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Re:Daniel Ellsberg, Edward Snowden and the Modern Whistleblower by rqebmm on Monday December 12, 2016 @11:10AM (#13159071)
Gladwell's biggest omission is the stories of Thomas Drake and William Binney. Two predecessors that Snowden was well aware of, who tried to be, as Gladwell puts it "leakers as insiders". They were systematically shut down, and Snowden learned that was no longer an option for him, so he became a "leaker as outsider".

The nature and style of Snowden's whistleblowing is not because he loves the hacker-chic style. It's because the CIA and NSA proved they were perfectly capable of covering up the most damaging "insider" whistleblowers and he still thought this information was worth releasing to the public.

Re:Daniel Ellsberg, Edward Snowden and the Modern Whistleblower by SomeStupidPoint on Monday December 12, 2016 @11:37AM (#13159354)
I've made this argument for a long time: any damage to the US from the Snowden leaks was because the government refused to clean house when they became aware of problems through internal channels. Snowden was merely a concerned employee revealing to shareholders that business executives were willfully defrauding investors and breaking fiduciary duty, to use an analogy. The reason he didn't use internal channels was executives up to the board level had previously targeted other leakers as part of their criminal conspiracy.
Re:Daniel Ellsberg, Edward Snowden and the Modern Whistleblower by tptacek on Monday December 12, 2016 @05:03PM (#13162379)
This gets to motivations and intent but doesn't really answer the question posed by the article, which is: are insiders who leak carefully and strategically creating better public policy outcomes than the indiscriminate leaks that IT people have been generating?
Re:Daniel Ellsberg, Edward Snowden and the Modern Whistleblower by SomeStupidPoint on Monday December 12, 2016 @06:05PM (#13162909)
There's obviously a lot to both positions, but as a succinct answer: I would argue that a mixed policy likely generates the best outcomes -- by instigating a crisis to motivate public interest and movement on the topic, and then sustained, strategic leaks over the following decade(s), once there's an interested cohort (with a baseline of evidence).

Ill date myself a bit here by saying that Snowden is the only major leak of my lifetime, but it seems to me that he was able to get traction on the issue when a lot of people had failed to (eg, there were rumors of NSA programs before including from NSA insiders, but little public attention), but what has kept the topic alive is a series of strategic leaks of new information to sustain public attention and keep the debate focused on it being a current issue.

So in some senses, I think we need those doc drops of "They're really looking at all your dick pics, hook-up texts, and tracking every illicit meet-up", but I also think that we get a lot more usage out of quieter leaks of key details, once the conversation is happening.

That was sort of the point of my analogy: quiet rumors from key staff to shareholders were ignored or suppressed by executive staff until one guy in accounting dropped the whole set of books. This obviously leaked a bunch of business secrets, but Id argue the only way to comprehend the scale of wrongdoing was to see that the entire system had become organized around that illicit activity.

It was only in that context we could even start a conversation about the scope of what had gone awry.

Re:Daniel Ellsberg, Edward Snowden and the Modern Whistleblower by rqebmm on Monday December 12, 2016 @05:33PM (#13162632)
Which raises an interesting corollary: is there such a thing as an "indiscriminate" leak?

Recent events have shown that WikiLeaks' practice of leaking anything they have has instead created an opportunity for targeted leaks by selectively passing information to them.

Re:Daniel Ellsberg, Edward Snowden and the Modern Whistleblower by cryoshon on Monday December 12, 2016 @07:54PM (#13163568)
>are insiders who leak carefully and strategically creating better public policy outcomes than the indiscriminate leaks that IT people have been generating?

the insiders aren't effecting policy outcomes whatsoever. they're getting snuffed out and swept under the rug.

throwing open the barn door is the only way the public gets enough information to clean it out.

Re:Daniel Ellsberg, Edward Snowden and the Modern Whistleblower by samstave on Monday December 12, 2016 @12:50PM (#13160045)
literally the best analogy i have heard on the subject. thanks
Re:Daniel Ellsberg, Edward Snowden and the Modern Whistleblower by eternalban on Monday December 12, 2016 @01:26PM (#13160418)
I just grep'd for Prouty and nothing showed up. Even his wikipedia page [1] is a bit scrubbed and buries his important act of blowing the whistle on the shadow government [2]. Btw, Prouty discusses Ellsberg directly in his book. It is 'interesting' reading for sure.

[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L._Fletcher_Prouty

[2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Secret_Team

Re:Daniel Ellsberg, Edward Snowden and the Modern Whistleblower by kafkaesq on Monday December 12, 2016 @04:45PM (#13162199)
Prouty was certainly a very interesting fellow, but unfortunately his best-known "revelation" -- regarding the role of the so-called Secret Team cabal in the JFK assassination -- appears to have been basically a morass of unfounded speculation.†

And of course, his later dealings with the Liberty Lobby and the IHR didn't exactly help to burnish his image much, either.

† Unless one buys the Secret Team / JFK hypothesis, that is -- which I don't.

Re:Daniel Ellsberg, Edward Snowden and the Modern Whistleblower by wallace_f on Monday December 12, 2016 @06:54PM (#13163243)
Great point. By the way, this was a point I believe Clinton and the Democratic party have been egregiously lying about. Clinton:

> When he emerged and when he absconded with all that material, I was puzzled, because we have all these protections for whistleblowers."

Source: https://freedom.press/news-advocacy/fact-checking-hillary-cl...

Re:Daniel Ellsberg, Edward Snowden and the Modern Whistleblower by eric_h on Monday December 12, 2016 @08:25PM (#13163723)
Thanks for linking to that article.

The most amusing part of it, IMO, is the last sentence: "privacy could be a more important election issue than ever."

Makes the political consciousness of 2014 seem so adorably naive.

Re:Daniel Ellsberg, Edward Snowden and the Modern Whistleblower by tptacek on Monday December 12, 2016 @04:52PM (#13162274)
While I agree that Drake and Binney were "leakers as insiders", I do not agree that this impacts the narrative of the article. Snowden wasn't an NSA outsider because he didn't want to be an insider. He was an NSA outsider because he was an NSA outsider --- his attempts to be an insider failed.

Moreover, there's more to the point Gladwell is making than that Snowden wasn't an insider. The core point of the piece is that Ellsberg's insider status enabled him to leak carefully, and to redact strategically. Snowden demonstrably did not do this: not only did things get published that weren't in the American public interest, but other things that were (for instance: traces of the Juniper/Netscreen backdoor, or implants in other VPN products) were never published.

It's not just that Snowden wasn't an insider, but that he lacked the ability to leak carefully and strategically --- and so the public outcome was inferior to the Pentagon Papers.

Re:Daniel Ellsberg, Edward Snowden and the Modern Whistleblower by MajesticHobo on Monday December 12, 2016 @06:48PM (#13163213)
> It's not just that Snowden wasn't an insider, but that he lacked the ability to leak carefully and strategically --- and so the public outcome was inferior to the Pentagon Papers.

This is hard to believe. I find it much more likely that Snowden had a broad agenda he wanted to cover, and simply decided to delegate the work of sifting through documents relevant to the public interest to journalists. How successful this strategy was is another issue entirely.

Also, the direct comparison between the material Ellsberg had to work with and what Snowden had is misleading. Ellsberg leaked a study from RAND literally designed to assess and document the history of the Vietnam War, including past failures. It's easy to look at that and go, "Wow, this is a careful, strategic disclosure." But Ellsberg couldn't have had an easier choice about what to leak!

In contrast, Snowden had access to a much more disparate set of documents that required lots of interpretation and technical parsing on journalists' part. There wasn't a single PowerPoint presentation that summed up NSA's abuses so conveniently.

That doesn't necessarily justify scraping as much as possible and passing it over to journos, but we have to keep the two men's access to material in context.

Re:Daniel Ellsberg, Edward Snowden and the Modern Whistleblower by tptacek on Monday December 12, 2016 @07:12PM (#13163353)
Can you be more specific about what exactly it is you find hard to believe, what you believe instead, and what evidence could be presented to you to change your belief?
Re:Daniel Ellsberg, Edward Snowden and the Modern Whistleblower by MajesticHobo on Monday December 12, 2016 @07:34PM (#13163460)
The notion that he "lacked the ability to leak carefully and strategically" because he was an outsider. I'm fairly sure he was more than capable of selecting only documents related to domestic surveillance if he wanted to -- that just wasn't his broader goal. However, I would definitely appreciate the argument that his status as an outsider rendered him opposed to the idea of leaking selectively. I think the author hinted at this when he contrasted "hackers" and "leakers", but it's still quite different from what you're saying.
Re:Daniel Ellsberg, Edward Snowden and the Modern Whistleblower by ScottBurson on Monday December 12, 2016 @10:12PM (#13164136)
I think the biggest reason the Pentagon Papers leak was so much more impactful was that there was already a much larger fraction of the citizenry sensitized to the issue and inclined to act on what was revealed.

Someone else made the point that Ellsberg was also lucky in that the information he wanted to leak was already collected into a document. It's hardly Snowden's fault that he didn't have this luxury.

Anyway, for the record, I don't disagree with the argument that a highly placed insider could have leaked better-selected material and overall been more effective -- albeit at a level of personal risk that can only be described as extreme (and much greater than what Ellsberg faced). In the event, however, no such person chose to leak the most important material that Snowden leaked.

The thrust of your argument seems to be that Snowden should have said to himself, "I'm just an IT lackey; what do I know?" and not attempted to rise to this occasion. That would be where we disagree. Yes, in some hypothetical alternate world, there might have been a better-placed leaker who would have made better choices and been more careful. But Snowden had no way to know that any such person would ever appear, and neither do you.

Re:Daniel Ellsberg, Edward Snowden and the Modern Whistleblower by jamez1 on Monday December 12, 2016 @06:16PM (#13162994)
The article seems to use the labels 'insider' and 'hacker' to contrast the intent of the two, when the labels should be just used to define their circumstances.

Both Snowden and Ellsberg appear to have done a good job at informing the public given those circumstances, Snowden's being inferior because his circumstances constrained him, not his intentions.

Did Snowden steal more data than he needs to because he's a hacker and he can't help himself? Or because he thought its better to take more than less, and then have the journalists figure out what's appropriate?

Re:Daniel Ellsberg, Edward Snowden and the Modern Whistleblower by thomasahle on Monday December 12, 2016 @05:59PM (#13162860)
It seems to me that the Snowden approach of leaving the decision of what should be published to journalists (such as the New York Times) is the better approach.

We don't really want anybody to leak anything they personally find interesting, but we do want (good) journalists to be able to discover important stories.

Re:Daniel Ellsberg, Edward Snowden and the Modern Whistleblower by tptacek on Monday December 12, 2016 @06:05PM (#13162910)
As I said elsewhere, the end result of this appears to have been demonstrably suboptimal --- again, stipulating that this is regarding the American public interest:

* Some stuff got published that was important and vital (though its impact on public policy was ultimately minimal).

* Some stuff got published that simply shouldn't have been leaked --- for instance, details of technical implants useful only in narrowly targeted espionage.

* Some stuff didn't get published that should have been --- for instance, in light of what we later discovered about Juniper/Netscreen, had everyone to do this earlier, a list of vendors impacted by VPN implants would have been helpful, and could have been doable.

* Some stuff got published that were simple false, such as the notion of a "PRISM" system that gave NSA direct access to Google's systems.

A more carefully curated, competently explained process of leaking could have improved all these outcomes, and that's exactly what Gladwell is suggesting Ellsberg accomplished that Snowden didn't.

Re:Daniel Ellsberg, Edward Snowden and the Modern Whistleblower by justcommenting on Monday December 12, 2016 @06:28PM (#13163078)
One could just as easily argue that if Ellsberg had focused on making documents public more quickly, more lives could have been saved during the Vietnam War.

Both were imperfect people in unique situations, but Gladwell's distinction seems to boil down to "Harvard, game theory, & Nobel prize winning PhD advisor" in the case of Ellsberg vs. "community-college dropout" in the case of Snowden, followed by Gladwell falling over himself to redefine "insider" right after spelling it out in detail with the language of class, prestige, and societal privilege.

I don't think Gladwell understands enough about either person - or "leaks" in general - to draw meaningful conclusions.

Re:Daniel Ellsberg, Edward Snowden and the Modern Whistleblower by tptacek on Monday December 12, 2016 @06:30PM (#13163103)
Well, first of all, thank you for putting it this succinctly; I honestly hadn't understood where the "elitism" claims were coming from, but, sure, that makes sense.

Here's the thing, though: Gladwell is probably not wrong about this. Ellsberg was far better read in to the program he leaked about that Snowden is to the topics of his leaks. As you can imagine, most of my industry friends and acquaintances are broadly pro-Snowden, and an argument that I've seen from literally none of them is that Edward Snowden had the technical expertise to either vet his documents himself, or to build a process whereby they would be effectively vetted. Which you can see by the shitshow that was the original PRISM disclosures.

Re:Daniel Ellsberg, Edward Snowden and the Modern Whistleblower by justcommenting on Monday December 12, 2016 @06:52PM (#13163231)
I wouldn't disagree with your friends and acquaintances on that point, but would suspect that they reached their conclusions differently from Gladwell.

Another potentially self-serving issue that Gladwell conveniently glosses over in this piece: We could also make the argument that Ellsberg also had a much more effective and courageous press and educated population behind him. But it's easier to smear community college drop-outs and discuss a hypothetical "Edward Snowberg" than a hypothetical New Yorker with more reporters like Jane Mayer than commentators like Gladwell.

Re:Daniel Ellsberg, Edward Snowden and the Modern Whistleblower by linkregister on Monday December 12, 2016 @06:14PM (#13162977)
I think it's a mistake to assume:

1. That the Juniper Netscreen backdoor was the work of NSA. Even Bruce Schneier doesn't conjecture that it was NSA in his blog post on the topic.

2. That Edward Snowden had access to all documents of public interest, such as the Dual_EC vulnerability injection or malware specifics. Edward Snowden said that he worked with journalists to leak the documents with the most public interest.

Re:Daniel Ellsberg, Edward Snowden and the Modern Whistleblower by tptacek on Monday December 12, 2016 @06:23PM (#13163045)
1. I didn't say that the Netscreen backdoor was NSA (I don't think it was).

2. I believe you are wrong about Dual_EC's representation in the Snowden document cache, and believe that because of some particularly trustworthy secondhand sources that told me so. However: that's actually not the complaint I have; rather: putting more attention on VPN concentrators as implant targets would have been beneficial no matter what the technical details were.

Re:Daniel Ellsberg, Edward Snowden and the Modern Whistleblower by linkregister on Monday December 12, 2016 @06:49PM (#13163214)
I still assert that it's likely that Snowden didn't have that information. I do not have access to the original Snowden documents so I can't verify whether they are included in the document cache or not.

I'm confused as to why you brought up the Netscreen backdooring as an omission, then admit that you don't think it was NSA. Are you saying that the Netscreen backdoor was known by the NSA as an adversarial nation's work? Please clarify.

Re:Daniel Ellsberg, Edward Snowden and the Modern Whistleblower by tptacek on Monday December 12, 2016 @07:13PM (#13163359)
I don't think anyone thinks Snowden knew he had that information --- that's part of the problem. But I know people who are in position to know who assert directly that his leaks included that material.
Re:Daniel Ellsberg, Edward Snowden and the Modern Whistleblower by linkregister on Monday December 12, 2016 @07:36PM (#13163471)
Ok, I didn't fully understand your point. You disagree with the "dump all docs on Greenwald and hope for the best" method of leaking, as does the author of the article (and I do).

Thanks for responding.

Re:Daniel Ellsberg, Edward Snowden and the Modern Whistleblower by smoyer on Monday December 12, 2016 @04:14PM (#13161968)
Plus Snowden didn't study game theory at Harvard and he wasn't schooled on the utility of leaks.