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Re:Why is Mail Online going after the fact checkers? by ikeboy on Friday December 23, 2016 @09:58PM (#13248348)
It's poor form for the guardian to not link the original article, at http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4042194/Facebook-fac...

The guardian article is a hit piece, and a poorly written one at that. It gives very little information and a lot of vague or indirect criticism. (Makes you think how much more effective hit pieces can be when the writer actually has something to work with: even this will probably convince a lot of people that critiques of snopes are invalid.)

On priors I'd expect there to be issues with the mail article, but the guardian doesn't tell me what they are.

Re:Why is Mail Online going after the fact checkers? by anigbrowl on Friday December 23, 2016 @11:09PM (#13248527)
It's a hit piece, but then so is the Daily Mail article, and the DM has been a scandal sheet for most of its history.
Re:Why is Mail Online going after the fact checkers? by ikeboy on Friday December 23, 2016 @11:15PM (#13248556)
Yeah but I have higher expectations from the guardian.
Re:Why is Mail Online going after the fact checkers? by caf on Friday December 23, 2016 @10:23PM (#13248408)
It's not a "hit piece" any more than your comment is. It's an opinion piece.
Re:Why is Mail Online going after the fact checkers? by cloakandswagger on Friday December 23, 2016 @10:42PM (#13248446)
A pretty bizarre opinion at that. They seem to be suggesting that all of those knighted with "fact checker" status should be above criticism/investigation, and anyone who does shine a light at them is just "afraid of the truth."

I happen to think that the founder of Snopes embezzling $98K and spending it on prostitutes is relevant, as it throws their entire journalistic credibility into question.

Re:Why is Mail Online going after the fact checkers? by anigbrowl on Friday December 23, 2016 @11:06PM (#13248515)
Why does it throw all their journalistic credibility into question? When I consult Snopes, I care about the predictive power of the the information they share, ie whether it will inform me accurately enough to guess where the story will go. I use it for additional data points rather than to form a conclusion, although I appreciate the thoroughness when they go to the trouble of exploring historical context etc.

So the founder of Snopes may be financially dishonest and driven by sex thrills...but this doesn't invalidate their research on external questions. It's not like I looked to them for moral guidance about, well, anything.

Re:Why is Mail Online going after the fact checkers? by BummyMon on Saturday December 24, 2016 @12:50AM (#13248785)
Which is the correct approach if you need a debunking of whether there are alligators in the swears, but if they are expanding their business to fact checking moralistic/political claims, how would that then differ from you seeking them for for moral guidance?
Re:Why is Mail Online going after the fact checkers? by anigbrowl on Saturday December 24, 2016 @02:15PM (#13251193)
if they are expanding their business to fact checking moralistic/political claims

I'll worry about that if/when it happens. I have no difficulty distinguishing between factual and editorial content, and I generally only consult Snopes after I've done some research of my own and drawn a preliminary conclusion.

Re:Why is Mail Online going after the fact checkers? by cloakandswagger on Friday December 23, 2016 @11:16PM (#13248559)
I'm going to answer this question under the assumption that you truly don't understand some of the core tenets regarding journalistic integrity.

On the surface, your argument is correct; the facts are the facts, and no amount of moral corruption will change that. Things get hairy when you remember that our world is anything other than black and white: facts can be distorted, misrepresented or ignored to deliver an entirely different message, even if they are still (technically) "factual".

This is why you don't want a known sleazebag for a reporter. Not only do they have a provably skewed moral compass that would let them deviate from pure "fact-based" reporting, there is also a safe assumption that they have other, worse skeletons in their closet which would mean they're susceptible to being blackmailed into deviating from pure "fact-based" reporting.

Re:Why is Mail Online going after the fact checkers? by dang on Saturday December 24, 2016 @12:34AM (#13248729)
Please edit personal swipes, such as the first sentence here, out of the comments you post to HN. This comment would be fine without that.
Re:Why is Mail Online going after the fact checkers? by cloakandswagger on Saturday December 24, 2016 @09:41AM (#13249924)
That disclaimer was only there so the rest of the post wouldn't seem patronizing.
Re:Why is Mail Online going after the fact checkers? by anigbrowl on Saturday December 24, 2016 @02:24PM (#13251233)
Perhaps you should have focused more on avoiding a false equivalence of fact-checking with journalism, as if a) Snopes were an originator of news and rumors rather than being responsive to them, and b) their popularity relied on a perception of the founders' personal integrity as opposed to a history of providing verifiable links to contrary information and narrowly reasoned argument.
Re:Why is Mail Online going after the fact checkers? by dang on Saturday December 24, 2016 @12:58PM (#13250832)
Interpretations always differ, but that statement does seem patronizing to me.

Communicating in a large internet forum is quite different than in small groups or in person. Among other things, it's much harder to communicate intent, so it's best to either (a) state intent explicitly or (b) edit the post so that it isn't so vulnerable to crossed signals.

Re:Why is Mail Online going after the fact checkers? by camtarn on Friday December 23, 2016 @10:04PM (#13248360)
[edit] I completely misread the comment above as asking Hacker News to link to the original source article, not for the Guardian to have linked it. My bad, and I agree with the parent.

For any other reputable news source I'd totally agree - but in this case, it's poor form to give the Daily Mail your ad revenue. This is not any regular newspaper: it is a mouthpiece for an organised hate campaign aimed at stirring up political tensions against immigrants, the disabled and out of work, and other 'undesirables' - which just also happens to be really good at writing social-media-friendly celebrity stories.

Re:Why is Mail Online going after the fact checkers? by ikeboy on Friday December 23, 2016 @10:08PM (#13248369)
If you're writing a journalistic article and you're criticising something, you better have a very good reason for not linking it. They barely summarised it.

The reasons you gave don't rise to that level.

If the other critique I made—that they don't actually mention anything wrong with the mail article— wouldn't be the case, it wouldn't be as bad.

But the fact that they didn't make any substantive critiques of the article and didn't link it makes it a hit piece.

Re:Why is Mail Online going after the fact checkers? by camtarn on Friday December 23, 2016 @10:10PM (#13248375)
I apologise - I totally misread your comment, and thought it was a request for Hacker News to have linked to the Daily Mail article. Yes, I agree that the Guardian should have linked to it.
Re:Why is Mail Online going after the fact checkers? by ikeboy on Friday December 23, 2016 @10:12PM (#13248381)
Guess I wasn't clear, I edited my comment above. Thanks for that.
Re:Why is Mail Online going after the fact checkers? by mst on Saturday December 24, 2016 @04:03PM (#13251612)
> If you're writing a journalistic article and you're criticising something, you better have a very good reason for not linking it.

I think "I want to talk about their attitude to fake news, not further spread the salacious details of their only-sort-of-related coverage" is ... a reason.

I think saying basically that, and providing a link afterwards that one would hope readers would choose not to click, would've been a better approach from a broadsheet.