News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:I've removed all ad network code from my blog by vintageseltzer on Thursday January 05, 2017 @11:43AM (#13328616)
May I ask: if one is not "famous" (i.e. popular), why should one expect their site to be profitable from ads alone?

If my limited edition, 250-prints-per-month 'zine isn't making money, is that the advertising industry's fault, or is there an issue with my expectations?

People ask the "how do we fix dwindling ad-based revenue" question all the time. The answer is clear, it's just not what people want to hear: metered paywalls or a subscription model (or, you know, selling an actual product / service).

The inevitable response to that is, 'but I don't make enough money off of that.'

Well, there you go! To me, that's where it should end. You don't have enough of a readership to support your website as-is. That means you can continue doing it as a labor of love, scale it down to something you can manage and that is profitable, or just, well, accept that your site isn't as great as you thought it was, and that you won't be making as much money off of it as you thought.

Isn't this basic market forces at work? I have a suspicion that even if 50% of these sites bloated with ads and deceptive, click-bait content were to die, society as a whole would actually be much better off, and the efforts of people building these kinds of sites and expecting a return would be better directed elsewhere.

Re:I've removed all ad network code from my blog by cr0sh on Thursday January 05, 2017 @11:58AM (#13328814)
I kinda agree with you; I run a personal website, it isn't very popular (and I don't update it often - hmm, maybe there's a link there!) - but it is my website, and I've kept the domain active since 1998 or thereabouts.

ie - a "labor of love"

How do I pay for it? Well, I reach around to my back pocket for my wallet, and...

I don't have ads, I don't have a sponsorship, and I don't care - what I have and what I put on my website is strictly for myself and others to use or read as they see fit; I consider it a "giving back" to others out there for what the internet has given me over the years.

...and I am fine with that.

Other sites need to realize this too; not everything is worth money, and if you really love what you're doing, you'd give it away free. Like the internet used to be - everybody doing it for the love of networking and computing and knowledge and information transfer.

Not AOL spam making money crap.

Re:I've removed all ad network code from my blog by djsumdog on Thursday January 05, 2017 @02:23PM (#13330463)
I do too. I run PenguinDreams. I'm trying to post more, and am working on graphics so I can setup a Patreon. I'd like to be able to live off it, and I'll see how it goes.

I'm not famous, but I do love working on my own open source projects and I like writing tech posts. Last time I quit my job I lived for 11 months off my savings while travelling in over 10 countries. I got some OSS done, redid all my websites and wrote a lab manual for a friend of mine who was teaching a class based on the stuff I wrote.

My goal was to get into University and work on a PhD. I had attempted this a few years ago, but my grades for undergrand and grad school weren't all that great (2.5/3.2), and it pretty much killed my chances. I had some publications under my belt this time, but still very few professors would even talk to me about my work in sensor network research (BigSense).

I've spend over a decade in software. I do not enjoy being in industry. Even though I work remotely more now and less in the office, I still find my career choice mind numbing.

I'm going to try again soon, with more savings, so hopefully I can make it further before having to give up and having to find another software job.

Re:I've removed all ad network code from my blog by Laforet on Thursday January 05, 2017 @12:14PM (#13329008)
Seconded. I run two small websites with hundreds and sometimes thousands of PV per day on a server I am already using for other things. The only thing I really pay for is the domain which is a drop in the bucket anyway. I might give a random shoutout to Cloudflare here as well: Not everybody agree with their way of doing.things but from my point of view they've really helped to cut out a lot of work for personal websites.

To my knowledge, most people who make money on their websites are either big enough to monetise with sponsorship/subscription, or they'd run a number of smaller sites of no consequence nor unique content anyway. The latter has no real reason to exist.

Re:I've removed all ad network code from my blog by username223 on Thursday January 05, 2017 @04:56PM (#13331787)
Thank you!

I also have a personal site, and when Wordpress started shoving ads into their free blogs, I started paying a few bucks to host it ad-free. I recently published a book, and people can buy that if they want to thank me, or just keep reading my blog if they don't or can't. I will not sell out my readers (or "monetize my brand," or whatever you're supposed to call it), because I believe in the web as it used to be.

Re:I've removed all ad network code from my blog by Sir_Substance on Friday January 06, 2017 @04:46AM (#13335061)
You're the perfect personification of how the internet was meant to be used. Your kind of website is always my favorite.

None of my favorite websites update very frequently, but I still check them all regularly. In aggregate, theres always fresh content, and it's better content because the author actually wanted to write about it.

Thumbs up man!

Re:I've removed all ad network code from my blog by arjie on Thursday January 05, 2017 @12:19PM (#13329068)
> ...if you really love what you're doing, you'd give it away free.

This doesn't make sense. It follows logically that we should all not love what we do for a living. That strikes me as an absurd conclusion.

Re:I've removed all ad network code from my blog by dwaltrip on Thursday January 05, 2017 @12:33PM (#13329237)
If you can't make money from it, then it's not an absurd conclusion at all.

Of course, it means one needs a day job, but such is life.

Re:I've removed all ad network code from my blog by arjie on Thursday January 05, 2017 @12:43PM (#13329360)
Specifically, the day job shouldn't be too enjoyable if you're making money from it. Once it is, you should start doing it for free and find a job you find less enjoyable.

That just follows in a straightforward way. Now, this may not seem absurd to you, but I dare say it will to most people.

Re:I've removed all ad network code from my blog by smsm42 on Thursday January 05, 2017 @06:52PM (#13332619)
I think the original meaning was "if you love what you're doing, you would not mind doing it even if you're not being paid for it", not "if you love what you're doing, you would refuse to do it for pay, but only do it for free".

Signed, Captain Obvious

Re:I've removed all ad network code from my blog by dwaltrip on Thursday January 05, 2017 @12:50PM (#13329442)
I think that is reading into the quote too much, but I can see where you are coming from. I agree with you that such reasoning is a bit absurd.
Re:I've removed all ad network code from my blog by benchaney on Thursday January 05, 2017 @03:46PM (#13331232)
That only follows from what he said if you completely ignore the context. I honestly can't tell if you actually don't understand that, or if you are being deliberately clueless.
Re:I've removed all ad network code from my blog by arjie on Thursday January 05, 2017 @05:03PM (#13331850)
I think if you add in the context it becomes false.
Re:I've removed all ad network code from my blog by benchaney on Thursday January 05, 2017 @07:16PM (#13332761)
How so?
Re:I've removed all ad network code from my blog by Sir_Substance on Friday January 06, 2017 @04:47AM (#13335072)
>Specifically, the day job shouldn't be too enjoyable if you're making money from it. Once it is, you should start doing it for free and find a job you find less enjoyable.

More specifically, market forces dictate that if a job is all sparkles and lollipops, you don't need to pay people to do it, because they'll do it for free in their spare time. Thus, every job has downsides.

Re:I've removed all ad network code from my blog by prawn on Thursday January 05, 2017 @06:06PM (#13332318)
Sivers had a piece recently about balance in art and work. He suggested having a job that's purely about the money, and art on the side that is untroubled by concerns about commercial viability.

https://sivers.org/balance

Re:I've removed all ad network code from my blog by tilt_error on Friday January 06, 2017 @07:08AM (#13335689)
At some point I realized that my work situation consisted of a combination of "must do", "should do" and "want to do" -- only I never managed to get past the "must do" or occasional "should do" in my day job. So I frequently ended up with doing the things I wanted at non-payable time. It is better to invest that time in something you can carry away with you when you leave, which makes a good argument for having personal side projects -- granted you are not infringing on something.

I chose to switch employer and in the process got better control of the work items on my list -- to the cost of a heightened responsibility but also a better wage.

Re:I've removed all ad network code from my blog by cookiecaper on Thursday January 05, 2017 @09:05PM (#13333327)
Yeah, I think it's the incorrect conclusion too. If you really loved what you're doing, you'd try to find a way to monetize it so you could reclaim 1/3 of your earth-time from the drudgery of wage slavery and have much more freedom and opportunity to engage in the things you love.

Of course that's difficult and not always possible, but it doesn't mean one wouldn't, shouldn't, or couldn't try.

Re:I've removed all ad network code from my blog by CodeMage on Thursday January 05, 2017 @02:46PM (#13330666)
Of course it doesn't make sense when you remove the context. Here's the original, with the context properly included:

> not everything is worth money, and if you really love what you're doing, you'd give it away free

Re:I've removed all ad network code from my blog by hillz on Thursday January 05, 2017 @12:58PM (#13329537)
Yeah, that's fair. I'm doing the same thing with recipestasher.com. I lose about $400/yr on it, but I really like using it and so do a few other people. No ads, no clickbait crap. But, I realize that I'm quite privileged to be able to do it.
Re:I've removed all ad network code from my blog by smsm42 on Thursday January 05, 2017 @07:06PM (#13332700)
$33 per month doesn't seem like that big a deal to me, at least for somebody gainfully employed and residing in a first-world country. Many people spend as much on a meal, or 2 movie tickets (ticket to Rogue One in 3D costs $16.25 around here).
Re:I've removed all ad network code from my blog by munificent on Thursday January 05, 2017 @01:32PM (#13329892)
> The answer is clear, it's just not what people want to hear: metered paywalls or a subscription model (or, you know, selling an actual product / service).

That basically says the art only worth caring about is art produced by artists who produce a large, consistent volume of work.

Any one who produces small things, or infrequent things, falls under the threshold where the perceived effort to set up a subscription or pay is greater than the value of the content. They'll get nothing. Granularity and transaction size really matters, especially for the bite-sized content people consume on the web.

Your suggestion of paywalls and subscriptions is like a market that only deals in hundred dollar bills. How well would that work for your average mom-and-pop store or independent musician?

Re:I've removed all ad network code from my blog by imgabe on Thursday January 05, 2017 @04:55PM (#13331783)
Websites costing single digit dollars per month can handle thousands of visitors. At the mom-and-pop level you're talking about it, just about anyone working a job capable of supporting themselves can afford to put up a website.

And yes, the default state of art is for nobody to care about it. The art we care about tends to be exceptional. That's why we care about it.

Re:I've removed all ad network code from my blog by jdmichal on Thursday January 05, 2017 @06:12PM (#13332366)
I'm not sure art is the exemplar you want to bring up. There's a reason that the "starving artist" is a meme. And, previous to modern times, art was largely a patronage-based business.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patronage#Arts

Re:I've removed all ad network code from my blog by munificent on Friday January 06, 2017 @04:09PM (#13340227)
I never claimed earlier economic models for creative works were optimal either. :)

But I do think with today's increasingly short attention spans, the granularity of consuming creative works keeps going down, which makes the transaction friction more and more of a problem.

Re:I've removed all ad network code from my blog by cookiecaper on Thursday January 05, 2017 @09:09PM (#13333342)
The issue is that it's too difficult for readers to have a subscription to everything. Someone needs to come in and make a voluntary content network. Add the extension to your browser and it tracks which sites you spend your time on. Content providers get a payout at the end of the month reflecting the value that readers/subscribers derived that month. If someone without a subscription accesses the page, it will be a) monetized by ads or b) available under a limited free readership ceiling, like WSJ/NYT do (content providers could potentially be incentivized with a larger portion of proceeds to choose this option).

I know there are a couple of people working on something similar to this on HN, because I've mentioned something like it a few times and they've replied saying they're working on it. ;) There was one in particular that I was following, but I remember when they launched there was a fatal flaw in their model (maybe it was bitcoin only? I don't remember). I don't recall the name now.

Re:I've removed all ad network code from my blog by arebop on Thursday January 05, 2017 @10:04PM (#13333583)
Re:I've removed all ad network code from my blog by komali2 on Thursday January 05, 2017 @12:07PM (#13328915)
On the other hand, this will lead to us only being able to read the blogs and personal websites of people who are able to dip into their own money and time to make and host a blog.

I'd be very interested in reading about the life of exactly not that kind of person.

Re:I've removed all ad network code from my blog by bjterry on Thursday January 05, 2017 @04:41PM (#13331684)
Many of my favorite websites from the old Internet were exactly this, and I think it's sort of a shame that I can no longer find sites like that with Google. For example, I once read a site about this person's journey for the perfect pizza dough. It was obviously a labor of love and he had tried tons of permutations and research into the topic. The site was very web 1.0, presumably doesn't have great SEO, but the guy had better, more in-depth information than anything in the first several pages of the Google search results.

ALL THE TIME when I'm researching topics, I'll think about how there is probably someone out there for whom it's their one true passion, and they have probably put up a little website on some corner of the Internet with more research and depth than 1000 well SEOd blog sites, but it's completely impossible to find.

Edit: I found the pizza website, it was halfway down the second page of google's search results. I only clicked it because it was the only one without a picture http://www.varasanos.com/pizzarecipe.htm

Re:I've removed all ad network code from my blog by cookiecaper on Thursday January 05, 2017 @09:13PM (#13333365)
Massive amounts of content are locked away inside the walled gardens of social networks due to our antiquated network access and copyright laws. Most "small content" is being published on these networks instead of directly on the WWW these days.
Re:I've removed all ad network code from my blog by exergy on Thursday January 05, 2017 @10:45PM (#13333747)
That website is adorable. I miss stuff like that, finding blogs on the front page of google, not buzzfeed. It reminds me of Rocket Roberts, who has a giant page on how he built a small observatory in his backyard for amateur astronomy and astrophotography:

http://www.rocketroberts.com/astro/observatory.htm

Re:I've removed all ad network code from my blog by gtirloni on Friday January 06, 2017 @04:29AM (#13334955)
StumbleUpon is a nice service to find content like that
Re:I've removed all ad network code from my blog by kristianc on Friday January 06, 2017 @09:59AM (#13336690)
> Edit: I found the pizza website, it was halfway down the second page of google's search results. I only clicked it because it was the only one without a picture http://www.varasanos.com/pizzarecipe.htm

You can argue that this article is a case of the system working fairly well at surfacing high quality content. When I searched for "New York Pizza Recipe" this result came half way down page one.

Sure, there are other "high domain authority" listings on that page too, but this is an example of Google listing a well researched, in depth original post from a little known site on the basis of the strength of its content, even with quite minimal on page SEO.

You can argue about whether that's the right term to be optimizing for, but it's the term the writer chose to optimize for as it's the title of the page.

Re:I've removed all ad network code from my blog by JoshTriplett on Thursday January 05, 2017 @02:05PM (#13330282)
> On the other hand, this will lead to us only being able to read the blogs and personal websites of people who are able to dip into their own money and time to make and host a blog.

If you just want a blog or simple personal website, a hundred different services will host that for you for free, including Github, Wordpress, Tumblr, and others.

Re:I've removed all ad network code from my blog by ACow_Adonis on Thursday January 05, 2017 @04:06PM (#13331389)
Except you have to trade that off with the diluted-density of having the internet filled with all these people whose blogs and things are either specifically geared towards, if not toxically influenced by, making money and coddling up to advertisers.

And also it doesn't happen. Turns out people who want to write/paint will write/paint.

The internet was around before advertising. We had free sites back in the day. We've got free sites now. And we can fight for taxes to pay for public libraries, access points, community groups, or even philanthropists to set up free servers.

It was actually a pretty cool place (i thought). I mean, I use adblockers to try to simulate it, and am horrified every time I use the web at work without one, but even my ad blocker can't remove the influence and draw of content and material pumped out by money hungry people vs people actually interested in writing/painting/expressing its opinion for its own sake, and the way that profit motive subtly influences the ratio of content produced, and the content and style of that material as well.

Its much more liberating as an author to just say "fuck them", rather than continually go "well, it slows down the page load/breaks up the article, but it will result in 0.01% more views/might piss off my sponsors/industry".

Not so naive as to say that isn't always an issue, but its pretty clear to me what side of the line advertising is on...

Re:I've removed all ad network code from my blog by CIPHERSTONE on Thursday January 05, 2017 @03:24PM (#13331006)
I'd disagree with you a bit. It's perfectly possible to host a blog for free on Github or other sources (can even use jekyll themes) and just pay the yearly cost for a domain name. A domain name costs $10-20 a year. That's affordable.
Re:I've removed all ad network code from my blog by tejtm on Thursday January 05, 2017 @02:00PM (#13330225)
I am not expecting metered paywalls will help with that.
Re:I've removed all ad network code from my blog by nommm-nommm on Thursday January 05, 2017 @04:30PM (#13331597)
Tumblr, Live Journal, Blogger, (among others) are free and useful for just that.
Re:I've removed all ad network code from my blog by arjie on Thursday January 05, 2017 @11:50AM (#13328698)
Seems a bit disingenuous to suggest a paywall when the first thing anyone does on this website with a paywalled article is attempt to bypass. Such a bad faith move to say "use a paywall" and then promptly follow it up with "and I'll try to bypass it to access the content".
Re:I've removed all ad network code from my blog by tokenizerrr on Thursday January 05, 2017 @12:06PM (#13328902)
If a site wishes to implement a paywall that is their right. If they wish to implement a bypass, that is also just fine. They choose to implement this bypass because they wish to be indexed by Google. So why shouldn't we make use of that intentionally implement bypass?
Re:I've removed all ad network code from my blog by arjie on Thursday January 05, 2017 @12:15PM (#13329016)
Do whatever you find ethical. I'm just here to ensure that people are well informed about the fact that paywall vs. ads is actually paywall with no search engine access vs. paywall which people won't pay for vs. ads.

I'm all right with the paywall idea succeeding or failing in a well informed marketplace of ideas.

Re:I've removed all ad network code from my blog by tokenizerrr on Thursday January 05, 2017 @12:21PM (#13329097)
Some people pay for the paywall. Especially when these people regularly consume your content. People stumbling in from social media (such as HN) are not regular consumers. Big difference, there.
Re:I've removed all ad network code from my blog by Spivak on Thursday January 05, 2017 @03:53PM (#13331282)
I've got a subscription to LWN, I don't think they really care about being indexed by search engines.

The ability to send interesting articles to non-subscribers with a special link is pretty nice but I understand that it probably wouldn't work as a model for large websites.

Re:I've removed all ad network code from my blog by nradov on Thursday January 05, 2017 @08:54PM (#13333283)
It works for WSJ.com, which is a large website.
Re:I've removed all ad network code from my blog by robryan on Thursday January 05, 2017 @10:21PM (#13333642)
If the paywall can't be bypassed a website won't get linked anywhere and will lose most of it's traffic. The biggest media sites in the world struggle to make this model work.
Re:I've removed all ad network code from my blog by emrgx on Thursday January 05, 2017 @03:40PM (#13331172)
>>Isn't this basic market forces at work? I have a suspicion that even if 50% of these sites bloated with ads and deceptive, click-bait content were to die, society as a whole would actually be much better off, and the efforts of people building these kinds of sites and expecting a return would be better directed elsewhere.

I agree. Most news sites just regurgitate the same articles with their own click bait title which takes you to some adware bloated page. I think there's plenty of money in online ads but the market is too saturated.

Re:I've removed all ad network code from my blog by munchbunny on Thursday January 05, 2017 @05:28PM (#13332038)
You have a point that people who aren't famous wouldn't be getting much money anyway. But that's not exactly the criticism.

The criticism is that someone who doesn't have a large viewer base isn't in a position to get sponsors, so this approach is literally not viable until you're big enough that sponsors would even think about it.

Most people aren't that big.

Re:I've removed all ad network code from my blog by Melk on Thursday January 05, 2017 @03:15PM (#13330942)
That's a surprising statement coming from an otherwise libertarian leaning HN. The ad market is one of the largest and most successful of the 21st century. Isn't that the definition of a market economy?

Until recently OP monetized his blog with ads. Should he have given up before his blog was popular enough to switch to sponsors?

Re:I've removed all ad network code from my blog by tikwidd on Thursday January 05, 2017 @06:49PM (#13332603)
Re:I've removed all ad network code from my blog by euske on Thursday January 05, 2017 @06:47PM (#13332585)
I personally agree with you, but this sounds like a typical "get big or get out" argument. There could be some middle grounds.