News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Why Catholics Built Astronomical Features into Churches by drzaiusapelord on Thursday November 17, 2016 @01:48PM (#12980186)
Except the standard narrative is fairly honest, if reductionist. Of course the details are far more interesting, but I find there's this new historic revisionism that's trying to whitewash Catholic history and its fairly repugnant. Look at your comment. Putting in qualifiers like Galileo was a jerk and those selfless Vatican officials were just a little "thin-skinned" is making excuses to promote a pro-Church narrative and to blame Galileo. You are aware we are discussing the Inquisition here which, if we include the entire church all through Europe, led to the deaths of over 125,000 people. This wasn't some protocol slight taken overly-wrongly, but an active system of censorship, oppression, imprisonment, and mass murder Galileo was on the receiving end of.

I hate when the "Oh, there's more to this story" attitude is used to defend the wrong narrative. I see it all the time on the internet. Edison is on par with Hitler for some reason, Lincoln is a war mongering criminal for going against the peace loving Confederate states, etc. The larger narrative is dismissed for smaller details that are presented in a way to distract or contradict the larger narrative. Its purposely viewing the trees and ignoring the forest. Sadly, its a popular way for disingenuous people to promote their views.

Re:Why Catholics Built Astronomical Features into Churches by jcranmer on Thursday November 17, 2016 @04:02PM (#12981531)
There's a fallacy in our history textbooks that Copernican astronomy was so obviously superior to Ptolemaic astronomy. The truth is, it wasn't.

The Copernican model held that planets moved in circular orbits at uniform angular velocity--which is sufficiently wrong that it required only a few less epicycles than Ptolemaic astronomy. You can't fall back on "it's more accurate" since the results weren't really any more accurate. Yet, for this inaccurate results, a Copernican would have to explain:

* The lack of stellar parallax

* How the Earth can rotate around the sun

* Why we don't fall off the planet

* Why the rotation of the planet doesn't throw us off the planet

The Copernicans had no good answers for these questions--the latter were eventually explained by Newton's Law of Gravitation which proved to cement the transition away from geocentrism (the accuracy of Kepler's elliptical orbit also provided another major impetus for the transition, since it didn't need any epicycles. Incidentally, Galileo saw Kepler as a Copernican heretic and viewed his model of planetary orbits as utter rubbish).

Stellar parallax was resolved when we actually found it--in the 1700s. The Copernican attempts to explain it were weak and sometimes involved actual heresy on the nature of God, declared as such by the Catholic church 100s of years prior. Tycho Brahe gave a fairly comprehensive, scientific denunciation of Copernican astronomy based on his stellar observations.

Incidentally, your number for the deaths caused by the Catholic Church during the Inquisition is off by over an order of magnitude. The Spanish Inquisition appears to have executed only around 2000 people, and that for all of the major executions put together doesn't seem more than around 10,000 people. In general, the Inquisition's goal was mainly getting heretics to convert, not executing them: only around 5% of guilty sentences produced executions in the first place.

Re:Why Catholics Built Astronomical Features into Churches by antognini on Thursday November 17, 2016 @04:24PM (#12981772)
That's a good summary. I would only add that Brahe himself developed a sort of "compromise" model between the Ptolemaic and Copernican systems in which the planets (aside from the Earth and the Moon) all revolved around the Sun, which then revolved around the Earth. The Tychonic system explained the lack of observed parallax, but kept the computational simplifications of the Copernican system. This was the model preferred by most of the learned men in the Church at the time.
Re:Why Catholics Built Astronomical Features into Churches by cygx on Thursday November 17, 2016 @08:20PM (#12983510)
There's a fallacy in our history textbooks that Copernican astronomy was so obviously superior to Ptolemaic astronomy. The truth is, it wasn't.

Not on astronomical grounds, but on philosophical ones. His observations (mountains on the moon, phases of Venus, sun spots, moons of Jupiter) led Galileo to the conviction that the celestial bodies were made from the same materials as terrestial ones. Remember, aether wasn't just the stuff that filled the space between the celestial bodies, it's also what those bodies were supposedly made of, allowing them the rapid daily motion you have to posit if earth is not supposed to rotate. One of the arguments formerly brought forth against terrestial motion gets thereby neatly turned on its head.

The problem was that while personally I find this line of reasoning rather convincing, it's not a smoking gun, which led Galileo on his quest for more direct observational evidence, eg his (incorrect) theory of the tides.

Re:Why Catholics Built Astronomical Features into Churches by TeMPOraL on Thursday November 17, 2016 @02:37PM (#12980690)
Except the thing is, Galileo's model was not supported by science. They had neither a proper theoretical model for deriving it (Newton's and Kepler's work on gravity and celestial movement, which came after Galileo), nor did the Galileo's model agree with available observational data. From the point of view of scientists of that age, his model was more like a crackpot theory. Which turned out ok, but only much later.

So if anything, Galileo's story is about the Church being on the side of science, not against it.

Re:Why Catholics Built Astronomical Features into Churches by drzaiusapelord on Thursday November 17, 2016 @04:23PM (#12981767)
The inquisition wasn't a scientific test. Galileo was convicted of countering scripture. The level of error in his theory is besides the point and a good example of the kind of nitpicking to change narratives I discussed above.

I think the idea that if his heliocentric model was more accurate it would have meant the Church instantly accepting him is extremely faulty. He was convicted of going against geocentrism in the bible, not being a bad scientist. The idea that the Catholic system was a strict meritocracy open to change is ridiculous. It defended its status quo and its scripture unfairly using absurdly powerful institutions like the Inquisition, in which it is more or less impossible to get a 'fair' trial, even by the low standards of theocratic justice.

Re:Why Catholics Built Astronomical Features into Churches by TeMPOraL on Thursday November 17, 2016 @04:28PM (#12981825)
The point is, he wasn't convicted for his theory at all - he was convicted for being an asshole to the pope, and the talk about going against the scripture was just an excuse to make the sentence look more legitimate.

Being an asshole to a very powerful politician (especially one that knows you personally) generally gets you into trouble, no matter the day and age.

Re:Why Catholics Built Astronomical Features into Churches by cygx on Thursday November 17, 2016 @08:42PM (#12983619)
Perhaps you might be interested what Ernest R. Hull, author of Galileo and his condemnation [1] had to say about that?

> Thirdly, to Catholic Apologists :

> (1) Avoid the mistake of minimizing the official action of the Church authorities, or of understating the ground of their condemnation. The official documents plainly embody the view that the Copernican theory was not only "false" but also "heretical" because "altogether contrary to Scripture"; and Galileo was condemned as "grievously suspected of heresy," which heresy is defined as holding that the earth moved and the sun stood still." It is precisely in this dogmatical pronounce ment on the heretical character of the new astronomy that their blunder consisted.

> (2) Do not try to cloak this blunder by arguing that Galileo brought all the trouble on himself by meddling in theology, or by his aggressiveness of manner. The clash with theology was inevitable, and must be forced upon him ; and his defence on this point was entirely sound and unexceptionable. His aggressiveness explains the amount of human passion which was aroused against him, but does not extenuate the act of condemning officially as heresy a doctrine which we all now know to be totally free from heresy. That Galileo was imprudent in forcing an official pronouncement does not diminish the error which the official pronouncement contains.

> (3) Avoid also laving too much stress on the fact that Galileo was contumacious to Church authority. His contumacy might justify a disciplinary punish ment ; but once more, it does not cloak the blunder of charging his doctrines with heresy.

> (4) There is no reason for trying to exonerate the Popes from all share in the action of the Congrega tions. Although their names do not appear in any official capacity, there is no doubt that they were fully conversant with what was being done ; that they partly directed the proceedings ; that they approved and sanctioned the decrees issued and the sentences pronounced. Our defence on this point lies simply in the fact that the Pope's approval of the acts of a Congregation does not raise them to ex cathedra definitions.

[1] https://archive.org/details/galileoandhiscon00hulluoft

Re:Why Catholics Built Astronomical Features into Churches by dotancohen on Thursday November 17, 2016 @02:50PM (#12980811)
I came to post this. There is another important detail: Galileo did not contradict scripture (religion), rather he contradicted Aristotle (science). The Catholic church was actually rather interested in science at the time, and were far from the anti-intellectuals that the common narrative makes them seem.
Re:Why Catholics Built Astronomical Features into Churches by toyg on Thursday November 17, 2016 @03:01PM (#12980900)
Aristotle is not just "science" - it's long been at the center of Christian theology, carrying the main argument that could reconcile Christian faith with the empirical world. Until very recently (and certainly by Galileo's times), contradicting Aristotle meant doing away with the entire building of Christian theology.
Re:Why Catholics Built Astronomical Features into Churches by michaelsbradley on Thursday November 17, 2016 @03:54PM (#12981450)
Well, in Western Christianity the thought of Aristotle has been important since about A.D. 1,100. Not so much in Eastern Christianity, which has favored the thought of Plato for nearly 2,000 years.
Re:Why Catholics Built Astronomical Features into Churches by r00fus on Thursday November 17, 2016 @07:05PM (#12983083)
Galileo's push for heliocentrism were in direct opposition to doctrine (Ptolemaic/geocentrism) and most interpretations of scripture.

If the Catholic Church didn't take that as a threat to their legitimacy I'd be surprised.

Similar shit happens today where people who question the efficacy of e.g. capitalism are effectively silenced (media control and subtlety allows voices to be silenced without imprisoning or killing people these days)

Re:Why Catholics Built Astronomical Features into Churches by arjie on Thursday November 17, 2016 @02:54PM (#12980846)
His judgment explicitly states that he was convicted of contradicting scripture.
Re:Why Catholics Built Astronomical Features into Churches by clock_tower on Thursday November 17, 2016 @05:33PM (#12982375)
Stellar parallax was the key to it; Brahe, in particular, insisted that if there was no stellar parallax, there was no reason to prefer Galileo's system over his. If memory serves, stellar parallax was only demonstrated in the 1800s -- whereupon the Church issued a statement that Galileo's model was right after all.
Re:Why Catholics Built Astronomical Features into Churches by neffy on Thursday November 17, 2016 @03:56PM (#12981463)
This is true. The interesting thing about the epicylical theories (there was more than one possible set), is that they passed the usual scientific tests - were based on observations, could be used for prediction in particular. They just happened to be completely incorrect. Galileo's contribution was building one of the first telescopes and using it to identify moons circling around Jupiter.

His was the find the exception that contradicts the rule kind of science/theorem proving.

Re:Why Catholics Built Astronomical Features into Churches by TeMPOraL on Thursday November 17, 2016 @04:06PM (#12981565)
> epicylical theories (...) happened to be completely incorrect.

They weren't completely incorrect. There are two aspects you want to look at when evaluating those models. The first is their predictive power, which was the best for the times, and better than the stuff Galileo proposed[0]. Which made Galileo's model incorrect in this regard. The second aspect is explaining the model in terms of more basic laws - this they did not do at all, and nor did Galileo's model. The required theories that allowed to derive heliocentric model from first(er) principles were only formulated later by Newton, which only then invalidated the geocentric models.

--

[0] - from mathematical point of view, all models that give the same results are equally correct; the only thing one cares about is which one is simpler / more useful for you.

Re:Why Catholics Built Astronomical Features into Churches by neffy on Thursday November 17, 2016 @08:07PM (#12983430)
Had 16th century Astronomers had the power to re-arrange the orbits of the planets according to their theories, the results would certainly not have been the same, so even from that particularly mathematical point of view, they were still incorrect.

This isn't mere pedantry, a good example of epicylic type theories being used to modify the system under study, can be found today in modern economics.

Re:Why Catholics Built Astronomical Features into Churches by marcosdumay on Thursday November 17, 2016 @02:58PM (#12980869)
Wasn't Galileo that discovered the phases of Venus?

Those prove heliocentrism. The fact that Galileo's model had worse predictions for the planets positions was much weaker than that observation.

Re:Why Catholics Built Astronomical Features into Churches by qb45 on Thursday November 17, 2016 @03:24PM (#12981137)
Tycho Brahe suggested a geocentric system which explained phases of Venus before they were even discovered.

AFAIK the first serious "proof" (as far as we can talk about proving that the Sun is the center of everything) was the observation of stellar parallax some century later. In Galileo's time parallax was too small to detect and it was an open question whether stars are too far to observe it (postulated by Copernicus) or Earth is actually immobile (postulated by Tycho Brahe et al).

Re:Why Catholics Built Astronomical Features into Churches by bonzini on Thursday November 17, 2016 @02:01PM (#12980319)
Not really, there were actual problems with the Copernican system, mostly because it still required epicyclics. The favored system at the time was the Tychonic system, and what actually allowed heliocentrism to prevail was Kepler's introduction of elliptical orbits.

Some of Galileo's points, for example his explanation of tides in term of heliocentrism, were downright wrong---which is fine, but trying to mix theology and astronomy, which he did, and putting the pope's theory in the mouth of a character called "Simple" were not the best political moves.

Re:Why Catholics Built Astronomical Features into Churches by cygx on Thursday November 17, 2016 @08:45PM (#12983634)
The audacity of a layperson to quote Augustine!