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Re:Thoughts on Flash by potatolicious on Thursday April 29, 2010 @01:57PM (#1305348)
It's not the cheese I object to - but that the Cheese breaks the internet in fundamental ways.

Example: We just wrapped up Restaurant Week here in Seattle where a bunch of local establishments offered up prix-fixe specials for a couple of weeks. The website for this event was done up all in Flash, and made it impossible to crawl for a search engine, or even to link or bookmark a particular restaurant for later retrieval.

What did we exchange for this cheese and gimmicky design? Everything.

There's no regulating for good taste - you're right, most websites in general are poor. They, however, are still accessible - neon green text on black background with an annoying MIDI track in the background is still information that:

- you can link to

- you can bookmark

- you can copy and paste

- you can search for in-browser (doubly important if the website fails at layout, e.g. most Flash sites!)

- you can search for on Google/Bing

Those are pretty important.

Re:Thoughts on Flash by tomlin on Thursday April 29, 2010 @02:15PM (#1305413)
> What did we exchange for this cheese and gimmicky design? Everything.

I agree that if you don't follow the proper protocol you will end up with an undesirable site. I can't argue that Flash == HTML in terms of accessibility. There are ways within Flash to harness some accessibility but it is up to the developer to implement these. An informational site in Flash is a bad choice. I would never suggest the use of Flash for broad use. A fun site (like http://www.myspace.com/fanvideo) is more appropriate.

> - you can link to

> - you can bookmark

Named-anchors and proper implementation (same as AJAX RIA)

> - you can copy and paste

"Selectable text" is an option in any Flash text field.

> - you can search for in-browser (doubly important if the website fails at layout, e.g. most Flash sites!)

> - you can search for on Google/Bing

Flash exports text within to the container. Google also can search SWF.

> Those are pretty important.

Agree.

Re:Thoughts on Flash by Zev on Thursday April 29, 2010 @02:34PM (#1305472)
"Selectable text" is an option in any Flash text field.

Is copying/pasting it to the OS (or app) pasteboard an option? If so, will it use the same UI as native apps have? Or will it force a funky widget of its own in the middle of an app that otherwise looks like the rest of the OS?

Re:Thoughts on Flash by tomlin on Thursday April 29, 2010 @03:32PM (#1305690)
The options are the same as the OS using the same UI. Identical to right-click menu in browser inputs/address bar. It is using the OS clipboard. CTRL/OPTION+C/V works the same as well.
Re:Thoughts on Flash by Zev on Thursday April 29, 2010 @04:31PM (#1305922)
Are you saying that Adobe reimplemented the UI? Or that they pass it off to the OS to handle? Because if its the former, the iPhone doesn't have a menu dropdown for cut/copy/paste. Or a ctrl/command button, for that matter.

I'm only asking because I've never had copy/paste from flash work well on the desktop.

Re:Thoughts on Flash by elblanco on Thursday April 29, 2010 @03:39PM (#1305719)
And HTML5 canvas changes this how?
Re:Thoughts on Flash by glhaynes on Friday April 30, 2010 @10:25AM (#1308226)
Because <canvas> is used for just the "flashy" part of the site but everything else is still in traditional HTML with all of its advantages. Sure that can be done in Flash too, but, as we've seen, people often end up just doing the vast majority of the site in Flash. There's not the same temptation with <canvas>.
Re:Thoughts on Flash by elblanco on Friday April 30, 2010 @07:37PM (#1309751)
Why not? If <canvas> is being used as a drop-in replacement for Flash, why wouldn't it just be used in exactly the same ways? There's nothing special about canvas that would make it less prone to abuse.
Re:Thoughts on Flash by glhaynes on Saturday May 01, 2010 @12:58PM (#1310776)
Flash includes a ton of controls: buttons, scrollbars, text areas, etcetera. It has its own scripting language and memory environment that is separate from the HTML page and its DOM/JavaScript environment that contains it. There are ways to shuffle data and events between the two, but that means going out of your way to do so.

So if you're going to have a Flash-y data visualization component, say, it's easiest and most natural to have the controls for it (buttons adjusting parameters, display of those parameters, navigational controls) made in Flash too -- just expand the content rectangle of your Flash component out and drop in the controls.

In HTML5, the 'environment' of the <canvas> object is that of the surrounding HTML page. Adding buttons and other controls around the edge of your visualizer is most straightforwardly done by using "native" HTML <button>s and other such elements.

So it would be surprising to see <canvas>-using pages end up being done in a way where the <canvas> is essentially the whole page — it would require more programmer effort — whereas in Flash that's by far the easiest way to do it.