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Re:Can Programming Be Liberated from the von Neumann Style? ... by digi_owl on Monday December 19, 2016 @09:51AM (#13211712)
Or it could simply be that your kids have wrapped the imperatives in a object called cup.

All this gets me thinking back to the micros and how they booted straight into a BASIC interpreter.

In a sense while booting to a mouse (or touch) driven GUI helps with getting now common tasks done out of the box. That no mainstream OS ship with something that allows someone to sit down and instruct a computer similarly to how it was done back then seems to have turned modern personal computers into near appliances.

Re:Can Programming Be Liberated from the von Neumann Style? ... by taeric on Monday December 19, 2016 @10:10AM (#13211819)
I believe this is a common line of thinking. More so with phones, which are surprisingly difficult to get self written programs on. Compared to early computers where I literally bought printouts of programs. (Toys, but still...)

Not that it is impossible, but it is surprisingly difficult and not shocking that fewer do it. (Of course, I question myself on that claim. Fewer, but by what measure? And do I have proof?)

Re:Can Programming Be Liberated from the von Neumann Style? ... by digi_owl on Monday December 19, 2016 @10:49AM (#13212101)
Thing is, back around the early days of Android Google offered a online dev environment that could sideload APKs to phones. I think it was based on Scratch.

But they have since handed the whole project over to MIT.

Frankly Android could have been a computer in our pockets, and i get the feel Rubin wanted to take it in that direction.

But around the time of 3.x-4.0 there was pressure from elsewhere in Google to take in a more iOS direction. We see this with the introduction of music and video into the then named Android Marketplace (later renamed Google Play).

And then there was the whole push towards ChromeOS as the choice of businesses, complete with Citrix being a launch day demo.

Only in the last few years have Google done an about face regading Android. Both with Android apps coming to ChromeOS, and with various functionality being added to Android to make it more business friendly.

Re:Can Programming Be Liberated from the von Neumann Style? ... by taeric on Monday December 19, 2016 @12:19PM (#13213014)
I see I also missed you comment on internalizing concepts. I think that is absolutely true. Also at the language level. There are a lot of things "internalized" by higher level languages.

To the point of android, though. I am getting my kids a Kano computer. Hoping that line will get them interested in the nuts and bolts, as it were. I need to be better and build things with them. :(

Re:Can Programming Be Liberated from the von Neumann Style? ... by digi_owl on Monday December 19, 2016 @01:54PM (#13213908)
Looks like a nifty kit indeed.
Re:Can Programming Be Liberated from the von Neumann Style? ... by godmodus on Monday December 19, 2016 @11:02AM (#13212224)
I have my hopes up for Nokia and Microsoft - win10 devices are more or less a pocket PC. When Linux Support gets properly implemented into Windows, a brilliant new era will dawn.

Not to mention c# is a beautiful language.

Re:Can Programming Be Liberated from the von Neumann Style? ... by digi_owl on Monday December 19, 2016 @11:06AM (#13212268)
> When Linux Support gets properly implemented into Windows, a brilliant new era will dawn.

Dream on. MS will implement just enough for cloud devs to use Windows as their dev environment, with a clear push towards Azure as the cloud of choice.

Re:Can Programming Be Liberated from the von Neumann Style? ... by godmodus on Monday December 19, 2016 @11:44AM (#13212645)
We'll see how it'll get bootstrapped when it happens. It takes an optimist and a pessimist for balance :)
Re:Can Programming Be Liberated from the von Neumann Style? ... by digi_owl on Monday December 19, 2016 @11:44AM (#13212649)
Touche, sir.
Re:Can Programming Be Liberated from the von Neumann Style? ... by analog31 on Monday December 19, 2016 @12:36PM (#13213178)
All this gets me thinking back to the micros and how they booted straight into a BASIC interpreter.

I grew up in that era, and I'm still nostalgic about it. On the other hand, a tablet PC plus Jupyter/Python comes pretty darn close to satisfying that need.

Re:Can Programming Be Liberated from the von Neumann Style? ... by digi_owl on Monday December 19, 2016 @04:05PM (#13214956)
I dunno. Current tablet offerings seems to be stuck either as a entertainment appliance, or straddling that and desktop Windows.

Microsoft screwed up badly when they decided you can't put a Metro style interface on a Win32 program and get touch support that way.

You either have to make it a Metro app (and ship it via their store), massively curtailing what you can do, or stay with the Win32 WIMP. And even when you tweak the size of various Win32 elements it is still a mess to operate via touch.

Edit: and using jupyter with a tablet strikes me as accessing a mainframe from a terminal (something a micro could act as with the right software).

Re:Can Programming Be Liberated from the von Neumann Style? ... by analog31 on Monday December 19, 2016 @05:09PM (#13215419)
It's certainly not as good as it could be. I have a "convertible" laptop, where the screen detaches from the keyboard to become a tablet. It runs Windows 10, so I can run the Jupyter server and a browser directly on the device. I've also played with Azure Notebooks, but I don't always have Internet access.

This isn't my only computer, and indeed doing anything with code from a touch screen is marginal at best, but at least it's possible. On a bigger computer, of course I get a bigger screen and keyboard.

Admittedly, I had to look up what Metro and WIMP are. I'm not actually trying to create apps that others can use. My use of programming is largely for my own productivity and learning.

Re:Can Programming Be Liberated from the von Neumann Style? ... by taeric on Monday December 19, 2016 @06:53PM (#13216108)
What makes jupyter/python closer to this than booting into emacs? (With something like org-mode?)

Just the point/click nature of jupyter?

Re:Can Programming Be Liberated from the von Neumann Style? ... by analog31 on Monday December 19, 2016 @09:42PM (#13216983)
That's a good question. I've built systems that boot into a command prompt, and booting into emacs wouldn't be too big a step away from that. But what always seems to happen is that after a while the nostalgia wears off and I remember why I like my Jupyter.

I guess it's the REPL-on-steroids nature of Jupyter that I like. Also, having inline matplotlib graphs is pretty killer.

Re:Can Programming Be Liberated from the von Neumann Style? ... by taeric on Monday December 19, 2016 @09:48PM (#13217016)
If you haven't, check out org mode in emacs. It can also inline graphs easily. With ready to go bindings for Python, graphviz, gnuplot, and R. (C-c C-x C-v will show charts inline with default bindings.)

My favorite is grabbing logs with a shell block. Reshaping with elisp or Python, and then charting with gnuplot. All in one file with an iterative workflow.