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Re:“AV is my single biggest impediment to shipping a secure ... by wyldfire on Thursday December 01, 2016 @10:26AM (#13079941)
> @VessOnSecurity whines about a lack of hooks

I think that "Antivirus" arrived as a bandaid during the decades when security was taken seriously by some consumers but not by the OS/app software vendors. It started out as "inspect the system for signatures of malicious executables" and evolved to include "clever active mechanisms to avoid infection."

I think that there should be no need for the "active mechanisms to avoid infection" part and that is ultimately the responsibility of the OS/app vendors.

Unfortunately, through their inaction, OS/app vendors have allowed an industry to arrive. This industry will be reluctant to forfeit their position. Clearly if they think they're entitled to some consideration in the browser design, they will not go away without a fight.

Re:“AV is my single biggest impediment to shipping a secure ... by m12k on Thursday December 01, 2016 @10:35AM (#13080018)
'Bandaid' is going easy on them - what AV is selling is an antipattern. "Blacklist the bad executables" is so obviously ineffective and ultimately infeasible compared to "whitelist the good executables"
Re:“AV is my single biggest impediment to shipping a secure ... by sambe on Thursday December 01, 2016 @11:02AM (#13080296)
I'm no fan of AV (I think they've totally failed to improve quality for decades, and now live off of fear-mongering) and not an expert but that seems too harsh.

At the time this arrangement was designed, getting any kind of automatic software update was unusual, let alone regular updates or communication back to the update system. It's hard to imagine an AV doing this successfully at the time. What if the user installs a new version of a program and you have no internet connection? Ask them? Do you trust their answer? At the same time, the number of unique new viruses was substantially smaller and slower-spreading so easier to "detect" (it was never clear to me how much "detection" really happened vs pure signature matching).

Re:“AV is my single biggest impediment to shipping a secure ... by indolering on Friday December 02, 2016 @05:10PM (#13092773)
It's shameful that OS security updates still aren't applied automatically and AV was useful when viruses were simple.

However, AV vendors started pushing heuristics that look for things like contacting IRC servers. Any application that moves large amounts of data around will run into hash collisions and developers have to run around asking to be added to a whitelist.

These heuristics do not scale and mislead consumers into thinking that their computer is safe because it has antivirus. In reality, we need to re-architect operating systems to be safer.

Re:“AV is my single biggest impediment to shipping a secure ... by munin on Thursday December 01, 2016 @01:19PM (#13081880)
AV hasn't been about "blacklist the bad executables" for a long, long time.
Re:“AV is my single biggest impediment to shipping a secure ... by integricho on Thursday December 01, 2016 @10:35AM (#13080019)
This is an interesting point. Could AV become obsolete in the future, provided the security of OSes becomes good enough?
Re:“AV is my single biggest impediment to shipping a secure ... by mfukar on Thursday December 01, 2016 @10:46AM (#13080127)
AVs have been obsolete in every way imaginable when it comes to offense. As another comment said, they're less effective than band-aids - not only they can be bypassed almost trivially, they increase attack surface.
Re:“AV is my single biggest impediment to shipping a secure ... by eitland on Friday December 02, 2016 @12:26AM (#13086264)
> not only they can be bypassed almost trivially,

Sounds almost crazy but I agree as I saw some 17y.o. students I taught who created a simple, autoupdating undetected .exe trojan in autohotkey in an evening or so.

Re:“AV is my single biggest impediment to shipping a secure ... by jdmichal on Thursday December 01, 2016 @01:10PM (#13081775)
I haven't installed an antivirus program since Microsoft released their Security Essentials / Windows Defender pairing in Vista. I think we're already there -- it's just taking time to reverse the years of beating the antivirus drum into the common perception.
Re:“AV is my single biggest impediment to shipping a secure ... by 0xfeba on Thursday December 01, 2016 @11:06AM (#13080358)
MS seems to think so, they have been pushing their own security product in Win8+

https://movietvtechgeeks.com/microsoft-antivirus-cant-defend...

Re:“AV is my single biggest impediment to shipping a secure ... by jdmichal on Thursday December 01, 2016 @01:11PM (#13081791)
Since XP / Vista, actually. Windows 8 is when they integrated Microsoft Security Essentials into Windows Defender as a full OS component.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_Security_Essentials

Re:“AV is my single biggest impediment to shipping a secure ... by pjmlp on Thursday December 01, 2016 @03:10PM (#13083029)
Also on Win 10 Anniversary onwards they are pushing more sandboxing in form of device guard and secure kernel.

Basically as a evolution of MinWin, there is now a micro-kernel for security critical code sandboxed via HyperV.

Re:“AV is my single biggest impediment to shipping a secure ... by Mystrl on Thursday December 01, 2016 @03:25PM (#13083175)
AV is already obsolete as far as I can tell.
Re:“AV is my single biggest impediment to shipping a secure ... by masklinn on Thursday December 01, 2016 @03:32PM (#13083239)
AV was obsolete 15 years ago at least.
Re:“AV is my single biggest impediment to shipping a secure ... by 6nf on Friday December 02, 2016 @12:29AM (#13086270)
iOS does reasonably well
Re:“AV is my single biggest impediment to shipping a secure ... by sqeaky on Thursday December 01, 2016 @11:00AM (#13080258)
> through their inaction

"Their"... Was there some other vendor worse than Microsoft? It has seemed sane to attempt to avoid infection on every other platform I have used in the last 15 years or so.

Re:“AV is my single biggest impediment to shipping a secure ... by Canada on Thursday December 01, 2016 @03:45PM (#13083353)
Microsoft had the biggest market share, and a near monopoly on unskilled users who don't understand the consequences of their actions. Other operating systems didn't have much better security, but they were less attractive to malware authors.

Now the mobile systems are the mass market thing. AV never took off because the sand boxing and app vetting, while not perfect, is more effective than AV ever was.

Though I must say, Microsoft did create a mess with its office macros and handling of file extensions. For a while they were certainly guilty of offering an environment that made it tough for the layman to know the manner in which something would open.

Re:“AV is my single biggest impediment to shipping a secure ... by tracker1 on Friday December 02, 2016 @10:39AM (#13089444)
Well, allowing script to run in email, and insult to injury, running them in "local" (ie full privileges) security zone didn't help... not locking down the filesystem and jet (which has fs access) active-x controls earlier on from browser (and flash, ugh) access were significant.

It wasn't just IE though, Netscape had plenty of points to exploit.

Re:“AV is my single biggest impediment to shipping a secure ... by yuhong on Thursday December 01, 2016 @04:48PM (#13083848)
Yea, that is what Vess worked on back in the late 1990s, dating back to the WordBasic days.
Re:“AV is my single biggest impediment to shipping a secure ... by yuhong on Thursday December 01, 2016 @06:02PM (#13084419)
I think tax filing software are a similar story.