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Re:Thoughts on Flash by potatolicious on Thursday April 29, 2010 @01:29PM (#1305229)
> "based on miscreant use"

That's being a bit generous in favor of Adobe - the majority of the Flash development sphere is practically what one would consider "miscreant use".

Here's my impression of the different sorts of Flash use, based on my journeys on the web:

- Videos/Audio: Easily replaced by HTML5, and better too. More readily hardware accelerated, behaves as part of the core browser instead of a hijacking addon (e.g., Ctrl+T while focused on a Flash applet = no new tab), and much better battery life on mobiles.

- Crappy restaurant websites and other crimes against humanity: These should just die, and HTML5 will hopefully inspire better design ethic than this. I don't buy the argument that hovering is no longer common used as a critical navigation feature in Flash - I see it everywhere, especially for crappy restaurant websites. Flash is also impossible to crawl which reduces the usefulness of the web overall. Hell, you can't even LINK to content in a Flash site. IMHO the "full Flash site" (as opposed to Flash being a component of a page) needs to die a fiery, painful death.

- Games: The only place where Adobe has even a remotely legitimate claim that Flash is an empowering product rather than a crutch.

When I think of Flash these keywords come to mind: slow, buggy, crashy, badly designed, usability nightmare, gimmicky, unprofessional, and just plain bad.

Re:Thoughts on Flash by tomlin on Thursday April 29, 2010 @01:47PM (#1305305)
> That's being a bit generous in favor of Adobe - the majority of the Flash development sphere is practically what one would consider "miscreant use".

The vast majority of websites in general are poor. It would be no surprise to see that the majority of Flash sites would also be poor. Both sides have exceptions, though.

> Videos/Audio: Easily replaced by HTML5, and better too. More readily hardware accelerated, behaves as part of the core browser instead of a hijacking addon (e.g., Ctrl+T while focused on a Flash applet = no new tab), and much better battery life on mobiles.

I don't disagree. I am grateful that HTML5 can handle this, but it took a "standards" committee several years to roll this into a questionably viable model. The immediate fanfare for the slow implementation raises my eyebrow a bit. We're all happy about having something we've needed for years. The company that created the fold so we could have sites like YouTube today? The devil.

> - Crappy restaurant websites and other crimes against humanity: These should just die, and HTML5 will hopefully inspire better design ethic than this.

It won't. Cheese is forever. If HTML5 can accomplish cheese, people will create cheese. We're all hopeful, but the human condition comes into play.

Re:Thoughts on Flash by potatolicious on Thursday April 29, 2010 @01:57PM (#1305348)
It's not the cheese I object to - but that the Cheese breaks the internet in fundamental ways.

Example: We just wrapped up Restaurant Week here in Seattle where a bunch of local establishments offered up prix-fixe specials for a couple of weeks. The website for this event was done up all in Flash, and made it impossible to crawl for a search engine, or even to link or bookmark a particular restaurant for later retrieval.

What did we exchange for this cheese and gimmicky design? Everything.

There's no regulating for good taste - you're right, most websites in general are poor. They, however, are still accessible - neon green text on black background with an annoying MIDI track in the background is still information that:

- you can link to

- you can bookmark

- you can copy and paste

- you can search for in-browser (doubly important if the website fails at layout, e.g. most Flash sites!)

- you can search for on Google/Bing

Those are pretty important.

Re:Thoughts on Flash by tomlin on Thursday April 29, 2010 @02:15PM (#1305413)
> What did we exchange for this cheese and gimmicky design? Everything.

I agree that if you don't follow the proper protocol you will end up with an undesirable site. I can't argue that Flash == HTML in terms of accessibility. There are ways within Flash to harness some accessibility but it is up to the developer to implement these. An informational site in Flash is a bad choice. I would never suggest the use of Flash for broad use. A fun site (like http://www.myspace.com/fanvideo) is more appropriate.

> - you can link to

> - you can bookmark

Named-anchors and proper implementation (same as AJAX RIA)

> - you can copy and paste

"Selectable text" is an option in any Flash text field.

> - you can search for in-browser (doubly important if the website fails at layout, e.g. most Flash sites!)

> - you can search for on Google/Bing

Flash exports text within to the container. Google also can search SWF.

> Those are pretty important.

Agree.

Re:Thoughts on Flash by Zev on Thursday April 29, 2010 @02:34PM (#1305472)
"Selectable text" is an option in any Flash text field.

Is copying/pasting it to the OS (or app) pasteboard an option? If so, will it use the same UI as native apps have? Or will it force a funky widget of its own in the middle of an app that otherwise looks like the rest of the OS?

Re:Thoughts on Flash by tomlin on Thursday April 29, 2010 @03:32PM (#1305690)
The options are the same as the OS using the same UI. Identical to right-click menu in browser inputs/address bar. It is using the OS clipboard. CTRL/OPTION+C/V works the same as well.
Re:Thoughts on Flash by Zev on Thursday April 29, 2010 @04:31PM (#1305922)
Are you saying that Adobe reimplemented the UI? Or that they pass it off to the OS to handle? Because if its the former, the iPhone doesn't have a menu dropdown for cut/copy/paste. Or a ctrl/command button, for that matter.

I'm only asking because I've never had copy/paste from flash work well on the desktop.

Re:Thoughts on Flash by elblanco on Thursday April 29, 2010 @03:39PM (#1305719)
And HTML5 canvas changes this how?
Re:Thoughts on Flash by glhaynes on Friday April 30, 2010 @10:25AM (#1308226)
Because <canvas> is used for just the "flashy" part of the site but everything else is still in traditional HTML with all of its advantages. Sure that can be done in Flash too, but, as we've seen, people often end up just doing the vast majority of the site in Flash. There's not the same temptation with <canvas>.
Re:Thoughts on Flash by elblanco on Friday April 30, 2010 @07:37PM (#1309751)
Why not? If <canvas> is being used as a drop-in replacement for Flash, why wouldn't it just be used in exactly the same ways? There's nothing special about canvas that would make it less prone to abuse.
Re:Thoughts on Flash by glhaynes on Saturday May 01, 2010 @12:58PM (#1310776)
Flash includes a ton of controls: buttons, scrollbars, text areas, etcetera. It has its own scripting language and memory environment that is separate from the HTML page and its DOM/JavaScript environment that contains it. There are ways to shuffle data and events between the two, but that means going out of your way to do so.

So if you're going to have a Flash-y data visualization component, say, it's easiest and most natural to have the controls for it (buttons adjusting parameters, display of those parameters, navigational controls) made in Flash too -- just expand the content rectangle of your Flash component out and drop in the controls.

In HTML5, the 'environment' of the <canvas> object is that of the surrounding HTML page. Adding buttons and other controls around the edge of your visualizer is most straightforwardly done by using "native" HTML <button>s and other such elements.

So it would be surprising to see <canvas>-using pages end up being done in a way where the <canvas> is essentially the whole page — it would require more programmer effort — whereas in Flash that's by far the easiest way to do it.

Re:Thoughts on Flash by bastardlee on Thursday April 29, 2010 @02:29PM (#1305451)
Although i agree that there are a lot of issues wrong with Flash, some of the things you mention aren't entirely accurate. For example, you can link directly to interior Flash content with SWFAddress (http://www.asual.com/swfaddress/). Also, there have been greater strides made in crawlers so that Flash content is more easily indexed by crawlers.

I will be the first to admit there are a lot of poorly designed Flash sites, but from an interactive design perspective, Flash still gives you the most freedom to create more innovative ways for user interaction. IMO this isn't something that should be dismissed so quickly.