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Re:Where Do the Failed 0.1% Go? (2015) [pdf] by japhyr on Saturday December 10, 2016 @11:48AM (#13146468)
Teachers disliked him, because they knew how easily he picked up information.

I'm a teacher, and this is one of the things that frustrates me deeply about our education system. I welcome students like this; they're so much fun to work with. But I usually have to make them feel accepted before I can begin to work with them. I teach in a small alternative high school, and by the time bright students get to me, they're often used to being shut down for picking things up quickly and not having to do homework.

I met a really bright and interesting guy once who told me about his experience in first grade. His teacher gave everyone a math workbook, and he was really excited to be learning math. He finished the workbook in a day or two, and excitedly brought it to his teacher, expecting to be given another workbook. Instead she glared at him and said something along the lines of, "I can't believe you cheated on your math workbook in first grade!" She gave him another copy of the same workbook and told him to do start over, and that she'd be watching him. He thought to himself, "Well that sucked, but she'll watch me do it this time and know I can do it." So he did, but this time she just got mad at him and said something like, "I don't have anything else for you to do, so here's another copy of the workbook. Don't finish this so quickly."

He learned what so many bright kids learn: if you learn things too quickly and speak up, you'll just make the adults around you mad and they'll give you more meaningless work to do. I know there are many teachers who handle bright kids really well, but as a system we fail many kids. These effects last years, and often times decades.

Re:Where Do the Failed 0.1% Go? (2015) [pdf] by tonyarkles on Saturday December 10, 2016 @12:36PM (#13146742)
I had a high school computer science instructor who did a really good job of this. I had already learned C (on DOS) by age 11 or 12, and thus the Visual Basic course in high school was pretty easy for me to do. I took the class pretty much to boost my average and have computer science credits on my transcript.

Anyway, I get my first assignment back, 10/10. Awesome, just like I expected. Get my second assignment back, 9/10. What? Oh, he didn't feel like I had commented my code very well. Ok. I'll do better next time. Next assignment, 8/10. I had used "x" as a variable name, and another pickier detail. Next assignment, 7/10. Even pickier details; things like UI spacing. The worst was that my peers, who struggled a lot more and their code was often pretty bad, they were doing better than I was in the class!

But I kept at it and kept improving, getting better and better at nailing down every possible detail. Managed to get marks back around the 8/10 to 9/10 range, but never 10/10. Nearing the end of the course, I started looking back at my grades and came to a brutal realization: "I'm significantly better at this than most of the people in the course, but my marks don't reflect that!"

I went and talked to him and raised my concerns. He gets this big grin on his face and says "Oh, I've been recording those as 100%s the whole time. I just wanted to keep challenging you, within the scope of what the curriculum gives me. I really wish I could have given you better projects, but that gets pretty complicated pretty quickly. You're doing fine, and I think you've improved a lot since the start of the course."

Ended up getting the "Best grade in Computer Science" award that year. Thanks Jeff!

Re:Where Do the Failed 0.1% Go? (2015) [pdf] by matt_wulfeck on Saturday December 10, 2016 @12:55PM (#13146852)
This is such a tough thing about the arbitrary grading styles of grade school. They're grading to "help you improve", not to confirm your abilities. However, as you see it very much can hinder your abilities without the right teacher! I remember many experiences where I lose faith in the teachers ability to accurately grade. It's down hill for many of us from this point without solid mentors.

This changed for me in college. I hope it got better for you as well.

Re:Where Do the Failed 0.1% Go? (2015) [pdf] by tonyarkles on Saturday December 10, 2016 @01:57PM (#13147218)
It really did change in university, but it was a pretty serious wake up call; the material was genuinely challenging (electrical engineering/comp sci dual degree). The really great thing about it was that I could stick to the defined path for the stuff that I found really challenging, and stake out my own path for the stuff that was coming too easy.

Edit: I almost failed out of engineering during my first year because I hadn't properly developed the skills and habits necessary for really putting effort into challenging school work. I do joke a little bit about the 51% I got in "intro to statics": since it's a 51% and not a 50%, I know that I earned that 51 and it wasn't a mercy pass :)

As an example, my EE degree doesn't have any out of the ordinary stuff in it. We had a fair bit of latitude in choosing courses, so I went towards DSP and FPGAs, just because I found that stuff more interesting (and easier to be engaged in), compared to say power systems.

My CMPT degree, though, I once again found myself in a position where a lot of it was too easy (A kid who has been hacking on C and assembler for 6 or 8 years is going to be miles ahead of the other first years who are writing code for the first time). So I went ahead and loaded my schedule up with more challenging courses (elective advanced algorithms, elective compilers, etc).

The only flaw with that plan was that most of the harder courses were dual listed as undergrad/grad courses, so when I went back for grad school there were a bunch of courses I couldn't take, because I'd already taken them in undergrad. It all turned out well though.

Re:Where Do the Failed 0.1% Go? (2015) [pdf] by ryandrake on Saturday December 10, 2016 @12:37PM (#13146761)
It's not that the teachers _dislike_ him, it's that they are frustrated that he is not following the curriculum and conforming to the lesson sequence and timeframe planned for.

I found US public school education was not about learning and mastery. It's about conformity and obedience. Learning the subject matter is secondary--the key to succeeding at this institution is to do things in the expected way, at the expected pace, even if it is mind-numbingly verbose and slow. It's a hack: You learn the expectations and do the bare minimum of what is precisely expected, because both less than and greater than the bare minimum will be penalized. I had a rough time in school until I grokked this hack.

Do your homework. It's easy of course, just takes a long time to do since so much gets assigned. The point of doing homework is not to learn, it's to show obedience--you were told to do the homework and you did it.

Show your work. It doesn't matter if you can do division in your head, kid. You're expected to write down the specified intermediate steps so just turn your brain off and do it. The point is to follow the prescribed process, not to master the subject.

Class participation. This is a gift to the outgoing/popular/sports kids to inflate their grades. Just figure out how many times you need to say something in order to get full credit, then raise your hand and say something (anything, it usually doesn't matter) that amount of times.

Public schooling is a series of hoops that you need to jump through at no slower or faster than the prescribed pace. The smart kids figure this out. The REALLY smart kids tend not to figure it out unfortunately.

Re:Where Do the Failed 0.1% Go? (2015) [pdf] by cmrdporcupine on Saturday December 10, 2016 @01:07PM (#13146922)
Unfortunately all these 'lessons' mimic skills that will be needed by adults in the corporate world. Work in groups even when they're dysfunctional, show off and write lots of supporting documentation to get yourself promoted, and learn to tolerate seemingly arbitrary or broken management decisions.
Re:Where Do the Failed 0.1% Go? (2015) [pdf] by ryandrake on Saturday December 10, 2016 @01:25PM (#13147027)
I don't know if it's unfortunate. It's certainly by design. The societal purpose of public schooling is to prepare the future service workers and corporate drones of America to follow procedures and not get too curious. The (pre-determined) future leaders of America have their own track with private/prep schools, tutors, and Ivy League higher-ed, where the focus/purpose is, I would imagine, very different.
Re:Where Do the Failed 0.1% Go? (2015) [pdf] by fjdlwlv on Saturday December 10, 2016 @04:13PM (#13147945)
This is a silly myth. The privileged upper class don't get a special better-designrf education, they get a professional network that puts them in power regardless of their education. There's no special high school class that teaches "skills for becoming a CEO or a Congressperson".
Re:Where Do the Failed 0.1% Go? (2015) [pdf] by jacobolus on Saturday December 10, 2016 @08:53PM (#13149139)
I went to a better-than-average public high school and then a top tier college and I spent lots of time with people who went to prep school. There are substantial differences between prep school vs. public school in a rich well educated area vs. public school in a poor area.

Prep schools are most certainly better (on average) at teaching students to be assertive, seek out opportunities, bend rules, etc. The coursework is harder and more engaging than even top-track classes at good public high schools. On average students get more individual attention from teachers.

Likewise, there is a wide gap between work difficulty and quantity and expected levels of preparation at top tier colleges vs. average colleges. At top tier colleges, the typical student is incredibly ambitious, and there is a categorical difference between the extent to which typical students seek leadership opportunities and pursue impressive goals. (This is not to diminish the work of typical students at average schools, many of whom come from difficult circumstances and must struggle to pay the bills, etc. And of course there are some amazingly ambitious and talented students even at mediocre schools who do amazing work.)

There are surely still many problems with even the best schools, but the difference is by no means limited to professional networks.

Re:Where Do the Failed 0.1% Go? (2015) [pdf] by jdietrich on Saturday December 10, 2016 @09:23PM (#13149240)
Read up on English public (private) schools like Eton or Harrow. The privileged upper class do indeed get a special better-designed education.

These schools are factories for CEOs and politicians. They have the absolute best teaching, the best resources, a culture that not only encourages high achievement but expects it. If an Etonian or Harrovian says that he wants to be Prime Minister, nobody bats an eyelid - the odds are fairly good that he might well be.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9tcRXHyEKC4

Re:Where Do the Failed 0.1% Go? (2015) [pdf] by wnevets on Saturday December 10, 2016 @04:22PM (#13147982)
While true, those that come from real money aren't sitting a class room with 30+ other students.
Re:Where Do the Failed 0.1% Go? (2015) [pdf] by mathperson on Saturday December 10, 2016 @04:54PM (#13148155)
no they also do so. its just that the class is more like 20 and the teacher is very good. -source have sat in public school (also a VERY well funded publisc school) class with friends with parent's net worth > 90 million
Re:Where Do the Failed 0.1% Go? (2015) [pdf] by mrottenkolber on Saturday December 10, 2016 @09:10PM (#13149204)
I know a lot of people who did what you recommend and it broke them all mentally. Its really hard to regain self respect and adjust back to reality when you obey for 10+ years.

So I will give the opposite advice: Rebel. Be a pain. Skip class. Don't get into college.

If you're unlucky that might close lots of career gates, but at least you got your sanity, and that's the most important thing. A healthy mind is worth a bunch.

Re:Where Do the Failed 0.1% Go? (2015) [pdf] by WalterBright on Saturday December 10, 2016 @07:40PM (#13148883)
> It doesn't matter if you can do division in your head, kid. You're expected to write down the specified intermediate steps so just turn your brain off and do it. The point is to follow the prescribed process, not to master the subject.

Some people can intuitively do division in their head for simple problems, but if they don't learn the mechanical algorithm for it, they are unable to do more complex division.

BTW, I've implemented divide routines in assembler before CPUs had a divide instruction. I used the same algorithm I learned in 3rd grade. Polynomial division also uses the same algorithm.

There is a point to learning an algorithm, even if you already know the answer.

Re:Where Do the Failed 0.1% Go? (2015) [pdf] by Hyperborian on Saturday December 10, 2016 @06:06PM (#13148432)
> I found US public school education was not about learning and mastery. It's about conformity and obedience.

Bingo.

There has been much improvement in curriculum over the years, certainly, but the structure of the American school system is still basically the same one that was originally designed expressly to produce a body of conforming and obedient factory workers with a consistent and predicable level of skills.

Re:Where Do the Failed 0.1% Go? (2015) [pdf] by tunap on Saturday December 10, 2016 @03:07PM (#13147617)
My math teachers at two different high schools often had library passes ready for me on non-test/quiz days. All I had to do was hand in tomorrows homework assignment today. I had to do all the questions, they wouldn't tell me what cherry-picked questions would be assigned. Worked out well to have me not distracting classtime but I never got any encouragement to continue into advanced maths. My freshman college counselor told me all my prerequisites had been satisfied in HS, don't bother taking more maths. 18yo me was happy to hear it. Meh.
Re:Where Do the Failed 0.1% Go? (2015) [pdf] by cryptarch on Saturday December 10, 2016 @01:18PM (#13146988)
I think that at most public schools there are two separate paths of least resistance:

* Do most of your homework and get acceptable grades. This is what most students do.

* Don't do jack and be consistent. Many teachers will give up if you never do homework, and if you skip enough classes there won't be enough time to sit out all your due detention. It's also well possible that your school has a leaky detention administration and it ends up never happening.

Re:Where Do the Failed 0.1% Go? (2015) [pdf] by jddjdbdbd3 on Saturday December 10, 2016 @05:35PM (#13148312)
I chose path b. Never did homework. I always forgot it. If you passively deflect enough, people will eventually just give up. Especially when you get good to excellent grades in the exams. The same worked at university. Dont go to lectures, dont do coursework or go to practicals. Get the past exam papers and learn to solve them over a month to two months before the exams. Solid 2.1, job done. Except I was utterly miserible through out that whole time. Lol. I could have been working in theoretical physics had my childhood not been a car wreck. Nope, doing web development, so dull :(
Re:Where Do the Failed 0.1% Go? (2015) [pdf] by clairity on Saturday December 10, 2016 @01:10PM (#13146935)
as i learned when i went to college, figuring out this hack was actually not so clever unless you find ways to keep learning and improving despite the imposed limitations.
Re:Where Do the Failed 0.1% Go? (2015) [pdf] by vinbreau on Saturday December 10, 2016 @02:22PM (#13147365)
I grew up in a small rural town in the 80's. I was one of the first kids to have a computer in that area. I was 9 years old in 1980 and had begged for one. By the time I entered high school I was just starting to learn Assembly. Our school had never had a computer course before and the first one opened up my Freshman year. I was so excited. The teacher was also the Typing class teacher and had almost no experience with computers. She was picked solely because she could type.

On the first day I excitedly told the teacher how much I was looking forward to the class and how much I already knew. She gave me the course book to bring home and asked me to find the spot in the book where my knowledge could be tested. It was a huge disappointment, the courses mostly focused on spreadsheets and data entry with some Basic programming. I had already written many programs on my own to automate various tasks. I had written a few simple video games, worked with joystick inputs, even built a simple alarm system for my room using serial input and some basic wiring.

When I brought her the book the next day and explained I already knew everything in the book she got visibly upset with me. Her attitude towards me became terse and she decided I was too big for my own good and should start at the beginning. That course was pure misery. I'd finish my lessons within the first half of a single class and have nothing to do. I'd start tweaking my programs, but it felt like fiddling my thumbs. The teacher came to treat me like a bad element and in return I became antagonistic to her.

I once switched the cables between my and a friends computer so my typing would go to his screen and vice versa. I showed the teacher I had ahem programmed the computer to react to my voice. My friend would type in the responses to my voice, his results appearing on my screen. The teacher looked dumbfounded, she seriously could not process what was happening and sat down at her desk. It was hard to respect a computer class teacher who couldn't figure out how easily we had tricked her. From there it just got worse and worse.

I had many teachers like this, where they felt I was too big for my britches and needed to be put in my place. I was very much like the first kid described in this essay.

Re:Where Do the Failed 0.1% Go? (2015) [pdf] by sidek on Saturday December 10, 2016 @03:47PM (#13147807)
My most distinct memory of early education is my grade seven teacher yelling at me, saying that he never wanted to see me read a book in his classroom ever again. I used to read books in class after I finished whatever trivial in-class work we had... apparently, this was more annoying to him than the kids who didn't do their work and loudly talked about their drug consumption.
Re:Where Do the Failed 0.1% Go? (2015) [pdf] by jdeibele on Saturday December 10, 2016 @04:36PM (#13148069)
Somewhere along the way in public school I learned to put my book in my lap and my head on the desk.

Evidently it was OK if I looked like I was asleep ...

Re:Where Do the Failed 0.1% Go? (2015) [pdf] by belovedeagle on Saturday December 10, 2016 @10:04PM (#13149375)
The thought of anyone getting ahead in life is truly frightening to these people.
Re:Where Do the Failed 0.1% Go? (2015) [pdf] by hunterwerlla on Saturday December 10, 2016 @11:53AM (#13146497)
You are taking that quote way out of context the next part of the sentence "but then he never made an effort to improve his grades" is the relevant part. They dislike him because he didn't try to improve not because he was good at picking up information.
Re:Where Do the Failed 0.1% Go? (2015) [pdf] by japhyr on Saturday December 10, 2016 @11:57AM (#13146521)
I read never made an effort to improve his grades as refusing to do the rote work that schools often require in order to earn a high grade. I've seen so many situations where students pass their tests with perfect scores, but receive low grades because they don't do their homework and don't do all of their in-class assignments.
Re:Where Do the Failed 0.1% Go? (2015) [pdf] by CiPHPerCoder on Saturday December 10, 2016 @12:02PM (#13146551)
That was me, except I did most of the in-class assignments. Homework was actually detrimental to my understanding: I'd lose interest in the subject and forget things.

(I'm glad that, instead of doing homework, I spent my spare time teaching myself more interesting subjects.)

Re:Where Do the Failed 0.1% Go? (2015) [pdf] by patcheudor on Saturday December 10, 2016 @12:29PM (#13146709)
I was a "C" student in high-school and the teachers mostly hated me, but so did a lot of the students. It wasn't until my 20 year high-school reunion when the class valedictorian told me this that I understood why there was so much animosity:

"You were so smart, far smarter than me, but you refused to apply yourself. You wouldn't do the assignments, didn't pay any attention in class, and generally didn't care about school at all. I hated you for that and I'm sorry."

Re:Where Do the Failed 0.1% Go? (2015) [pdf] by jddjdbdbd3 on Saturday December 10, 2016 @05:42PM (#13148340)
Yeah, took me until early 20s to realise this. I just always thought everyone else had the same contempt for seeking praise from authority that I did. I just thought they were all just really good actors. It simply did not occur to me that anyone would want to recieve praise from a "superior", let alone be annoyed with those who waste the opportunity to gather that praise.
Re:Where Do the Failed 0.1% Go? (2015) [pdf] by JoeAltmaier on Saturday December 10, 2016 @11:55AM (#13146506)
In fact that may be the curse of the smart kid - things come so easily they won't put in effort when it is required. They become lazy.
Re:Where Do the Failed 0.1% Go? (2015) [pdf] by existencebox on Saturday December 10, 2016 @12:25PM (#13146691)
This was my story. I wouldn't even say I'm particularly "smart", just clever enough to not need to work very hard at much until late high school. BC calc kicked in, all of a sudden I was failing a class for the first time. College kicked in, all of a sudden I was getting low grades even in my strengths. It took a year of that before I even learned the most rudimentary patterns of studying and practice, and over a decade (still learning) to bake those patterns into my day to day behavior.

What makes me very sad, as a slightly tangential note, my university had covered grades first semester freshman year. This let me do terribly, learn from that experience, and not have it impact my future prospects. They've since removed that, and I honestly feel sorry for new generations of students to have one less helpful safety net. With a good support system in place to help recovery, the chance to fail (in a scenario that would be "non-terminal") has been critical to my learning to suck less across the board.

Re:Where Do the Failed 0.1% Go? (2015) [pdf] by patcheudor on Saturday December 10, 2016 @12:39PM (#13146773)
I think you've come upon the laziest conclusion possible. I was one of those smart 'lazy' kids & my poor performance in school wasn't in any way due to being lazy, rather it was due to not caring about school. By middle-school I'd figured out grades don't matter. My parents made too much for me to qualify for college scholarships and honestly, I didn't need scholarships anyway since money wasn't remotely an issue in my family. I simply needed to ace one test.

Because I knew grades didn't matter and that college was covered I didn't do the work, not because I was lazy, but because it was busy work & I had better things to do like running a regional BBS, cracking software, and writing demos in 6502 assembler.

Re:Where Do the Failed 0.1% Go? (2015) [pdf] by JoeAltmaier on Saturday December 10, 2016 @02:30PM (#13147416)
So 'lazy' and 'not caring about school' are different? Sounds like rationalization, which middle-schoolers are very good at.
Re:Where Do the Failed 0.1% Go? (2015) [pdf] by electronvolt on Saturday December 10, 2016 @05:22PM (#13148255)
I'd argue that they pretty clearly are different, if you're talking about generic laziness-as-a-quality versus subject specific laziness.

Someone who isn't interested in school might be willing to work very hard at improving in a sport, or work very hard on their extracurricular club, or work very hard to teach themselves assembly and programming, or to learn a musical instrument. They might even be willing to work hard to teach themselves math, but be uninterested in putting effort into math class.

I guess it depends on if you consider "laziness" a universal character quality or not.

Re:Where Do the Failed 0.1% Go? (2015) [pdf] by existencebox on Sunday December 11, 2016 @11:47AM (#13151844)
Despite having agreed with you above, I'd agree with the dissenting post here as well, that while not caring about something can lead to being lazy regarding it, they are not intrinsically the same thing. I care about my house, but I'm still lazy about getting on the roof and cleaning the gutters. I don't care about many of the jobs I've held in the past, but have still done the day to day work to the best of my ability because professionalism. If we're looking deeply at psychological cause and effect, there may be some utility to examining whether the outcome roots in one or the other. (for me it was both)
Re:Where Do the Failed 0.1% Go? (2015) [pdf] by throwaway942 on Saturday December 10, 2016 @12:36PM (#13146744)
Thankfully I had some teachers, like you, who thought I was fun to work with. When I exceeded her class, she had a college professor friend of hers slip in work for me, and occasionally supplemental tutoring.

It was awesome. Being able to challenge myself with upper division calculus while stuck in state-mandated algebra was probably the only reason I survived those courses.