes choppy and discordant, limbs feel far away or even absent (no, I don't mean the one that's potentially chopped off or something ;) , the other ones)
Re:LEDs may cause retinal toxicity at occupational domestic ... by throwanem on Thursday January 05, 2017 @09:52PM (#13333536)
Oh, it wasn't anywhere near that threshold! (Although it was well over that for swearing the air blue.) See my sibling comment to yours; I just meant that the nature of the sensation was almost identical to that produced by a shot to the area, just in my head instead of my belly - and, yes, that really does feel as weird as it sounds like it would.
Re:LEDs may cause retinal toxicity at occupational domestic ... by jules on Friday January 06, 2017 @07:56AM (#13335894)
It feels like the kind of pain when you injure your testicles, but you feel it in your eyes. It is similar to the kind of pain you feel when you press your thumb and index finger between the bones in your forearm (under your wrist).
Re:LEDs may cause retinal toxicity at occupational domestic ... by hvidgaard on Friday January 06, 2017 @02:36AM (#13334579)
Our eyes are extremely advanced. When I stand near a laser cutter, of course wearing protection glasses, I can feel it in my eyes whenever it is turned on.
Re:LEDs may cause retinal toxicity at occupational domestic ... by nostromo on Thursday January 05, 2017 @04:53PM (#13331774)
Two other areas for additional inquiry:

1) Flicker: does the LED's high-speed flicker play a role in damage to the eye? (Here's an LED viewed in slow motion: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3wdljou1M8Q)

2) Spectrum: LEDs can have very uneven spectrums with spikes at particular frequencies (particularly in applications like street lamps that don't use phosphors). This is something an eye in nature would never experience.

Here's a great video showing LEDs strobing compared to other bulb types: https://youtu.be/1IDf16R_eJ0?t=13s

Re:LEDs may cause retinal toxicity at occupational domestic ... by fjrieiekd on Thursday January 05, 2017 @08:46PM (#13333253)
This is why I didn't jump on the spiral CFL bandwagon and why I won't jump on the LED bandwagon for some time to come. Good old-fashioned incandescents may be less efficient to run in summer, but they are heaven to my eyes compared with the crap being sold today. I'll gladly pay for lighting that doesn't make me nauseous or make everything look horrible.
Re:LEDs may cause retinal toxicity at occupational domestic ... by Brakenshire on Friday January 06, 2017 @05:38AM (#13335334)
Decent LEDs have very similar spectra and colour reproduction to incandenscent. And everyone on this forum stares at LED or CFL light whenever they look at a computer screen.
Re:LEDs may cause retinal toxicity at occupational domestic ... by fjrieiekd on Friday January 06, 2017 @08:49AM (#13336154)
Which bothers me less, as it's much darker, contains less blue light with flux or night shift, and doesn't flicker as many bulbs from the hardware store do.
Re:LEDs may cause retinal toxicity at occupational domestic ... by Natanael_L on Friday January 06, 2017 @07:03AM (#13335669)
Look for high CRI neutral or warm LED lights.
Re:LEDs may cause retinal toxicity at occupational domestic ... by fjrieiekd on Friday January 06, 2017 @08:50AM (#13336161)
There's still the flicker and glare, and an unnatural "look". LEDs are not as bad as CFL's, I'll grant you that, but still not as good as an incandescent for the living room or bedroom.
Re:LEDs may cause retinal toxicity at occupational domestic ... by mdekkers on Friday January 06, 2017 @11:52AM (#13337815)
try dimmable, high quality LED's. Osram, Phillips, Sylvania are all good brands to try. stay away from cheap chinese crap.
Re:LEDs may cause retinal toxicity at occupational domestic ... by fjrieiekd on Friday January 06, 2017 @09:26PM (#13342045)
If the spectrum is good, and there's no flicker, I think this could make sense in the kitchen or hallways. I haven't been that pleased with the LEDs I've seen but they are still better than CFLs and show more promise.

In the living room or especially the bedroom and bathroom, I prefer dimmer lighting with less blue spectrum. My 29W halogen incandescent on the night table doesn't exactly burn through a lot of electricity and has the most pleasing light in my eyes. Until there's a LED that can perfectly match that, I'll stick with that until these bulbs get banned, too.

Re:LEDs may cause retinal toxicity at occupational domestic ... by alexpoulsen on Thursday January 05, 2017 @05:37PM (#13332094)
The LEDs should be in 2 or more groups that each pulse at AC speed but offset by a fraction of the wavelength, that way there is little to no flicker. Or convert to DC and power it that way.
Re:LEDs may cause retinal toxicity at occupational domestic ... by lightedman on Thursday January 05, 2017 @06:11PM (#13332358)
That's WAY too complicated. Just run the power through a high-frequency tank oscillator to convert from 60Hz to a much higher frequency with just a coil and capacitor.

Or, do what I did. Just make the rectifier directly out of LEDs itself - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jDnCHyF7o5U And from there you can power your devices with the leftover DC power.

LEDs are seriously far more robust than they were a decade ago.

Re:LEDs may cause retinal toxicity at occupational domestic ... by gubby on Friday January 06, 2017 @03:28AM (#13334754)
Not sure this makes sense, when you PWM something like an LED, there is no 'leftover DC power'; the energy unused by the LED each cycle is not wasted.
Re:LEDs may cause retinal toxicity at occupational domestic ... by lightedman on Friday January 06, 2017 @10:50AM (#13337186)
Yes, there is "leftover DC power" as a diode only allows power in one direction and whatever is left after the LED voltage drop is rectified DC. If I put 12V of LED on a 120V leg, I'll have 108VDC rectified left over after the LEDs take their voltage drop. If no other device uses that power, it just gets dumped out to ground, but it's still unused DC power.

That's not PWM in the video. That's raw mains frequency.

Re:LEDs may cause retinal toxicity at occupational domestic ... by rahimnathwani on Thursday January 05, 2017 @08:42PM (#13333240)
What's the frequency of the 12V AC supply in that video? Is it the same as 110V AC going into the transformer? What is causing the lights to pulse every few seconds?
Re:LEDs may cause retinal toxicity at occupational domestic ... by lightedman on Thursday January 05, 2017 @09:10PM (#13333346)
Yup, same 60hz power mains, it's a simple 10:1 step-down transformer with a resistor and filter cap wall-wart. My camera is recording at 29.97 FPS so you get to watch essentially which sets of diodes on the rectifier are operating on the waveform peak/trough (or would actually see which ones had I had this on an o-scope.) The weird star-trek transporter effect is just the intensity of the lights screwing with the camera + the progressive-scan nature of the camera sensor.

Here's one directly on the mains power. NO CONTROL CIRCUITRY.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AE9QkHmeA-o

Re:LEDs may cause retinal toxicity at occupational domestic ... by mmmBacon on Friday January 06, 2017 @02:19PM (#13339318)
You don't want to power LEDs with DC if you want the highest light output. This is because the junction heats up and lowers the efficiency of light output. When LEDs are pulsed at a high enough rate, the junction temperature can stay lower at higher currents. This leads to higher light output.
Re:LEDs may cause retinal toxicity at occupational domestic ... by ScottBurson on Thursday January 05, 2017 @05:40PM (#13332118)
Fluorescent and gas discharge bulbs also have very spiky spectra. It doesn't seem like the spikiness is a problem in itself.
Re:LEDs may cause retinal toxicity at occupational domestic ... by jacobolus on Thursday January 05, 2017 @08:00PM (#13333020)
Fluorescent lamps are also very unpleasant, for the same reason, as are “neon” signs if you look at them up close.

Sodium lamps are much less objectionable because their spectral spikes are at much longer wavelength.

Re:LEDs may cause retinal toxicity at occupational domestic ... by Timethy on Friday January 06, 2017 @06:05AM (#13335450)
In my opinion neon lamps emit the most pleasant colors to look at.

The only sodium lamps I'm familiar with are high pressure sodium, which emit a garrish orange hue.

Re:LEDs may cause retinal toxicity at occupational domestic ... by lallysingh on Friday January 06, 2017 @07:31AM (#13335792)
To look at, or read under?
Re:LEDs may cause retinal toxicity at occupational domestic ... by Freestyler_3 on Thursday January 05, 2017 @05:08PM (#13331889)
Its funny, I replaced 2 spot lights in my kitchen with leds and when I use one certain kitchen device (high speed rotation thing) the leds start flickering visibly.
Re:LEDs may cause retinal toxicity at occupational domestic ... by lightedman on Thursday January 05, 2017 @06:12PM (#13332370)
One or the other doesn't have proper grounding or the cable for power to your appliances is run too close to your cable for lighting (which should be on separate circuits, mind you!)
Re:LEDs may cause retinal toxicity at occupational domestic ... by Freestyler_3 on Friday January 06, 2017 @01:53AM (#13334470)
Different rules here. There is proper grounding, but both the device and leds do not use grounding. Grounding is just for the metal cases, the lamp holder for example.
Re:LEDs may cause retinal toxicity at occupational domestic ... by lightedman on Friday January 06, 2017 @02:42AM (#13334594)
Proper grounding regardless helps eliminate this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l6bTSJVLCVI - I used to build fully-functional hydroponics buildings from the foundation-up. Electrical included.

Re:LEDs may cause retinal toxicity at occupational domestic ... by Freestyler_3 on Friday January 06, 2017 @07:56AM (#13335897)
How do you ground a light bulb, and a motor inside a plastic case?

Ground is for safety in AC, when there is a short the ground should take the current away resulting in power loss through the earth that in turn makes the breaker flip. Without grounding the wire that is exposed and touching something will (depending on material etc.) not transfer any current because of too high resistance, then as you touch it it will shock you and then the breaker will go off. (A loss power breaker, not a draw power breaker)

Perhaps you mean the neutral?

Re:LEDs may cause retinal toxicity at occupational domestic ... by lightedman on Friday January 06, 2017 @10:47AM (#13337145)
"How do you ground a light bulb, and a motor inside a plastic case?"

Same way you complete any other ground - since ground and neutral are literally on the same leg (go look at any installation. You've got TWO wires coming in at the mains, ungrounded.)

So, tell me, how do you ground those ungrounded 240/277V wires??

You don't. Both of them ARE the natural ground dependent upon whether you're at the peak or trough of the waveform. That's kinda how AC works.

Re:LEDs may cause retinal toxicity at occupational domestic ... by Freestyler_3 on Friday January 06, 2017 @02:16PM (#13339289)
Yes the neutral is ground basically.

Where I am from we have installations differently. phase and neutral come in the box, they go through a loss breaker(RCD) and then split up in to multiple breakers. Then those wires go to the socket. Then near the box there is a metal rod in the ground with a wire going to the box, this wire connects to the ground wires coming from sockets. The ground wire, is not connected to anything but things that are not supposed to have any power flowing through.

Yes Neutral is grounded (outside my house, on the main) But when we say we ground things we mean the third connection.

Sorry, didn't know it was so different over there.

edit: Saw the correct name for the "loss breaker" in other post, it is RCD :)

edit: Question, what happens if you hold the neutral to the ground wire there?

Re:LEDs may cause retinal toxicity at occupational domestic ... by lightedman on Friday January 06, 2017 @02:28PM (#13339390)
Yup, it's different over here. RCD (we call if GFCI here in the USA) tends to be built directly into the outlet, main breakers installed at the box. You guys generally tend to run 240/277V series-ring wire runs, though, yes? We run parallel circuits here.
Re:LEDs may cause retinal toxicity at occupational domestic ... by Freestyler_3 on Friday January 06, 2017 @05:12PM (#13340772)
240V, What we usually do here is run wires to a light point and fan out from there (the light fixture has a small box above it), small rooms can be grouped together by connecting the two boxes. Heavy appliance sockets get separate circuits, and kitchens usually have most circuits. So parallel mostly.
Re:LEDs may cause retinal toxicity at occupational domestic ... by Spare_account on Friday January 06, 2017 @11:49AM (#13337792)
ground and neutral are literally on the same leg (go look at any installation. You've got TWO wires coming in at the mains, ungrounded.)

Forgive my ignorance, I'm no electrical expert, but did you just say that the ground wire is connected to the neutral somewhere in the circuit? Or did I misunderstand you?

Re:LEDs may cause retinal toxicity at occupational domestic ... by lightedman on Friday January 06, 2017 @12:17PM (#13338090)
That's exactly right. Ground is always tied to neutral in a single-phase 120V installation. Open your breaker box and remove the front panel. You'll see it. http://i.imgur.com/hCY1jV0.png

EDIT: That "always" is assuming the house is modern wiring and not older-style two-prong wiring for the wall outlets. Those systems were just main and neutral at the box and controlled by a fusible link.

Re:LEDs may cause retinal toxicity at occupational domestic ... by Spare_account on Friday January 06, 2017 @01:10PM (#13338611)
Intriguing. I'm from the UK and I believe we do it differently here because I have an RCD on my earth bar in the consumer unit. The RCD detects current on the earth wire and cuts power to the circuit instantly. An earth fault doesn't trigger the circuit breaker, it triggers the RCD. A fault between live and neutral would trigger the circuit breaker.

If I'm understanding you correctly, in the US the ground wire is functionally identical to the neutral due to the bonding. Therefore (this is my own deduction and I'd appreciate being corrected if I'm wrong) you could, in theory, invert the ground and neutral wires in the plug of an electrical appliance and there would be no change in the behaviour or safety of the appliance?

Re:LEDs may cause retinal toxicity at occupational domestic ... by lightedman on Friday January 06, 2017 @02:25PM (#13339372)
"you could, in theory, invert the ground and neutral wires in the plug of an electrical appliance and there would be no change in the behaviour or safety of the appliance?"

Generally, no. I've seen backwards wiring jobs cause 48-80VAC to run through the casing of microwaves (they usually use the casing as a floating ground.) Any wiring inversion will usually cause some issue somewhere.

Re:LEDs may cause retinal toxicity at occupational domestic ... by Spare_account on Friday January 06, 2017 @02:58PM (#13339650)
This is fascinating, I'm reading lots of resources attempting to understand how this works. Thanks for your responses, I appreciate you taking the time to do that.
Re:LEDs may cause retinal toxicity at occupational domestic ... by Freestyler_3 on Friday January 06, 2017 @05:19PM (#13340829)
Re:LEDs may cause retinal toxicity at occupational domestic ... by Natanael_L on Friday January 06, 2017 @07:02AM (#13335662)
That device must be causing the powerline voltage to dip harder than normal (or otherwise screw with the voltage waveform), more than the capacitors in the AC/DC converter for the LED lights are designed to handle. And thus uneven current = flickering light.
Re:LEDs may cause retinal toxicity at occupational domestic ... by vmarsy on Thursday January 05, 2017 @05:46PM (#13332166)
As I mentioned in another comment[1], there is in this paper a 500 lux experiment where LED were found harmful.

[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13331492

Re:LEDs may cause retinal toxicity at occupational domestic ... by Franciscouzo on Thursday January 05, 2017 @06:43PM (#13332565)
Sun exposure can inhibit the development of myopia (on chicken):

http://iovs.arvojournals.org/article.aspx?articleid=2126968

Re:LEDs may cause retinal toxicity at occupational domestic ... by rahimnathwani on Thursday January 05, 2017 @08:46PM (#13333257)
Re:LEDs may cause retinal toxicity at occupational domestic ... by thecrazyone on Friday January 06, 2017 @07:56AM (#13335895)
Occam's razor would say that's an unneeded assumption (that there's a defense mechanism in the eyes) to explain observed results.

There are no results which say that our eyes are safer outside.

If you meant: "if we're safer outside then if we've a defense mechanism then we'd be safe "

That's already two "If"s deep and not a reasonable position to take :)