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Re:Debian considers merging /usr by bigbugbag on Tuesday November 22, 2016 @04:01AM (#13012734)
This move has been made a while ago by arch and didn't seem to cause any trouble.

On the other hand, it does not change much compared to the revolution of adopting the gobolinux filesystem that has been proposed more than 10 years ago. [1]

[1]: http://gobolinux.org/index.php?page=at_a_glance http://gobolinux.org/index.php?page=doc/articles/clueless

Re:Debian considers merging /usr by TheSwordsman on Tuesday November 22, 2016 @04:12AM (#13012801)
All of my Arch Linux nodes ate-shit when I did this upgrade years ago. Things didn't like when their shared libraries got moved. I had to manually recover every single one.

It was actually the straw that broke the camel's back for me as an Arch user. This was around the time Arch Linux was going through lots of breaking changes.

Re:Debian considers merging /usr by gnarbarian on Tuesday November 22, 2016 @04:56AM (#13012972)
It's what happens with any rolling release distro given enough time. We thought it would solve the problem of having to upgrade the OS and migrate every few years but it didn't really.

Now we have docker. Probably not solved until we write all our applications as some sort of crazy monad to minimize maintenance pain. I think docker is a meaningful step toward that.

Re:Debian considers merging /usr by skykooler on Tuesday November 22, 2016 @08:05AM (#13013785)
Of course, now you need to deal with docker itself updating constantly, and the client not being able to talk to the server if they're updated more than 3 months apart.
Re:Debian considers merging /usr by SEJeff on Tuesday November 22, 2016 @11:16AM (#13015079)
Or just use rkt and don't worry about it. The CoreOS team takes api stability pretty seriously.
Re:Debian considers merging /usr by toyg on Tuesday November 22, 2016 @06:57AM (#13013440)
> until we write all our applications as some sort of crazy monad

Desktop Linux seems to be finally moving towards self-contained formats like AppImage and Flatpak. They are clearly not oriented towards server apps, but who knows.

Re:Debian considers merging /usr by lisivka on Tuesday November 22, 2016 @09:50AM (#13014464)
OMG. Self contained apps were there starting from Linux 0.1. They are reinvented every second year.
Re:Debian considers merging /usr by toyg on Tuesday November 22, 2016 @10:58AM (#13014904)
Yeah but they never got traction for this or that reason. This time it looks like several big players actually agree on a common way forward. I guess time will tell.
Re:Debian considers merging /usr by c3833174 on Tuesday November 22, 2016 @07:54AM (#13013724)
>It's what happens with any rolling release distro given enough time.

Not really, the KISS nature of arch means that stuff that could be automated isn't because reasons, while systemd gets a special pass.

Re:Debian considers merging /usr by digi_owl on Sunday November 27, 2016 @05:26AM (#13048575)
because systemd is a personal passion of one of the lead arch devs...
Re:Debian considers merging /usr by majewsky on Tuesday November 22, 2016 @06:09AM (#13013249)
Interesting. I had zero trouble with this change on any of my boxes. Did not even have to --force the upgrade.
Re:Debian considers merging /usr by SSLy on Tuesday November 22, 2016 @07:12AM (#13013512)
Well, the instructions on the frontpage were very clear and simple how to process the update.
Re:Debian considers merging /usr by laumars on Tuesday November 22, 2016 @04:58AM (#13012975)
It wasn't that bad. It did require manual intervention to get the install to work (which isn't a great surprise given the nature of the update) but it installed pretty painlessly on all bar one machine. The one exception being a laptop which I put off the update for several weeks and then left myself with a much larger job than it should have been - so really that one was partly my own fault.

The glibc update from around the same time was a much worse update update. I think that one did break every Arch install I had at that time.

Re:Debian considers merging /usr by dizzystar on Tuesday November 22, 2016 @10:13AM (#13014622)
Not on Arch anymore, but I do remember that upgrade. I had no issues at all with it.
Re:Debian considers merging /usr by asymmetric on Tuesday November 22, 2016 @04:10AM (#13012790)
Interesting, I didn't know about GoboLinux, but it reminded me of Nix. Here's a comparison: http://sandervanderburg.blogspot.nl/2011/12/evaluation-and-c...
Re:Debian considers merging /usr by digi_owl on Tuesday November 22, 2016 @04:51AM (#13012946)
Interestingly both started roughly around the same time (though i only started hearing about Nix in the last few years).

Note though that Gobolinux is largely constructed from shell scripts.

Also, since this comparison was made Gobolinux replace /System/Links with /system/Index. The latter is more like the classic FHS, and came about because of various issues during software compiles (iirc).

Oh, one potentially interesting tidbit about Gobolinux history is that it apparently started out as one guy's way to manage compiles stored in his user directory on a university server. Sadly since the move to /System/Index the tool for bootstrapping such an environment, Rootless, has been nonfunctional.

Re:Debian considers merging /usr by Iv on Tuesday November 22, 2016 @04:47AM (#13012927)
I did not know about Gobo either. Why isn't everyone using it yet? Directories as packages, multi-versioning made easy... Use it now!
Re:Debian considers merging /usr by nkuttler on Tuesday November 22, 2016 @05:07AM (#13013009)
The "how can this possibly work" section shows the problem: System libraries are links to app directories. Basically, you end up bundling the same libs over and over again in your applications. Just imagine having several identical copies of gtk, qt, webkit, etc.
Re:Debian considers merging /usr by digi_owl on Tuesday November 22, 2016 @05:32AM (#13013102)
Not quite. As long as multiple programs use the same lib version, you only install it once just as with RPM or DEB.

but if another program needs a older or newer version you can install that version in parallel without it disturbing the rest.

Re:Debian considers merging /usr by nkuttler on Tuesday November 22, 2016 @07:36AM (#13013612)
If you can't distribute individual directories/packages as stand-alone apps this entire exercise seems pointless, it just becomes a fancy filesystem hierarchy.
Re:Debian considers merging /usr by Iv on Wednesday November 23, 2016 @01:56AM (#13020670)
Wait, neither debian nor ubuntu distribute packages as stand alone app. They distribute it without their libs and add a layer of dependency management (I did not look into Gobo's but I guess it is similar though apparently more permissive)

And I don't see either what prevents one to distribute an application as standalone by stuffing all the libs needed in the application directory.

Re:Debian considers merging /usr by nkuttler on Wednesday November 23, 2016 @05:31AM (#13021542)
That's my point, you don't gain anything except a different directory structure. And if you stuff everything into one directory, size.
Re:Debian considers merging /usr by digi_owl on Tuesday November 22, 2016 @09:29AM (#13014308)
Ah ok, now i get it. You are stuck thinking devops and containers...
Re:Debian considers merging /usr by digi_owl on Tuesday November 22, 2016 @04:55AM (#13012970)
Dunno. Maybe because it is largely made out of shell scripts and symlinks, and not laden with buzzwords?
Re:Debian considers merging /usr by Filligree on Tuesday November 22, 2016 @09:37AM (#13014363)
Maybe because it's not ambitious enough?

Nix (and NixOS) does most of the same things, and then some, achieving more of the potential benefits. If you're going to break compatibility anyway, you might as well do it in a big way.

A 2x improvement isn't enough to be worth the cost. 10x might be.

Re:Debian considers merging /usr by Iv on Wednesday November 23, 2016 @01:57AM (#13020674)
They don't break the compatibility. The old hierarchy is still there.
Re:Debian considers merging /usr by ufo on Tuesday November 22, 2016 @10:58AM (#13014907)
I think one of the problems is that is a source-based distribution, which is a pretty niche thing nowadays.
Re:Debian considers merging /usr by Iv on Wednesday November 23, 2016 @01:58AM (#13020679)
I am more wondering about the filesystem organization than the distribution itself.
Re:Debian considers merging /usr by corv on Tuesday November 22, 2016 @06:02AM (#13013228)
Using the filesystem as a package database just makes too much sense.
Re:Debian considers merging /usr by digi_owl on Tuesday November 22, 2016 @06:46AM (#13013382)
Yep, lets wrap it in multiple layers of daemons and kernel special sauce.
Re:Debian considers merging /usr by vacri on Tuesday November 22, 2016 @05:47AM (#13013171)
Ironic that a website proposing a cleaned-up version of the linux filesystem has 'garbage' in the URL

    index.php?page=at_a_glance
    index.php?page=doc/articles/clueless
Re:Debian considers merging /usr by laumars on Tuesday November 22, 2016 @05:54AM (#13013195)
I bet some of the advocates have messy desks too but that doesn't make it any more ironic and your URL point.
Re:Debian considers merging /usr by vacri on Tuesday November 22, 2016 @06:13AM (#13013259)
My URL point a whole coca-cola bottle?