News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:The Middle Class Can't Afford to Live in Cities Anymore by mhneu on Saturday December 31, 2016 @02:29PM (#13292675)
It's not just housing policy that's gone wrong, it's transit policy. We haven't built good public transit in our cities, and now that cars are filling all available roads, even houses far away from cities are too expensive for how long commutes are.

We wish we had a train system in many cities that allowed the middle class to live 40-60 minutes away from their jobs.

Ultimately however the main problem is wealth inequality. If median income had increased with GDP since 1980, instead of all gains going to the 0.01%, you would be able to afford to live in the suburbs of San Diego.

Re:The Middle Class Can't Afford to Live in Cities Anymore by Fricken on Saturday December 31, 2016 @04:40PM (#13293320)
It ultimately boils down to simple supply and demand. Want to live in a nice, walkable medium density neighbourhood with good amenities? Sorry, America stopped building those 60 years ago. Why did we stop building them, and why can't we build more now? The answer to that is long, convoluted and tragic.
Re:The Middle Class Can't Afford to Live in Cities Anymore by nopinsight on Sunday January 01, 2017 @10:08AM (#13295950)
Do you have an article or other links from which we can learn more about the reasons? A summary of the long answer would be helpful too.

Since the demand for such cities is quite high--a large number of middle class voters would like to live in one--would a mobilization of political will enable us to change to situation somewhat, at least over the medium to long term?

Re:The Middle Class Can't Afford to Live in Cities Anymore by m0llusk on Sunday January 01, 2017 @11:14AM (#13296142)
Strongtowns.org might be a good place to start.
Re:The Middle Class Can't Afford to Live in Cities Anymore by Redoubts on Sunday January 01, 2017 @06:28PM (#13298027)
Cool link, thanks!
Re:The Middle Class Can't Afford to Live in Cities Anymore by tobylane on Saturday December 31, 2016 @05:03PM (#13293438)
London, cities in Europe in general have good transport but not great housing options. London just overtook the pre war population (within a green belt set just after the war). Nearly everywhere is within a mile of a station, only one tiny spot is four miles away. It's all about affordable housing. We as a country are building half of what we need.
Re:The Middle Class Can't Afford to Live in Cities Anymore by vidoc on Saturday December 31, 2016 @09:37PM (#13294423)
London as more than decent public transportation indeed, plus it has this rather extreme car policy we all know about (which by the way I am sure the super rich actually love!). The thing is, I've always wondered why public transportation is so outrageously expensive there. Actually, even with the Oyster card, the rates strike me as rather extreme. I'd love to hear a Londonese on this.
Re:The Middle Class Can't Afford to Live in Cities Anymore by crdoconnor on Saturday December 31, 2016 @10:20PM (#13294519)
It's partly because the underground is 154 years old, which carries with it its own set of maintenance headaches, partly because of the "public private partnership" programs from 2000s onwards that were set up as a means to extract money from the system and partly because they pay reasonably good wages.
Re:The Middle Class Can't Afford to Live in Cities Anymore by vidoc on Saturday December 31, 2016 @11:15PM (#13294678)
Do most londonese share this feeling of mine that it's kinda expensive or this is just me being a bit dumb? :)
Re:The Middle Class Can't Afford to Live in Cities Anymore by tobylane on Tuesday January 03, 2017 @11:20AM (#13310170)
The parts run by the local government (Transport for London) are cheaper than or required to be the same as the private franchises organised by the national government. The TfL parts are far better, I think that even if they were the same price the vast majority would say TfL do better.
Re:The Middle Class Can't Afford to Live in Cities Anymore by user5994461 on Sunday January 01, 2017 @03:55PM (#13297301)
The other places I've been were not qualified of "expensive" because they had dramatic discounts for the privileged ones. e.g. student 18-25 age 10€ - worker 25-65 age 50€ - no work 25-65 free pass if you send a paper to request it.
Re:The Middle Class Can't Afford to Live in Cities Anymore by ido on Sunday January 01, 2017 @05:00AM (#13295280)
It certainly surprised me as a tourist- for example Berlin's network is not much less extensive but cost a fraction to use.
Re:The Middle Class Can't Afford to Live in Cities Anymore by kansface on Saturday December 31, 2016 @04:18PM (#13293211)
> Ultimately however the main problem is wealth inequality. If median income had increased with GDP since 1980, instead of all gains going to the 0.01%, you would be able to afford to live in the suburbs of San Diego.

The problem of income inequality is one and the same as the housing crisis - ie, the wealth gap is nearly entirely explained by real estate.

Re:The Middle Class Can't Afford to Live in Cities Anymore by mhneu on Saturday December 31, 2016 @04:51PM (#13293380)
No, the wealth gap is not explained by real estate.

The problem is that the 0.01% -- households worth more than ~$100M -- have received almost all the wealth gains since 1980. That's not just real estate -- it has to do with globalization as well as tax and policy decision.

So the very rich have gotten much richer, while median incomes (I.e. middle class incomes) have not increased.

See Fig 1 of this paper: https://gabriel-zucman.eu/files/SaezZucman2014.pdf

Re:The Middle Class Can't Afford to Live in Cities Anymore by sobani on Monday January 02, 2017 @04:01AM (#13299957)
According to [1] the return from 1980 to now is 57.5 fold. So anyone who started with 'just' 2M would have ended up with more than 100M.

It's not surprising that those who started with the most, also got the most gains.

[1] http://www.moneychimp.com/features/market_cagr.htm

Re:The Middle Class Can't Afford to Live in Cities Anymore by hsitz on Saturday December 31, 2016 @04:55PM (#13293402)
Can you give a cite to any statistics or resources that suggest that real estate fully explains the wealth gap? The ultra-wealthy tend to have much higher percentage of their assets in securities than real estate. So that real estate explains the entire wealth gap sounds curious, although perhaps not impossible. I just have no idea how that could be.
Re:The Middle Class Can't Afford to Live in Cities Anymore by crdoconnor on Saturday December 31, 2016 @05:08PM (#13293456)
>wealth gap is nearly entirely explained by real estate.

1) Reagan fired the air traffic controllers in 1981.

2) This set off a wave of anti-union action - http://www.alternet.org/story/154595/how_ronald_reagan_broke... - causing the great decoupling of wages and productivity: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/45/Producti...

3) ...which caused staggering levels of wealth inequality: http://www.bankers-anonymous.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/...

4) And all that accumulated wealth ended up being lent back in the form of loans (e.g. student loans), mortgages as well as bidding up the price of real estate which your grandma - a 'boomer' profited a small amount from - which is why this is actually all her fault.

Re:The Middle Class Can't Afford to Live in Cities Anymore by forrestthewoods on Saturday December 31, 2016 @02:42PM (#13292759)
Inequality is not the problem. The problem is there are more people who want to live somewhere than there are houses. With perfect equality there would still be more people than houses.

The one and only fix is more houses. That's it. Any other solution is just picking winners and losers different ways. But no matter which way you pick the same number of people win and the same number lose.

Re:The Middle Class Can't Afford to Live in Cities Anymore by unclebucknasty on Saturday December 31, 2016 @03:07PM (#13292892)
>The one and only fix is more houses

Unfortunately, it's not that simple. The heart of the problem in many parts of the country is that we fund our schools with property taxes.

Hence, a cycle of better schools and increased demand in concentrated areas, which causes the supply-demand imbalance and price increases. Compounding this is the fact that people in such areas actively block "higher density" housing, which naturally means fewer houses per acre.

Building more houses would help to a limited extent, but the shortage would still exist and resistance is stout.

Hence, the shortage of housing is just a symptom of how we fund education, which is the real problem.

>Inequality is not the problem

Inequality absolutely enters here because if wealth/income were more evenly distributed, then funding for schools would be more evenly distributed, thus alleviating concentrated housing demand in small areas with better schools and driving up prices.

Re:The Middle Class Can't Afford to Live in Cities Anymore by ghaff on Saturday December 31, 2016 @03:17PM (#13292925)
I'm not sure I understand your comment. Public schools in dense cities tend to be almost universally bad--in spite of often being funded at significantly higher per-student levels than even relatively tony suburbs that have high-performing schools. If you look at Massachusetts public high schools for example, the one public high school in Cambridge (where housing has gotten very expensive) has some of the highest per-pupil spending and is in the bottom tier of test results.
Re:The Middle Class Can't Afford to Live in Cities Anymore by msabalau on Saturday December 31, 2016 @06:52PM (#13293859)
Unlike the suburbs you valorize, Cambridge hasn't shut out the poor, makes large investments in public housing. 45% of Cambridge students take free or subsided lunches. What the MCAS results actually show is when we take kids of out wealth segregated neighborhood elementary and middle schools, and put them into a single, unified high school, test score rise dramatically.

If Concord schools had to take any number of first generation impoverished immigrants with poor English language skills, their test scores would implode. That doesn't happen, because working class immigrants don't buy the $800K homes in Concord.

Re:The Middle Class Can't Afford to Live in Cities Anymore by ghaff on Saturday December 31, 2016 @07:20PM (#13293982)
You might try reading sometime. It's a useful skill. I wasn't valorizing anything. I was responding to a comment that didn't understand why denser city schools could cost more per pupil than suburban schools.
Re:The Middle Class Can't Afford to Live in Cities Anymore by unclebucknasty on Saturday December 31, 2016 @03:31PM (#13292993)
Hmm. It's a little hard to imagine that per-student funding in high-density city schools outstrips that for truly wealthier and presumably sparser suburbs with any significant consistency. I'd want to see the actual numbers. For instance, where is this funding coming from for the cities? And, where is the suburban tax money going?

And, what's the history? Were these schools neglected for years, then the state recently started pouring in money?

I mean, maybe there are some exceptions (perhaps partially gentrified cities where some tax base is moving back into cities at inflated prices?), but these would generally be outliers. Since wealthier people have fled most major cities for the burbs, the tax base and educational investments have generally followed them. You see this over and over again in communities throughout the country.

For example:

http://www.npr.org/2016/04/18/474256366/why-americas-schools...

Re:The Middle Class Can't Afford to Live in Cities Anymore by ghaff on Saturday December 31, 2016 @03:53PM (#13293085)
OK. For Massachusetts 2015, to pick a town and a city that each have one high school and are both expensive property values.

Cambridge (expensive city) $27,569 per pupil

Concord (expensive suburb) $17,517 per pupil

http://profiles.doe.mass.edu/state_report/ppx.aspx

Rankings

Cambridge Ringe and Latin was 214 out of 340

Concord Carlisle High was 27 out of 340

https://www.schooldigger.com/go/MA/schoolrank.aspx?level=3

Not cherry-picked data.

A lot of the difference is that cities, even expensive ones, are cities. A lot more diverse student body. A lot more students with problems at home. More disruption, etc. You can spend more money but the average student in the city school almost certainly has less parental involvement and less of a home environment that's conducive to learning than in the tony suburb.

The linked article (and decades of debate) notwithstanding, it's also hard to really correlate spending per pupil with educational outcomes past a certain point--especially as measured on standardized tests. Poorer cities do spend less. Two Lawrence high schools have the worst test results in Massachusetts. But its spending, $14,475 per pupil, is still only a bit less than Concord.

Re:The Middle Class Can't Afford to Live in Cities Anymore by ashark on Saturday December 31, 2016 @04:11PM (#13293173)
> Hmm. It's a little hard to imagine that per-student funding in high-density city schools outstrips that for truly wealthier and presumably sparser suburbs with any significant consistency.

Definitely does in my city. Teacher pay's also substantially higher in the inner city schools. Most teachers still don't want to work there because they're stuck in a seemingly-inescapable poverty-and-culture-driven "bad homes -> bad students -> burnt-out and bitter faculty" rut, which makes them a discouraging, abusive, and dangerous hell for faculty and students alike.

Source: my wife and probably half my circle of friends are teachers.

[EDIT] in fact, some of the better suburban schools pay worse than the so-so suburban schools, let alone the high-paying inner city ones, because they can. Good teachers will still work there because the environment is nicer and more rewarding (that is, the students are way easier to teach, and the community tends to be supportive)

Re:The Middle Class Can't Afford to Live in Cities Anymore by mtbcoder on Saturday December 31, 2016 @03:13PM (#13292914)
The fix is to make more areas desirable to live in by reducing income inequality and stimulating local economies (which in turn creates more desirable locations). Simply saying build "more houses" in clustered cities along the coasts doesn't solve anything in the long run. Cities are in it for the long run.
Re:The Middle Class Can't Afford to Live in Cities Anymore by forrestthewoods on Saturday December 31, 2016 @04:35PM (#13293295)
San Francisco is not nearly dense enough. It can support a lot more housing. Easily. It's just NIMBYs and cronies in the way.

Despite having significant growth opportunity San Fran is already twice as dense as Seattle. Therefore Seattle has room for explosive housing growth. It would need more changes than just housing of course. But that's to be expected and totally doable.

Cities are huge economic multipliers. We don't need more cities yet. The ones we have are perfectly great! We need to more efficiently use what we already have.

This housing crisis isn't affecting just "top tier" cities. It's not just New York and San Fran. It's Seattle. It's Denver, Austin, and Portland. It's even Nashville!

Every city, top to bottom, needs to be doing more. And they need to start now as the longer they wait the more expensive the infrastructure adjustments become.

Re:The Middle Class Can't Afford to Live in Cities Anymore by ghaff on Saturday December 31, 2016 @04:55PM (#13293403)
>It can support a lot more housing

So long as you also build all the transportation, schooling, utility, and other infrastructure needed to support it.

Re:The Middle Class Can't Afford to Live in Cities Anymore by forrestthewoods on Saturday December 31, 2016 @05:11PM (#13293468)
All the city needs to do is literally nothing. Just stand back and stay out of the way. Sadly this is one of the hardest things for a bureaucracy to do.
Re:The Middle Class Can't Afford to Live in Cities Anymore by ghaff on Saturday December 31, 2016 @05:15PM (#13293495)
Because schooling and public transit and such will just happen automagically?
Re:The Middle Class Can't Afford to Live in Cities Anymore by forrestthewoods on Saturday December 31, 2016 @06:17PM (#13293725)
Public transportation is a 20th century solution. If cities do nothing autonomous vehicles will revolutionize transportation wants within 20 years. Which is as fast or faster than major public transportation projects would take.

Additional housing will result in a larger tax base which will automatically cover additional schooling needs.

Re:The Middle Class Can't Afford to Live in Cities Anymore by Eridrus on Sunday January 01, 2017 @03:21PM (#13297125)
It's not a guarantee that self-drive for cars will not lead to more use and more congestion in cities which are not upgrading their transit.

I am hopeful for autonomous app hailed buses, but there's definitely a big chance it doesn't all work out that way, and even then there is clearly still a physical limit on how much existing road infrastructure can handle.

Re:The Middle Class Can't Afford to Live in Cities Anymore by mtbcoder on Saturday December 31, 2016 @05:15PM (#13293497)
More desirable areas means more areas for developers to build housing. Cities cannot do more with a citizenry that is unable to keep the local economy and government institutions afloat. These cities are in a horrendous feedback loop that is seeing their economies and tax bases decimated. It all begins and ends with income inequality.
Re:The Middle Class Can't Afford to Live in Cities Anymore by forrestthewoods on Saturday December 31, 2016 @06:57PM (#13293881)
> that is seeing their economies and tax bases decimated

Wat? That is literally the opposite of reality.

The problem is cities are TOO POPULAR. Cities so successful that only the rich can afford to live in them! Increased property values, more property tax revenue, higher resident earnings and spendings. Cities aren't being decimated. Cities are so economically successful that poor people are being forced out so more rich people can move in!

The article, titled "The Middle Class Can't Afford to Live in Cities Anymore" is about people earning $50,000 to $125,000 who can't afford housing in cities. It's not about rural or rust belt communities with no jobs. Housing is plenty cheap in those areas. They just lack the jobs to go with it. A very real but very different problem.

Re:The Middle Class Can't Afford to Live in Cities Anymore by Svenskunganka on Saturday December 31, 2016 @03:45PM (#13293054)
I believe there's another option; make the cities more attractive (and affordable) to live in for the middle class. You can see this across European cities, which is explained really well in this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aQSxPzafO_k

It's easy to say and hard to do, but concerns like a good neighborhood or decent commute when looking for living arrangements in the cities is definitely not as common in Europe as it is in the US.

Re:The Middle Class Can't Afford to Live in Cities Anymore by closeparen on Saturday December 31, 2016 @04:06PM (#13293147)
The cities are attractive, too attractive, that's why prices are so high. We do not have a demand shortage. We have a supply shortage.
Re:The Middle Class Can't Afford to Live in Cities Anymore by Svenskunganka on Saturday December 31, 2016 @04:36PM (#13293300)
I'd say that every major city across the continents have a supply shortage, that's the nature of cities, but I haven't heard of any city in Europe not affordable to live in for the middle class. Surely the good 'ol supply & demand are influencing the pricing, but I believe there must be something external that has caused this.
Re:The Middle Class Can't Afford to Live in Cities Anymore by enjo on Saturday December 31, 2016 @04:53PM (#13293389)
but I haven't heard of any city in Europe not affordable to live in for the middle class

http://www.globalpropertyguide.com/most-expensive-cities

You will find that European cities are very expensive to buy in and equally bad to rent in. Paris, Geneva, London, Helsinki, Stockholm, etc... all suffer from the exact same issues we're now seeing in American cities.

You could argue that the make-up of those cities are superior, as their suburbs are much more compact and urban connected with much better public transportation. This coupled with a culture that is much more ok with living in small spaces helps the middle class immensely.

In terms of a priced out middle class, however, the United States is really just catching up to the rest of the world.

Re:The Middle Class Can't Afford to Live in Cities Anymore by aerique on Saturday December 31, 2016 @04:51PM (#13293377)
Amsterdam, at least, is not affordable to live in for the middle class. This is a problem recognized by our government.
Re:The Middle Class Can't Afford to Live in Cities Anymore by CountSessine on Saturday December 31, 2016 @04:49PM (#13293363)
Yes - that's because they don't have a supply problem; they don't do stupid things like zone their cities to prioritize single family detached homes. European cities are dense and if we want North American cities to be similarly liveable, we need to rezone to allow greater density and increased supply.
Re:The Middle Class Can't Afford to Live in Cities Anymore by candiodari on Sunday January 01, 2017 @01:14AM (#13294882)
Can Americans stop with the "surely it's better elsewhere" crap ? No it's not better in Europe. Either you go to a capital or second tier city with jobs, and pay ridiculous rates. Buy, rent, doesn't matter. Or you go to a normal city and commute in. That adds 2-4 hours to your working day and 50-150 euros to your (effective) monthly rent, but provides you with a much better place to live.

Or of course you go to rust belt equivalent communities. Northern Spain. Southern Italy. Very cheap, beautiful even, housing for no money whatsoever. And not a chance in hell of finding a job there.

Re:The Middle Class Can't Afford to Live in Cities Anymore by spacemanmatt on Sunday January 01, 2017 @06:33AM (#13295457)
Then why are there so many empty houses?
Re:The Middle Class Can't Afford to Live in Cities Anymore by cynicalkane on Saturday December 31, 2016 @03:26PM (#13292970)
There are two fixes, which must be done simultaneously: more housing and more transportation infrastructure.

Our modern economy wants to centralize in cities, and not doing so is leaving free lunch on the table. Also keep in mind that more people in cities = cheaper suburbs for those who prefer it.

Re:The Middle Class Can't Afford to Live in Cities Anymore by forrestthewoods on Saturday December 31, 2016 @03:59PM (#13293114)
Improved transportation infrastructure is a valid way of increases the number of homes available to job centers.

Increased centralization in cities is a bit of a problem. But cities are such an economic multiplier that it's difficult not to. That's a tougher nut to crack.

Re:The Middle Class Can't Afford to Live in Cities Anymore by paublyrne on Sunday January 01, 2017 @04:00PM (#13297320)
Yes but there is also the issue of unoccupied or semi occupied properties which needs to be addressed. When an owner can make more money airbnbning a property to visitors than fulltime local tenants this hurts the city.
Re:The Middle Class Can't Afford to Live in Cities Anymore by spacemanmatt on Sunday January 01, 2017 @06:31AM (#13295452)
The dearth of quality education drives the housing inequality significantly. Funding schools adequately would have a profound effect on property values.