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Re:German research institutions boycott Elsevier by mattkrause on Thursday December 15, 2016 @02:59PM (#13187735)
I would love a world where publishing papers is cheap and reading papers, particularly taxpayer-funded ones, is free.

However, I'd also like a job and none of the "top tier" biomedical journals are open access. While I'd like to think that the quality of my work would speak for itself, the imprimatur that one gets from Nature, Science, Cell, and Neuron is worth quite a bit when applying for jobs and grants.

Unless the big names in academia--and the search committees they sit on--publicly and credibly commit to this, you're essentially asking people (many of whom are on short-term contracts making $40,000 a year) to take an enormous career risk.

Re:German research institutions boycott Elsevier by Fomite on Thursday December 15, 2016 @03:29PM (#13188038)
This. The biggest and most meaningful way to do this would be for people sitting on search committees and tenure/promotion committees to say publicly that candidates wouldn't be punished for deliberately publishing in OA journals.
Re:German research institutions boycott Elsevier by a3_nm on Thursday December 15, 2016 @06:57PM (#13189893)
The problem is the following: if there is no established OA journal in the field, you can't distinguish the candidate who "deliberately" publishes good quality work in a non-selective OA journal, from the candidate who publishes low-quality work in the same non-selective OA journal.

The only way to tell is to read the papers and judge for yourself, and this is the root of the problem: evaluating candidates based on the number of papers and the impact factor (or some analogous metric) of the venues is much, much easier for committees, than actually reading the papers.

Re:German research institutions boycott Elsevier by brownbat on Thursday December 15, 2016 @08:26PM (#13190339)
In a very rough analogy, this is why we have film critics, because we can't trust other institutions in the industry (studios, individual theaters, directors) as a guarantee of quality.

If a panel of respected tenured professors in the field ranked the best works in open access journals each month, or if there was a high profile yearly prize for best open access papers of the year, that could help disaggregate reputational effects from the publication itself.

Bootstrapping this sort of thing is hard. I'm sure Nobels didn't signal as strongly in year one as they do now.

Re:German research institutions boycott Elsevier by jonathanstrange on Friday December 16, 2016 @05:19AM (#13192261)
Exactly, this nonsense of mostly just counting publications must stop. If at all, there is only a very light correlation (or perhaps even a negative one, who knows?) between the number of publication and the quality of a scientist's research. And what's so crazy about it is that everybody knows this. No one has ever been called a great scientist, because he published many articles. Such scientists may be called prolific, but that doesn't necessarily reflect on the quality of the content.

The same for counting quotations, by the way. This may be different in STEM fields, but I'm in the humanities. In the humanities bad papers are sometimes quoted as often as brilliant papers, because everybody wants to correct the authors. I've seen more than one colleague literally make his career by writing a polemic and obviously wrong book (books=often improper peer review) and then sneaking a few apologetic articles in which they half-retracted their claims past the reviewers. What's worse, I know postdocs who are actively looking for such untenable topics that will surely stir up a reaction. We're talking about theses, conjectures or claims that nobody defended previously, because they are so obviously wrong or flawed. I've also met people at the postdoc level who literally replied "Who cares, it's one more publication" when I raised doubts about their main claim in an article and mentioned that it might not 'work' for purely formal reasons (but adding that I'd have to check, to be polite).

I'm sure it's a bit less drastic in CS and the STEM fields, but in the humanities publication counting almost enforces mediocrity and the publication of uninteresting, pointless papers with vastly overlapping topics - and it's completely obvious that it does so.

The situation is particularly frustrating, because the system makes it harder to publish good science. Good science needs larger studies and/or better formal underpinnings, both of which take more time and more effort than duplicating fake papers about fake problems.

Well, enough ranting for today, you get the point.

Re:German research institutions boycott Elsevier by inimino on Friday December 16, 2016 @08:06AM (#13192947)
It's almost as if academia were set up to advance the careers of those within academia rather than to advance human knowledge.
Re:German research institutions boycott Elsevier by marcosdumay on Friday December 16, 2016 @12:50PM (#13195154)
People will game the metric you impose on them.

The onus is on the administrations to get a metric that is gamed by advancing human knowledge, instead of throwing logs at flame wars. That's why they get the big salaries.

Re:German research institutions boycott Elsevier by JorgeGT on Thursday December 15, 2016 @03:43PM (#13188194)
Nobody punishes you for publishing in OA journals, what matters is the IF and JCR rank of the journal, not if it's OA or not.
Re:German research institutions boycott Elsevier by mattkrause on Thursday December 15, 2016 @03:57PM (#13188318)
If you find an OA journal with cachet matching Nature or Science, I would be happy to submit stuff there. As far as I know, there's nothing even particularly close.

In other words, I doubt anyone is explicitly penalized for submitting to PLoS Biology instead of Journal of Neuroscience. However, there is an implicit penalty for not submitting to Nature/Science/Cell.

[As an aside, I really hate the obsession with IF and all these other "quantitative" measures of research quality. They're all incredibly ad-hoc, someone easily game-able, and yet otherwise-smart people take them so seriously.]

Re:German research institutions boycott Elsevier by JorgeGT on Thursday December 15, 2016 @04:13PM (#13188454)
At least in my country, I'm thankful for these quantitative measurements, that difficult corrupt practices: Oh, I assure you he's a great researcher, just not in any measurable way. He's my nephew you say? Well, that's not the point...
Re:German research institutions boycott Elsevier by angry_octet on Thursday December 15, 2016 @07:24PM (#13190026)
While this is important, in many fields their are cliques of related researchers (1) on the grants committees and (2) on the journal committees. These people know who works on which problems, so blind review is a farce.

Also, the concept of IF being a proxy for rigorous review and work quality is weak at best. Just read a few pages of http://retractionwatch.com/

Re:German research institutions boycott Elsevier by mattkrause on Thursday December 15, 2016 @05:38PM (#13189280)
Couldn't you just require people to recuse themselves from hiring decisions involving relatives?

Particularly for early career people, I suspect most of these "quantitative" measurements are basically reflecting where and wtih whom you worked.

Re:German research institutions boycott Elsevier by Fomite on Thursday December 15, 2016 @11:48PM (#13191142)
There's also less nepotistic problems. For example, I've moved between different sides of the same overall field several times. That means, for any given reader of my CV, only about half the "impressive" papers read to them as impressive using most subjective measures.
Re:German research institutions boycott Elsevier by JorgeGT on Friday December 16, 2016 @03:45AM (#13191945)
> Couldn't you just require people to recuse themselves from hiring decisions involving relatives?

They used to have this nice trick where you hired the son of your friend and your friend hired your son. But at least now there are some non-subjective requirements to be met before anyone can get admitted.

Re:German research institutions boycott Elsevier by alasdair_ on Thursday December 15, 2016 @06:32PM (#13189723)
This seems like it would be fixable with a fairly small amount of money, relatively speaking: offer something like $250K for the most important papers that would otherwise be published in Nature to instead be published in an open-access journal. After all of the major papers for several months are published in open access journals and the most well-known journals are reduced to publishing only the dregs that are left, opinion could change quite quickly. Sustain this type of payment for a couple of years and I'd bet there would be a sizable number of other people publishing open-access, since to be published in Nature would imply that your paper wan't important enough to be offered the $250K reward.

(Disclaimer: I used to work in this field at biomedcentral.com)

Re:German research institutions boycott Elsevier by simonster on Thursday December 15, 2016 @06:59PM (#13189905)
Or just make Science OA. Unlike Nature and Cell, it's published by a non-profit (the American Association for the Advancement of Science). In principle, the American government could just give them money to make everything freely accessible. Or the publishers could ask authors to pay publication fees with waivers for those unable to pay, like most OA journals. Since the goal of the AAAS is (at least theoretically) to publish papers and not to make a profit, the fees need not be much higher than other OA journals. Given the average Science paper probably costs something like $1 million to produce, I doubt the authors would balk at paying a few thousand to make their work accessible to everyone.
Re:German research institutions boycott Elsevier by PeterisP on Friday December 16, 2016 @04:41AM (#13192158)
If you had any kind of realistic measure to identify "important papers that would otherwise be published in Nature" then the problem would be already solved, since all the evaluation criteria could look at that instead of the journal ratings. However, we do not - currently the only actually usable way to identify "important papers that would otherwise be published in Nature" is simply asking "has this research been published in Nature?"
Re:German research institutions boycott Elsevier by throwaway729 on Thursday December 15, 2016 @04:04PM (#13188367)
Yes, they are pointless and arbitrary metrics.

Competition for positions in academia has gotten so bad that it doesn't matter. Like Google rejecting perfectly good candidates just because they can, but in Academia even south central Kansastucky state university has enough excellent applicants that arbitrary metrics do more good than harm.

Re:German research institutions boycott Elsevier by Certhas on Thursday December 15, 2016 @07:43PM (#13190121)
We don't necessarily need OA. Nature allows you to publish your papers on the arxiv. If all papers are on the arxiv, and with the journal, the negotiation position of the journals goes away.
Re:German research institutions boycott Elsevier by hannob on Thursday December 15, 2016 @03:58PM (#13188330)
Impact factors and similar metrics are part of the problem. These are metrics that support flashy research, not good research. If anything the Impact Factor is a sign of sloppy research (there's a lot of evidence for that, e.g. the higher the IF the more likely there's a retraction).
Re:German research institutions boycott Elsevier by dagw on Thursday December 15, 2016 @04:25PM (#13188550)
there's a lot of evidence for that, e.g. the higher the IF the more likely there's a retraction

The higher the IF, the more likely it is the researcher trying to do something 'hard' and the more people will scrutinise the results. These two factors alone will lead to more retractions.

Someone publishing something completely uninteresting in a journal no one reads will never be in a position to have to retract their paper, no matter how flawed, because no one will notice and no one will care.

Re:German research institutions boycott Elsevier by JorgeGT on Thursday December 15, 2016 @04:17PM (#13188480)
But it's not an easy problem. How do you grade from 0 to 10 good research from a candidate?
Re:German research institutions boycott Elsevier by Fomite on Thursday December 15, 2016 @11:44PM (#13191133)
But given the IF and ranks of OA journals, that's effectively the same thing. What you'd have to do is essentially give OA journals a handicap.

Not to mention the opportunity cost associated with OA fees, which can add up if you're talking about lab startup.

Re:German research institutions boycott Elsevier by pelario on Friday December 16, 2016 @03:37AM (#13191906)
Agreeing with you, and also answering the GP:

The issue I see is that "Academia" is not the same as "the scientists", there is a larger community, that includes institutions, processes, administrative people, etc.

So, yes, for instance, I would love that we all published our papers in, say, arxive, an we were evaluated by the actual impact of our publications (~ PageRank). But that is not how the funding organizations, hiring committees, etc, are going to do it.

How to do the transition from the current state of things to a better one, and not to commit career suicide? That is the question, and that is what those boycotts are aiming to, I believe.

Re:German research institutions boycott Elsevier by jmnicholson on Thursday December 15, 2016 @04:42PM (#13188721)
This is a great point. We need to provide researchers with options that don't kill their career prospects. One idea, which we're working on at Authorea (authorea.com) is to help researchers write their documents online so they can be easily published as preprints. This way open access can be achieved in a manner that goes beyond a PDF or Word doc, and researchers can still play the game so long as it exists.

Some more info here: https://www.authorea.com/123679/d8cErAb_olPC5CvcWWwsig

Re:German research institutions boycott Elsevier by antennas on Thursday December 15, 2016 @04:13PM (#13188450)
It's a prisoner's dilemma. If you (researcher) defect (publish in Elsevier journals), you perpetuate Elsevier's business, a shitty situation. But it's not as bad as cooperating (not publishing), because there's a chance that everyone else defects and you screw up your career, a really shitty situation. So out of self-interest everyone defects and perpetuates Elsevier's business.
Re:German research institutions boycott Elsevier by mizzao on Thursday December 15, 2016 @06:41PM (#13189791)
More of a public goods problem (n-player PD).
Re:German research institutions boycott Elsevier by BeetleB on Thursday December 15, 2016 @03:22PM (#13187955)
>However, I'd also like a job and none of the "top tier" biomedical journals are open access.

Isn't it a requirement that all NIH funded work must be published as open access?

Re:German research institutions boycott Elsevier by mattkrause on Thursday December 15, 2016 @03:29PM (#13188051)
Not quite. You have to deposit a copy of the manuscript in PubMedCentral within a year of publication. Some journals let you deposit the final pdf (or even do it for you). Others restrict you to an unformatted "final draft" (i.e., the last thing you submitted to the journal).

However, this is still tagged with the source journal, so it doesn't really get you around the career-related issues.

Public Access guidelines: https://publicaccess.nih.gov/policy.htm

Re:German research institutions boycott Elsevier by JorgeGT on Thursday December 15, 2016 @03:27PM (#13188014)
Open, but not immediately, I believe. Journals have an embargo period of 1-3 years, and after that you can put the accepted paper on a free repository. Your manuscript can usually be posted for free as soon as you want.
Re:German research institutions boycott Elsevier by Fomite on Thursday December 15, 2016 @03:27PM (#13188016)
It is, but it's after a time. It's not actually weakly enforced - we've been told we can't take credit for publications on grant reports if they're not in PMC.
Re:German research institutions boycott Elsevier by mattkrause on Thursday December 15, 2016 @03:35PM (#13188121)
Don't you need to include the PMC ID number for each paper on the progress report/renewal? I vaguely remember doing something like this for our last one....
Re:German research institutions boycott Elsevier by Fomite on Thursday December 15, 2016 @11:50PM (#13191158)
Yep - you need the ID number, and if its not there, it doesn't count.
Re:German research institutions boycott Elsevier by PeterisP on Friday December 16, 2016 @04:43AM (#13192161)
It's solved by "publishing" it in an open access repository - so the data is available to public, but all the ratings and citations and relevant rankings go to the closed access journal where you initially published it.
Re:German research institutions boycott Elsevier by dekhn on Thursday December 15, 2016 @03:26PM (#13187993)
yes but it's only weakly enforced,and I believe there's an embargo peroid
Re:German research institutions boycott Elsevier by dv_dt on Thursday December 15, 2016 @03:13PM (#13187864)
It is interesting to separate the review from the storage/access portions of scientific publishing. Bind the prestige to the review board, not the publisher. Once you have open access, there's nothing stopping academics from forming an independent review board organization which then provide some form of stamps of approval; paper A from It seems like it would be a good organizational excuse to stay in touch with peers and exchange information on the field anyway...
Re:German research institutions boycott Elsevier by mattkrause on Thursday December 15, 2016 @03:48PM (#13188248)
Have you heard of Faculty Of 1000 (f1000.com)?

It sorta does that. The "faculty" submit 1-2 paragraph blurbs describing papers. The blurbs often point out the strengths and weaknesses of each paper and give a brief description of how it fits into the broader literature. If you can find a couple of people on there with similar research interests, it can be a great way to get up to speed on something.

Re:German research institutions boycott Elsevier by JumpCrisscross on Thursday December 15, 2016 @03:52PM (#13188279)
> none of the "top tier" biomedical journals are open access

Is this solely a product of network effects? Or could there be some truth to the top journals' ability to organise the review process?

Re:German research institutions boycott Elsevier by mattkrause on Thursday December 15, 2016 @04:05PM (#13188374)
Pretty much. The review process seems to be about the same across most journals. In fact, there's probably a niche for some journals that have an actual editorial process where an editor actually...edits the prose.

Nature/Science/Cell are popular because everyone recognizes their "brand" and associates them with interesting, high-impact science. Thus, it's easy for anyone "Hey, we should fund/hire her because she's got a bunch of Nature papers!" It's not miles from the old "Nobody got fired for buying IBM" bit.

In contrast, it's unlikely that one person--let alone more-on the committee has carefully read your J. Soc. Whatever paper and says "This is well done! Get him instead!"

Re:German research institutions boycott Elsevier by ProblemFactory on Thursday December 15, 2016 @06:14PM (#13189598)
It's not just a subjective well-known brand.

Nature/Science/Cell have a prestigious brand, so many scientists try to get their best work published there. The journals get first pick of new research to choose from, and as a result getting published there really is a good indicator that your work is impactful and high quality. It's a network effect that can be broken only if enough funding & promotion committees, or top scientists in a field take a stand together.

Something I have wondered though:

What if we separate the "measure of quality and impact" from getting published in the journals? Something like "shadow journals", that doesn't publish and edit any articles itself. Its reviewers would pick the top 30 new papers published in their field each month, and just publish links to them. If this would get established, it could be used by funding and promotion committees, and the brand of the original journals would matter less.

Re:German research institutions boycott Elsevier by tnecniv on Thursday December 15, 2016 @09:43PM (#13190669)
> Pretty much. The review process seems to be about the same across most journals. In fact, there's probably a niche for some journals that have an actual editorial process where an editor actually...edits the prose.

Some journals do this. I've had PhD student friends inform me that when they've published to some (well-regarded) journals, after being accepted, they spent months going back and forth with the editor polishing the article.

Re:German research institutions boycott Elsevier by Certhas on Thursday December 15, 2016 @07:40PM (#13190100)
I think the best leverage is with the funding bodies. Declare that all publicly funded papers need to be OA, and this goes away in an instant.

That said, these news made my life a lot easier right now. I was considering whether to accept an invitation to review for an Elsevier journal (which I've usually avoided). Now I'm fairly sure I will not.

Re:German research institutions boycott Elsevier by arthur2e5 on Friday December 16, 2016 @09:45AM (#13193530)
> particularly taxpayer-funded ones

In the US there is a "Fair Access to Science and Technology Research Act of 2015" (S. 779, H.R.1477) that requires federal agencies to have a "public access policy" if they receive extramural research expenditures of over $100,000,000. https://act.eff.org/action/keep-publicly-funded-research-pub...

Re:German research institutions boycott Elsevier by visarga on Friday December 16, 2016 @05:44AM (#13192346)
> However, I'd also like a job and none of the "top tier" biomedical journals are open access

Scientific domains with open publishing, like machine learning, have a very fast pace and amazing evolution.

Won't biology as a field be affected severely by all this closeness? I think in the long run the whole field is suffering.

Re:German research institutions boycott Elsevier by tomjen3 on Friday December 16, 2016 @03:44AM (#13191936)
Sounds like we need to make it illegal to use government founds to publish in a non open access journal.