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Re:Meaningness by nickstefan12 on Friday December 09, 2016 @07:31PM (#13143154)
> If you seriously attempt existentialism, you will fail. You cannot create your own meanings. If you take that failure seriously, and analyze what went wrong, you may recognize that subjective meanings are impossible. Then—since objective meanings are also clearly impossible—you will end up in nihilism. > The way out is to recognize that meaningness is neither subjective nor objective. It is a collaborative accomplishment of dynamic interaction. One might say that it lives in the space-between subject and object; or that it pervades the situation in which it manifests, including both subject and object. But these metaphors are misleading; meanings simply don’t have locations.

The word gymnastics used on that site to disqualify "everybody else's muddled middle" except for his own personal version of a "muddled middle" seems hypocritical. He talks in enough circles, and we are supposed to forget that his muddled middle is pretty much all the other muddled middles he says can't work.

I wasted so much time reading philosophy stuff in college. Its like a virus that infects the mind, "there must be a RIGHT answer!" and the infected mind goes in circles arguing with itself. Its an infinite recursive loop without a base case.

The base case is this: "would you rather be right or would you rather be happy?" its not meant to mean that we should all get on "brave new world" soma. what it does though, is get your mind out of that infinite loop of "i must know the RIGHT answer with certainty!". These sorts of topics have no certainty. They are topics worth considering, but trying to find "correct" is just missing the forest from the trees.

Re:Meaningness by projektir on Friday December 09, 2016 @08:15PM (#13143394)
I don't think it's fair to say that because the answer to the question of "there must be a right answer!" is very hard to find, that the question is not worth pondering.

What if we approached physics that way? And decided that we shouldn't bother trying to explain gravity because many people in college pondered the question in circles and couldn't answer it?

Hard questions may just be... hard. And maybe this is far harder than physics.

Re:Meaningness by nickstefan12 on Friday December 09, 2016 @09:55PM (#13143732)
Its more than things being "hard". Its about the nature of the questions philosophers try and answer.

Kant and his Critique of Pure Reason has those 4 quadrants of "knowing". A priori vs posteriori. Synthetic vs analytic. Its literally a CRITIQUE of how far pure reason can take us. In the area much of philosophy dances in, pure reason simple cant take us very far!

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Analytic%E2%80%93synthetic_dis...

Finding "a" reason to live matters far more than finding "the" reason to live. Would we rather be happy or would we rather be right?

I like this quote attributed to Kant: "Rules for happiness: something to do, someone to love, and something to hope for".

Re:Meaningness by projektir on Friday December 09, 2016 @10:56PM (#13143940)
I'm generally interested in philosophy relative to most normal people as opposed to philosophers, and, to normal people, there are many very real questions that are worth answering, including those relating to meaning.

Those questions seem like they can be summarized as "What is going on, what should I do, and why?"

> Finding "a" reason to live matters far more than finding "the" reason to live. Would we rather be happy or would we rather be right?

This framing seems strange to me.

When you make this statement you already make a claim: that the reason to live is to seek happiness.

Re:Meaningness by keithly on Friday December 09, 2016 @11:23PM (#13144005)
Seems like you did get something out of all that time you wasted on philosophy. :)
Re:Meaningness by praveer13 on Saturday December 10, 2016 @12:19AM (#13144181)
The difference here is that physics has an established set of rules to define what is a meaningless question and what is a meaningful question. There is a reason metaphysics is not physics.
Re:Meaningness by hasbroslasher on Sunday December 11, 2016 @03:12PM (#13152911)
This perspective is a bit uncharitable towards metaphysics - there are rules in that game as well. You're still not allowed to ask logically inconsistent questions or twist words into nonsense and expect to be taken seriously.

For instance, saying things like "Meaningness is neither subjective nor objective" sets off alarms in my mind - that's quite the claim! If you're making that claim, you better be well prepared to provide a rigorous explanation of what you mean or be laughed out of the room by people who understand what those words mean. The author chooses to just throw a couple of pseudo-intellectual sentences together and then say "it's obvious!" and move on.

Another example of this is when people say that determinism and free will are consistent with one another - it's a big claim and it takes some work to explain. A few people actually do this well, but it's because they resort to really really rigorous explanations and models of how "will" works in people - taken in part from everyday experience. Those who provide shoddy accounts of this or just say "yeah whatever let's move on" are no more metaphysicians than is the person who says "what if electrons are the particles that cause love, man??"

Re:Meaningness by projektir on Saturday December 10, 2016 @12:42AM (#13144247)
I'm curious as to what set of rules you're referring to?
Re:Meaningness by nomel on Sunday December 11, 2016 @01:15AM (#13149847)
I assume this is a statement to provoke thought, and surely not a literal inability to understand his context.

The difference is that something like "meaning of existence" can never be defined or even predicted since it depends on the individual, since it's only relevant within the fictitious ramblings of a single mind. An insane persons meaning could never match a rule since it would be capable of defining its own fictitious rules, which would be equally relevant.

Physics doesn't depend on a mind or understanding. It will "be" regardless.

Or at least that's how I see it.

Re:Meaningness by projektir on Monday December 12, 2016 @01:22PM (#13160382)
It's just something I've never seen outlined like that. That makes it sound like there's a committee out there that decides what questions can be asked.

I've been reading a lot about physics lately, and many things are quite... out there... and I felt like I had to go back and sort of rewire my brain a few times.

Some physics questions are simple enough: "What happens if we do this?" But some seem less tractable, such as what does it mean for something to be the last level of "matter", what does "one dimensional string" really mean, why is the speed of light the maximum, etc., and a lot of theories come from what seems to be philosophical intuition more than number crunching.

I'd be very curious to see a strict definition of "questions physics scientists are allowed to ask".

> The difference is that something like "meaning of existence" can never be defined or even predicted since it depends on the individual, since it's only relevant within the fictitious ramblings of a single mind.

Funny, I can't agree with that. That to me sounds like you're just pushing your own opinion. I fully believe that there is such a thing as meaning of existence, but I may be using a very mundane definition of "meaning". Perhaps such questions seem undefinable because someone forgot to define the word "meaning" again.

I believe it's all physics in the end, one is just a lot better understood than the other, so the other looks like you can't nail it down and therefore isn't "real". But just like with physics, it leads somewhere, and predictions can be made...

Re:Meaningness by pasquinelli on Saturday December 10, 2016 @12:46AM (#13144257)
"Its like a virus that infects the mind, 'there must be a RIGHT answer!' and the infected mind goes in circles arguing with itself."

I think that's a strange and, honestly, naive way if looking at the whole thing. As far as I see it nearly every philosophical position basically makes a sense. They're all valid, and as far as their soundness goes, often the subject matter doesn't allow us to have any good strong opinions. It's interesting the variety of thinking there is and the arguments to be made for one position or another.

If you're caught looking for the one right answer then yeah, I agree that's a virus, but it is independent of philosophy.

Re:Meaningness by smhost on Friday December 09, 2016 @07:48PM (#13143242)
But isn't that exactly what Chapman is saying? That there is no RIGHT answer, that there is no certainty, that each view has merit but isn't universally true, etc.
Re:Meaningness by nickstefan12 on Friday December 09, 2016 @09:42PM (#13143696)
I believe that you are correct. The essence of his "intent" is probably not much different than what I'm getting at. I think what bothers me is that there is such an emphasis on precision of language and precision of "history of vocabulary" that the idea gets lost in an effort to differentiate.

It's highly likely I'm being too harsh on him. I probably have baggage from having read a lot of this kind of stuff and having it leave me less than satisfied. My apologies.

Perhaps what bothers me is that he spends a lot of time tearing down and differentiating from others, and less time telling us what he actually does believes in.

Re:Meaningness by justinmk on Friday December 09, 2016 @08:08PM (#13143356)
David Hume arrived at a reasonably rigorous framework (Principle of Nature's Uniformity) that allows your conclusion, in my opinion. He's worth reading, if only to find enough closure to move on from philosophy.
Re:Meaningness by openfuture on Friday December 09, 2016 @09:34PM (#13143668)
My solution: Just take responsibility for your actions and everything else falls into place.
Re:Meaningness by jv22222 on Saturday December 10, 2016 @01:24AM (#13144367)
Agreed. I'll take that one step further. Take responsibility for all that you output AND all of your input.

I.e If someone does something that makes you unhappy, on some level you have agreed to allow that to make you unhappy. You can also decide to not be affected by that input.

Not saying it's easy, just saying that that it's possible to have some control of response to input.