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Re:Scribd CTO: “We Are Scrapping Flash And Betting The Compa... by thiele on Wednesday May 05, 2010 @06:21PM (#1322795)
"Betting the company"? Sounds a little dramatic. It's HTML5 not Silverlight. How much risk is there really?
Re:Scribd CTO: “We Are Scrapping Flash And Betting The Compa... by teej on Wednesday May 05, 2010 @06:44PM (#1322887)
There's always risk in changing the technology platform of your core product.

Things to consider:

- What development tools will devs use?

- How long will it take devs to get up to speed on them?

- How does debugging work?

- How do you handle losing breakpoints?

- What does the new build process look like?

- How are you going to handle graceful degradation?

- How does font-end error reporting work?

- How long will it take to make the migration?

- What business metrics are you tracking to acknowledge you made the right user choice? The right technology choice?

- How soon will we see the needle move on those business metrics?

- How will this affect growth in the short term?

- Do your hardcore Flash employees want to be working in HTML5? What will you do if they don't?

Major technology shifts are a lot more complicated than just "code it and see what happens" when you have an established product and team.

Re:Scribd CTO: “We Are Scrapping Flash And Betting The Compa... by apphacker on Wednesday May 05, 2010 @11:28PM (#1323455)
Losing breakpoints? Why would they lose breakpoints? Maybe I misunderstand but you can debug JavaScript with breakpoints.
Re:Scribd CTO: “We Are Scrapping Flash And Betting The Compa... by FlorinAndrei on Wednesday May 05, 2010 @06:22PM (#1322804)
My thoughts exactly. HTML5 is going to be (or is already) everywhere, so where's the big risk?
Re:Scribd CTO: “We Are Scrapping Flash And Betting The Compa... by matthiaskramm on Wednesday May 05, 2010 @06:38PM (#1322861)
Investment risk. Scribd is a small company, and putting a whole battalion of developers on a PDF to HTML5 conversion for half a year without even knowing whether that'll turn out to be possible (as in, good enough for 10,000,000 documents) is a scary move. That being said, check out our upcoming engineering blog for technical details about how we convert to HTML5 now!
Re:Scribd CTO: “We Are Scrapping Flash And Betting The Compa... by axod on Wednesday May 05, 2010 @06:41PM (#1322873)
"putting a whole battalion of developers on a PDF to HTML5 conversion for half a year without even knowing whether that'll turn out to be possible"

The Google pdf viewer seems good enough to me. It'll be interesting to see what you can improve on that.

Re:Scribd CTO: “We Are Scrapping Flash And Betting The Compa... by bobbyi on Wednesday May 05, 2010 @06:58PM (#1322925)
Actual pdf readers like Preview seem good enough to me. I don't understand why I would need to take a PDF and view it as HTML.

I do see the value for formats like .pptx where I may not have a reader, but PDF is already a "lowest common denominator" like HTML.

Re:Scribd CTO: “We Are Scrapping Flash And Betting The Compa... by sesqu on Wednesday May 05, 2010 @07:13PM (#1322959)
I've occasionally been thankful for Google's PDF conversion. PDF isn't a lowest common denominator - there are computers without that capability (kiosks and terminals, for example). What's more, PDF viewers can be pretty heavy, especially for fancy documents, and their browser integration tends to suck even when it exists.

Sure, I like reading my PDFs with evince, but sometimes HTML is just preferrable.

Re:Scribd CTO: “We Are Scrapping Flash And Betting The Compa... by Kadin on Thursday May 06, 2010 @01:48PM (#1324999)
Downloading a separate file and then launching an external application is obnoxious, particularly when it creates a new window. I know a lot of people who actively avoid and refuse to click on PDF links for that reason.

I've always thought that the best solution would be for browsers to just include PDF rendering support alongside HTML. PDF is a popular enough format on the web that it should really be handled by the browser as a core feature, not by some add-on or external application. I really liked Apple's Safari for this reason (although I dumped it for Firefox because of AdBlockPlus).

Done right it would seem like perhaps some of the higher-level rendering layers of the browser could be reused, regardless of whether the underlying content was PDF or HTML. (In fact isn't this how Safari works, with Quartz?)

No offense to Scribd, but I'd like to see the need for their service go away by in-browser support for progressively-downloaded PDFs.

Re:Scribd CTO: “We Are Scrapping Flash And Betting The Compa... by stanleydrew on Wednesday May 05, 2010 @07:19PM (#1322972)
In ChromeOS you'll need some kind of pdf viewer that runs in the browser. And not needing a native app is pretty nice in general in terms of bookmarking possibilities.
Re:Scribd CTO: “We Are Scrapping Flash And Betting The Compa... by mbreese on Thursday May 06, 2010 @01:30AM (#1323656)
Doesn't ChromeOS load PDFs into the Google PDF viewer?
Re:Scribd CTO: “We Are Scrapping Flash And Betting The Compa... by earl on Thursday May 06, 2010 @03:35AM (#1323826)
Well, two of many reasons are adobe is run by morons incapable of making a secure or performant product. Unless you missed the wave of acrobat exploits? 'Cause my gf's laptop sure didn't :(

Removing yet another plugin from your browser shrinks the attack surface, and as a side benefit, reduces use of one of the worst IMO bits of web tech.

Re:Scribd CTO: “We Are Scrapping Flash And Betting The Compa... by matthiaskramm on Wednesday May 05, 2010 @06:50PM (#1322912)
stay tuned.
Re:Scribd CTO: “We Are Scrapping Flash And Betting The Compa... by earl on Thursday May 06, 2010 @03:32AM (#1323814)
html >> images
Re:Scribd CTO: “We Are Scrapping Flash And Betting The Compa... by Anon84 on Wednesday May 05, 2010 @07:46PM (#1323033)
The change isn't as great as it seems (at least at first). Right now their setup probably looks something like this:

PDF -> Internal Representation -> Flash viewer

In principle they should only need to change to

PDF -> Internal Representation -> HTML5 viewer

That alone should make a huge different in terms of time needed.

Re:Scribd CTO: “We Are Scrapping Flash And Betting The Compa... by tyler on Wednesday May 05, 2010 @07:58PM (#1323059)
Most things certainly are simple in principle.
Re:Scribd CTO: “We Are Scrapping Flash And Betting The Compa... by Anon84 on Wednesday May 05, 2010 @08:44PM (#1323171)
I'm not saying it's trivial... just that they are not exactly restarting from scratch.

Never having done something similar myself, I would expect the hardest part to be correctly parsing the original PDFs and dealing with the varyiaty of PDF generators out there.

Re:Scribd CTO: “We Are Scrapping Flash And Betting The Compa... by krishna2 on Thursday May 06, 2010 @12:23AM (#1323548)
Small in size but still one of the top200 (150?) web sites.
Re:Scribd CTO: “We Are Scrapping Flash And Betting The Compa... by earl on Thursday May 06, 2010 @03:31AM (#1323813)
Re:Scribd CTO: “We Are Scrapping Flash And Betting The Compa... by benatkin on Wednesday May 05, 2010 @06:45PM (#1322891)
I'll believe it when I see it.

To me, this feels like desperation. It seems a little late to stop depending solely on Flash. Also, why not say that you're moving after you partially move? The companies I admire the most brag about distant features the least.

Re:Scribd CTO: “We Are Scrapping Flash And Betting The Compa... by tyler on Wednesday May 05, 2010 @06:48PM (#1322903)
"Distant features"? It's launching tomorrow.
Re:Scribd CTO: “We Are Scrapping Flash And Betting The Compa... by patrickgzill on Wednesday May 05, 2010 @10:48PM (#1323369)
Yes, but that is 86400 seconds from now ..
Re:Scribd CTO: “We Are Scrapping Flash And Betting The Compa... by potatolicious on Wednesday May 05, 2010 @06:29PM (#1322829)
Performance maybe - but it's hard to imagine any HTML5 implementation to be slower than Flash is. Also, HTML5 isn't arriving on IE for some time yet, and even then it may take years for the general public to update to something that can render HTML5 properly.

I wouldn't use any of the more complex/less-supported features of HTML5 on any live site today, that's for sure.

Re:Scribd CTO: “We Are Scrapping Flash And Betting The Compa... by watmough on Wednesday May 05, 2010 @08:30PM (#1323137)
Really?

I always thought that Flash was quite performant compared to browser-based Javascript. Can you point to any benchmarks?

Re:Scribd CTO: “We Are Scrapping Flash And Betting The Compa... by MartinCron on Thursday May 06, 2010 @12:57AM (#1323619)
Flash performance varies widely. Flash on Mac OSX is generally regarded as terrible, while Flash on Windows isn't as bad.
Re:Scribd CTO: “We Are Scrapping Flash And Betting The Compa... by earl on Thursday May 06, 2010 @03:38AM (#1323830)
If by generally regarded, you mean literally blows chunks... ffs, VLC is open source and it performs better on my macbook pro. Adobe is too incompetent even to copy freely available code.
Re:Scribd CTO: “We Are Scrapping Flash And Betting The Compa... by camwest on Thursday May 06, 2010 @09:05AM (#1324310)
Clearly video and PDF display are two different animals. Saying that performance blows on video and then using VLC as a comparison for JavaScript vs ActionScript performance is completely besides the point.
Re:Scribd CTO: “We Are Scrapping Flash And Betting The Compa... by MartinCron on Thursday May 06, 2010 @12:17PM (#1324744)
Yeah, sure, "blows chunks" is a perfectly fair assessment. I was just trying to be somewhat diplomatic.

I work with a hardcore Mac zealot and it's a running joke in the office that he will complain about Flash performance every single day.

Re:Scribd CTO: “We Are Scrapping Flash And Betting The Compa... by axod on Wednesday May 05, 2010 @06:40PM (#1322868)
"Betting the company" was clearly designed to get upvotes and media interest.
Re:Scribd CTO: “We Are Scrapping Flash And Betting The Compa... by yumraj on Wednesday May 05, 2010 @07:06PM (#1322945)
Exactly. This seems like a nice little PR move to have everyone talking about Scribd while this Flash-HTML5/Adobe-Apple thing is red hot.

Now, people who had never heard of this company are aware of them and am 100% sure their hit rate when way up high today.

Re:Scribd CTO: “We Are Scrapping Flash And Betting The Compa... by purp on Wednesday May 05, 2010 @07:47PM (#1323035)
Yep. It was clever of us to invest months of engineering time on this while also arranging for the Apple/Adobe schism to continue to worsen, and talk Steve Jobs into posting his thoughts at just the right time to frame our launch.

We're just that amazing. ;]

Re:Scribd CTO: “We Are Scrapping Flash And Betting The Compa... by ggrot on Wednesday May 05, 2010 @07:54PM (#1323051)
What you did was a more than a PR stunt. The "betting the company" line is just dramatic hyperbole. I consider "betting the company" to be saying - OK, if X happens I'll shut down the company, if !X happens you'll buy my company for 100M dollars.

In reality what you are saying is that if X happens, you waste alot of time, if !X happens then there is still no guaranteed outcome.

Re:Scribd CTO: “We Are Scrapping Flash And Betting The Compa... by purp on Wednesday May 05, 2010 @08:32PM (#1323144)
I believe I understand your perspective. I think you're saying that "Betting The Company" == "Taking Mortal Risk", and I agree with that definition.

I don't agree that the odds are fixed, nor that it's all-or-nothing-to-the-end. For any startup, you take mortal risk as infrequently as you can; you hedge those bets as much as you can; and, since you can invest effort to change the game in reaction to the market, you work to improve your odds over time.

So in the end, I believe you present a false dichotomy. It's rarely $100MM or death, and there's never a guaranteed outcome.

Re:Scribd CTO: “We Are Scrapping Flash And Betting The Compa... by earl on Thursday May 06, 2010 @03:41AM (#1323836)
Seriously? You're whining about the CTO calling investing 6 months of three quarters of their dev team into a risky project betting the company? While it isn't literally a 100 percent make-or-break project, Scribd does have competitors who haven't been kind enough to sit on ass for 6 months. They need to have something with some business benefit to show for that 6 months or it's going to be extraordinarily painful.
Re:Scribd CTO: “We Are Scrapping Flash And Betting The Compa... by campnic on Wednesday May 05, 2010 @08:15PM (#1323102)
My concern would be this:

1) Flash is prevalent today. No matter how much people are bashing it on HN, its widely used especially on the sites which are incredibly popular. 2) HTML5 adoption will be slow. Look at how long it to ie6 to die and you'll have an idea of how long it will take html5 to become prevalent. 3) You're taking a technology that allows you to be accessible today and trading it for a technology which will allow you to be accessible at some unknown time in the future, basically removing any barrier to entry for your competitors.

The hyperbole makes this seem worse then it is, I'm sure. You don't really have motivation to ditch your current flash implementation. You'll just put it into a "support as needed" mode.

Re:Scribd CTO: “We Are Scrapping Flash And Betting The Compa... by pytxab on Wednesday May 05, 2010 @09:45PM (#1323262)
As the article points out, they are only using parts of HTML5 that are supported by older browsers, including IE6.
Re:Scribd CTO: “We Are Scrapping Flash And Betting The Compa... by jarek on Wednesday May 05, 2010 @10:34PM (#1323342)
HTML5 must be some kind of wundertechnology. Reached draft in 2008, supported on browsers released in 2001.

Come on, it's great that they're ditching Flash, but if it really works on IE6 calling it "HTML5" is nothing but link/pageview-bait. The parts of HTML5 that are supported by IE6 are called HTML4 and Javascript.

Re:Scribd CTO: “We Are Scrapping Flash And Betting The Compa... by pytxab on Thursday May 06, 2010 @01:04AM (#1323626)
Actually, browsers often implement features that aren't in a standard, just because they think it's a good idea. Some of those end up being memorialized by the W3C and part of HTML. Many of the features of HTML5 started that way, including, in this case, web fonts (part of CSS3).
Re:Scribd CTO: “We Are Scrapping Flash And Betting The Compa... by mikexstudios on Wednesday May 05, 2010 @06:27PM (#1322822)
Internet Explorer...
Re:Scribd CTO: “We Are Scrapping Flash And Betting The Compa... by jamesjyu on Wednesday May 05, 2010 @06:29PM (#1322827)
FYI, this will work in IE.
Re:Scribd CTO: “We Are Scrapping Flash And Betting The Compa... by zmmmmm on Wednesday May 05, 2010 @08:29PM (#1323135)
Which versions? If it's IE6 then it can't be terribly HTML5-ish.
Re:Scribd CTO: “We Are Scrapping Flash And Betting The Compa... by qhoxie on Wednesday May 05, 2010 @08:41PM (#1323163)
IE6+. In less-compatible browsers there are workarounds to implement the same features, so the UX is basically the same.