China won't be luring foreign tech talent any time soon

Re:China won't be luring foreign tech talent any time soon by aub3bhat on Tuesday December 13, 2016 @11:48AM (#13168203)

I agree, having arrived in USA 7 years ago, I have seen that its much easier to integrate in United States, especially if you live on East Coast or SF/LA. Sure there are visa and green card hurdles, but as a society Americans are probably more accepting of immigrants than any other country, except maybe Canada. Of course my experience is as a relatively well-off indian studying in United States, other will have a different experience.

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Re:China won't be luring foreign tech talent any time soon by vacri on Tuesday December 13, 2016 @07:57PM (#13172874)

> except maybe Canada...

... Norway, Sweden, Australia, New Zealand, Spain...

The US immigration rate (immigrants/year/1000 pop) is significantly lower than all of the above. Norway and Spain are the top two in terms of rate. Australia is 21% foreign-born (excluding Brits and Kiwis), and NZ is not far behind. The US is only 14% (with no exclusions) - not much more than the UK's 12%.

I realise that these are 'just numbers', but the experience stacks up as well. NZ in particular is famous for its very welcoming attitude to migrants - they actually have a problem in that people use the easier-to-get NZ citizenship to 'hop' to Australia, where there's a better economy and hence jobs; thus NZ spends a lot of resources training new citizens in things like English skills, only to have them 'brain drain' away.

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Re:China won't be luring foreign tech talent any time soon by finid on Tuesday December 13, 2016 @02:13PM (#13169769)

This is my observation: If you're Indian, being "relatively well-off" is not your only advantage: (White) Americans tend to view you in more favorable terms. It's almost as if we welcome you with open arms.

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Re:China won't be luring foreign tech talent any time soon by parennoob on Tuesday December 13, 2016 @03:36PM (#13170727)

I am an Indian in the US. I get the general idea of what you are saying, but I should note that it has a strong implicit assumption of a very liberal community. In such communities (say in SF or NYC), I am welcomed pretty warmly. On the other hand, in a bunch of mostly male, middle-aged, Christian tech people in Middle America, I am regarded with a mildly welcoming/neutral attitude at best and open hostility that is leaning-towards-but-not-exactly-racism at the worst.

So this "advantage" you mention is somewhat double-edged depending upon where you are.

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Re:China won't be luring foreign tech talent any time soon by finid on Tuesday December 13, 2016 @10:34PM (#13173572)

That "mildly welcoming/neutral attitude at best and open hostility that is leaning-towards-but-not-exactly-racism" attitude proves my point. That's much better than what folks from Black Africa, many with a much lighter skin tone than you, experience.

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Re:China won't be luring foreign tech talent any time soon by parennoob on Tuesday December 13, 2016 @11:04PM (#13173742)

Yes, but the initial thing you said was:

> It's almost as if we welcome you with open arms.

Perhaps there is something being lost in cross-cultural language or sarcasm, but I don't think "We might be racist to you, but we're way worse racist to this other group, so you have it good, really" should be expressed as "..as if we welcome you with open arms" and "You have an advantage...". Both of those are traditionally very positive expressions and you are applying them to fairly negative actual events.

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Re:China won't be luring foreign tech talent any time soon by pm90 on Wednesday December 14, 2016 @05:34PM (#13180311)

I agree that the wording might be a bit inaccurate, but the sentiment in the liberal cities is definitely very welcoming. Personally, having lived in Austin, a liberal city in Texas, I've rarely encountered any explicit racism.

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Re:China won't be luring foreign tech talent any time soon by finid on Wednesday December 14, 2016 @08:53PM (#13181682)

Than an Indian is the ex-governor of Louisiana and the current governor of South Carolina is an Indian woman says a lot. And those are are some of the reddest of states.

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Re:China won't be luring foreign tech talent any time soon by MarkMc on Wednesday December 14, 2016 @02:43AM (#13174473)

My understanding is that even "open hostility that is leaning-towards-but-not-exactly-racism" is better than an Indian person is likely to experience living in China.

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Re:China won't be luring foreign tech talent any time soon by rfdub on Tuesday December 13, 2016 @02:57PM (#13170326)

Racial discrimination is completely legal in China. Why the hell would anyone want to move to a country where they can legally be discriminated against?

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Re:China won't be luring foreign tech talent any time soon by netheril96 on Wednesday December 14, 2016 @01:44AM (#13174300)

When you are discriminated in a positive way. White males are regarded as superior in the eyes of many Chinese.

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Re:China won't be luring foreign tech talent any time soon by louhike on Tuesday December 13, 2016 @11:34AM (#13168082)

The american administration is bad too for foreigners, so I think it can be summarized by how attractive the country is.

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Re:China won't be luring foreign tech talent any time soon by seanmcdirmid on Tuesday December 13, 2016 @12:22PM (#13168530)

An H1B doesn't have to reapply for a work visa every year, and they eventually get a green card, while green cards are extremely rare in China. Also, you don't have to re-register at the PSB in the states a few times a year, waiting in line just to get a little slip of paper.

It is easy to get a working visa in tech, that's for sure, and if you have a company that jumps through all the hoops for you, it can be relatively painless.

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Re:China won't be luring foreign tech talent any time soon by snambi on Tuesday December 13, 2016 @12:23PM (#13168540)

I'm an indian immigrant, this is totally not true. There may be edge cases, but in general, cannot agree with this statement.

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Re:China won't be luring foreign tech talent any time soon by serge2k on Tuesday December 13, 2016 @02:55PM (#13170297)

what? The american immigration system is pretty awful. H-1B to employer sponsored green card is a really lousy system.

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Re:China won't be luring foreign tech talent any time soon by xiaoma on Tuesday December 13, 2016 @03:14PM (#13170511)

Try immigrating to China.

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Re:China won't be luring foreign tech talent any time soon by jensvdh on Tuesday December 13, 2016 @03:33PM (#13170697)

I'm not familiar with China's system. But let's not pretend a lottery based system, where the only thing that decides whether you can stay in the country or not, is random number generation, like H1-B is great.

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Re:China won't be luring foreign tech talent any time soon by wmil on Tuesday December 13, 2016 @07:45PM (#13172804)

China's system is basically just "No, you can't stay". As of 2010 exactly 1,448 living immigrants had managed to become citizens. In contrast, the US naturalizes 700,000 every year.

The country actually has more billionaires than non-Vietnamese refugees.

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Re:China won't be luring foreign tech talent any time soon by lacampbell on Tuesday December 13, 2016 @07:56PM (#13172869)

Right. China is in the business of colonising other countries - not being colonised itself.

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Re:China won't be luring foreign tech talent any time soon by duaneb on Tuesday December 13, 2016 @11:56AM (#13168274)

You mean how the child of an immigrant is President?

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Re:China won't be luring foreign tech talent any time soon by falsestprophet on Tuesday December 13, 2016 @08:42PM (#13173107)

You mean how the child of an immigrant is President?

The president's father was never an immigrant. An immigrant is someone who comes to life permanently in a new country. He was a foreign student with a wife in Kenya and eventually returned to Kenya with an American third wife upon the completion of his studies.

Several presidents have been a child of an immigrant: Thomas Jefferson, Andrew Jackson, James Buchanan, Chester Arthur, Woodrow Wilson and Herbert Hoover.

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Re:China won't be luring foreign tech talent any time soon by duaneb on Wednesday December 14, 2016 @09:45PM (#13181951)

Correct; my apologies.

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Re:China won't be luring foreign tech talent any time soon by Jtsummers on Tuesday December 13, 2016 @12:08PM (#13168380)

US immigration goes beyond just the President's personal views and desires. The present situation is pretty difficult for many would-be immigrants, even those from middle class backgrounds in stable countries. If they lack a degree or their degree isn't recognized, they can't easily get a work visa (for permanent resident status, not temporary workers). They have to get married, go for the diversity visa program, or become a student (may be their second or third degree for some if they go this route).

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Re:China won't be luring foreign tech talent any time soon by duaneb on Tuesday December 13, 2016 @01:38PM (#13169332)

This is true. But compare it to other countries: even where immigration is more relaxed, the cultural acceptance of foreign culture is greater in the US than most places. The only place I might prefer to be as a foreigner would be Canada.

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Re:China won't be luring foreign tech talent any time soon by cylinder on Tuesday December 13, 2016 @01:12PM (#13168990)

His father was not an immigrant, he was born in Queens. And the immigration laws are a much bigger obstacle now than they were even in the 80s.

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Re:China won't be luring foreign tech talent any time soon by duaneb on Tuesday December 13, 2016 @01:34PM (#13169278)

I was referring to Obama Sr, who was born in Kenya.

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Re:China won't be luring foreign tech talent any time soon by wmil on Tuesday December 13, 2016 @07:46PM (#13172815)

He was never an immigrant. He just came on a student visa, studied, then went back to Kenya.

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Re:China won't be luring foreign tech talent any time soon by duaneb on Tuesday December 13, 2016 @11:03PM (#13173732)

My mistake, I didn't realize that meaning of immigrant. Nonetheless, I think my point stands, perhaps even stronger.

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Re:China won't be luring foreign tech talent any time soon by jameshart on Tuesday December 13, 2016 @11:15PM (#13173795)

Weird correction.

Mary Anne MacLeod Trump, mother to Donald, was born on the Isle of Lewis in Scotland in 1912, emigrated to the US in 1930, married an American in 1936, naturalized 1942.

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Re:China won't be luring foreign tech talent any time soon by duaneb on Wednesday December 14, 2016 @09:44PM (#13181949)

Great find; I never would have realized this otherwise. Ironically this is more accurate than my statement about the current president!

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Re:China won't be luring foreign tech talent any time soon by officialjunk on Tuesday December 13, 2016 @11:36AM (#13168100)

A minority in the US could make that same exact argument...

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Re:China won't be luring foreign tech talent any time soon by bbctol on Tuesday December 13, 2016 @12:05PM (#13168362)

Yes, and it would be a less strong argument. Being a recent immigrant in the United States is not easy, and feeling integrated into the new country is a challenge. Being a recent immigrant to China is incredibly hard, and feeling integrated is impossible. All arguments could be made on all sides of every issue; that doesn't say much about practical realities.

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Re:China won't be luring foreign tech talent any time soon by icelancer on Tuesday December 13, 2016 @11:54AM (#13168255)

Only true if you're willing to be ignorant about how poor integration is in most of the Asian countries compared to the US.

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Re:China won't be luring foreign tech talent any time soon by dethswatch on Tuesday December 13, 2016 @11:54AM (#13168259)

> you'll always be a foreigner there

This isn't true in the US, if you learn the language.

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Re:China won't be luring foreign tech talent any time soon by evidencepi on Tuesday December 13, 2016 @02:28PM (#13169936)

language != culture

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Re:China won't be luring foreign tech talent any time soon by st3v3r on Tuesday December 13, 2016 @02:49PM (#13170229)

No, but communication plays a huge deal in being able to absorb the culture, as well as share your own.

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Re:China won't be luring foreign tech talent any time soon by samsonradu on Tuesday December 13, 2016 @06:40PM (#13172395)

Also the american culture is very wide spread through media. Watching Hollywood, music, sitcoms, talk shows, stand ups etc. ever since I was 10 yo and able to understand english definitely helps absorbing the culture even from eastern Europe as myself. Visited the US for 2 weeks and really felt as if I was no stranger at all.

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Re:China won't be luring foreign tech talent any time soon by arrosenberg on Tuesday December 13, 2016 @03:28PM (#13170638)

Very true. Most places in the US are fairly welcoming if you can speak English and communicate. It's even common for xenophobes to cut out an exception for immigrants and minorities they know personally and feel friendly toward.

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Re:China won't be luring foreign tech talent any time soon by dethswatch on Friday December 16, 2016 @04:43PM (#13197141)

we don't care where you're from. I'm not running a little 'who's a citizen tally' in my head.

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Re:China won't be luring foreign tech talent any time soon by duaneb on Tuesday December 13, 2016 @11:57AM (#13168284)

Minorities are not treated like foreigners or alien.

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