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Re:Baidu’s self-driving cars begin public test in Wuzhen, China by seanmcdirmid on Thursday November 17, 2016 @12:01PM (#12979158)
Self driving cars are much more valuable to China than the US. China, for all its development, lacks road and parking infrastructure and places to put them even if it was willing to build them. So cities like Beijing are incredibly congested. Likewise, the driving culture in many Chinese cities (all slightly different) is often very bad, it isn't uncommon to see someone back up on a free way because they missed their exit in Beijing....The US, for the most part, doesn't have these problems (lots of roads, parking, and fairly well behaved drivers)...self driving cars are seen as more of a convenience than a necessity.

Self driving cars potentially solve all that by optimizing limited infrastructure and standardizing driving behavior. It has the potential to make cities that are bursting at the seams (like Beijing) much more livable and viable. Couple that with an authoritarian government that can dictate rules much more easily, I predict that self driving cars will be a thing in China much faster than in the west (even if much of the tech still comes from the west).

Re:Baidu’s self-driving cars begin public test in Wuzhen, China by muddyrivers on Thursday November 17, 2016 @01:24PM (#12979951)
<i> The US, for the most part, doesn't have these problems (lots of roads, parking, and fairly well behaved drivers)...self driving cars are seen as more of a convenience than a necessity. </i>

The same problems exist in metropolitan areas in US as well, like Bay Area, NYC, Chicago, etc. although to a less degree than those in China. In Bay Area, people are so exhausted by long-commute driving. Check how jammed the traffic is in 101, 880, 580, 237, etc. Bart and CalTrain's coverages are pretty limited. With self driving cars, I bet plenty of people will quit driving by themselves for the commute. Imagine one can read, relax, read a book, or even work in the car, instead of sitting behind the wheel for 2 hours a day.

Re:Baidu’s self-driving cars begin public test in Wuzhen, China by istorical on Thursday November 17, 2016 @02:09PM (#12980398)
You don't see 11 day, 75 mile long traffic jams in the US though.

http://abcnews.go.com/International/chinas-traffic-jam-lasts...

Re:Baidu’s self-driving cars begin public test in Wuzhen, China by seanmcdirmid on Thursday November 17, 2016 @02:19PM (#12980515)
To be fair, that was mostly inter city truck drivers who didn't want to pay tolls while they were reconstructing the only non toll alternative.
Re:Baidu’s self-driving cars begin public test in Wuzhen, China by melling on Thursday November 17, 2016 @02:42PM (#12980725)
Your point is that because we don't have 11 day traffic jams, means we should be content? We're being unreasonable to want to hours of our lives every week?
Re:Baidu’s self-driving cars begin public test in Wuzhen, China by seanmcdirmid on Thursday November 17, 2016 @01:56PM (#12980263)
Well, in china I just take a taxi. It wasn't a problem for me. But even though I had the convenience, capacity is an issue. I just moved to LA from Beijing, and I'm so impressed how nice the traffic is and how convenient parking is.
Re:Baidu’s self-driving cars begin public test in Wuzhen, China by rahimnathwani on Thursday November 17, 2016 @03:06PM (#12980961)
I'd love it if all cars in China were self-driving. The road situation causes me stress whether I'm a pedestrian, cyclist or a car passenger (I don't drive here in Beijing). A few weeks ago, it took me over 3 hours to cover 16km in Beijing. It would have been faster to walk. The visible causes were:

- Drivers in Beijing drive slowly when there's heavy rain

- The sheer number of cars

- Drivers in Beijing advance into traffic-light controlled intersections even when the path ahead of them is blocked, causing a junction to get blocked up, even when all lanes leading away from it

I'm not sure what the other causes were (I heard that road space had just been reduced by the addition of a bus lane on the third ring road). I'm not sure what made that day much much worse than others (and it wasn't just me - I had a friend report a similar speed coming from a different part of the city).

I really wish Beijing had yellow boxes, and strong enforcement of not-stopping-in-junctions, like in London: https://tfl.gov.uk/modes/driving/red-routes/rules-of-red-rou....

I wish even more that the problem of humans needing to drive were solved.

But I'm not sure "Self driving cars are much more valuable to China than the US" is true. Each has a similar number of cars overall. China might skew more towards urban. But the cost for a full-time driver in China is 15%-25% of what it would be in the US, so the amount of GDP replaced by self-driving cars would be higher in the US, no?

Moreover, the lack of parking won't be solved by self-driving cars alone. People who can afford their own car will need to be persuaded to use car-sharing services instead. Without this, people will still want their cars to be near where they sleep, meaning that unused cars will still be jamming up the city whilst unused.

Re:Baidu’s self-driving cars begin public test in Wuzhen, China by Animats on Thursday November 17, 2016 @03:20PM (#12981101)
- Drivers in Beijing advance into traffic-light controlled intersections even when the path ahead of them is blocked, causing a junction to get blocked up, even when all lanes leading away from it

This is the literal "gridlock" problem, which can lock up a road system. The US had that problem in some cities until New York City introduced "Don't Block the Box" around 1980. It took a PR campaign, and, some ticketing, and painting a big box with diagonal lines across some intersections, but eventually drivers got the idea to not enter the intersection until they had a way out of it. San Francisco is starting to have gridlock again, and a new "Don't Block the Box" campaign was started in 2014.

Re:Baidu’s self-driving cars begin public test in Wuzhen, China by cesarbs on Thursday November 17, 2016 @05:56PM (#12982546)
And yet every now and then I'll be stopped waiting for a blocked intersection to clear before advancing, and the asshole behind me will start honking.

I live in the Seattle area though, not NYC.

Re:Baidu’s self-driving cars begin public test in Wuzhen, China by spydum on Thursday November 17, 2016 @04:06PM (#12981566)
interesting. I wonder how automated traffic cameras/redlight ticket systems would impact that? I suspect most people "squeeze" into the intersection to avoid the next cycle, because they dont see a traffic cop around. if all intersections are photo enforced, you'd think that problem would go away (or at least, citations would go up enough to fund some better traffic control/flow solutions)
Re:Baidu’s self-driving cars begin public test in Wuzhen, China by Animats on Thursday November 17, 2016 @04:40PM (#12981946)
It's more a training/PR problem than an enforcement problem. Painting intersections prone to gridlock with a diagonally hashed box helps more than ticketing. Here's the Ministry of the Interior of Quatar trying to get through to drivers on Twitter.[1]

"In this business there are very few problems that can't be solved with some yellow paint and a little bit of common sense." - Henry Barnes, NYC traffic commissioner.

[1] https://twitter.com/moi_qataren/status/643829644253261824

Re:Baidu’s self-driving cars begin public test in Wuzhen, China by seanmcdirmid on Thursday November 17, 2016 @05:21PM (#12982280)
China (well, Beijing) has tons of photo enforced intersections, but the government itself doesn't see "blocking intersection" as wrong so they never ticket for that.

Also, I've never seen a traffic cop actually pull someone over or do enforcement at all (maybe some DUI checkpoints, that's it!). If it wasn't for the cameras, no laws would ever get enforced. They only enforce parking laws a couple of times a year, so many two lane roads have become one lane as citizens take advantage of a lack of parking enforcement and a lack of cheap parking.

Re:Baidu’s self-driving cars begin public test in Wuzhen, China by seanmcdirmid on Thursday November 17, 2016 @03:10PM (#12981007)
China lacks road infrastructure in dense cities, and lacks the room to build what it actually needs. By moving to self driving cars from say taxis, road usage can be increased dramatically (closer following distances, faster speeds, cooperative traffic control). It isn't the cost of the driver that is the issue here, it isn't the same benefit as we are expecting for the USA.

People in china are already ok with Uber, didi, and of course taxis. The private car was more about prestige and convenience (availability), not sure what to do about the former, but the latter is fixable easily enough.

Re:Baidu’s self-driving cars begin public test in Wuzhen, China by kpil on Thursday November 17, 2016 @03:33PM (#12981220)
In Europe, during the 18th and 19th century, the kings and emperors decided that they wanted grand esplanades and straight roads so they could have nice parades, preferably between some nice castles or parks. So they just demolished everything that was in the way. But hey! Marching in cool hats!

I am not sure about U.S, but my guess is that the cities started to grow a little bit later, the people probably looked at the European kings cool-looking roads, and probably decided that they could do even better and just went for an even cooler looking grid instead just some avenues scattered here and there!

Re:Baidu’s self-driving cars begin public test in Wuzhen, China by finid on Thursday November 17, 2016 @12:12PM (#12979265)
it isn't uncommon to see someone back up on a free way because they missed their exit in Beijing....The US, for the most part, doesn't have these problems

I'm guessing that you haven't driven anywhere near New York City or Boston. I've seen my fair share of drivers backing up or driving on the part of the road they're not supposed to just because they missed their exit. Someone said I've done that myself, but I'll need to see proof.

Re:Baidu’s self-driving cars begin public test in Wuzhen, China by seanmcdirmid on Thursday November 17, 2016 @12:18PM (#12979331)
Sure it "happens", but do you see it on almost all of your commutes? When someone does something dumb ass in the states, everyone is shocked and surprised, in Beijing it is just normal and should be expected (as a benefit, everyone is driving like everyone else is crazy).

(And I wasn't driving, rather sitting in the taxi, but I digress)

Re:Baidu’s self-driving cars begin public test in Wuzhen, China by cesarbs on Thursday November 17, 2016 @05:53PM (#12982525)
I live in the Seattle area and I see people doing "dumb ass" things on the road every single day.
Re:Baidu’s self-driving cars begin public test in Wuzhen, China by seanmcdirmid on Thursday November 17, 2016 @06:31PM (#12982827)
I'm from Seattle originally. Every time I visited Seattle (well Bellevue/Redmond) for work, it wasn't that bad. People are pretty mellow, well, I guess you would have to go to Beijing to understand that there are different levels of dumb assery.
Re:Baidu’s self-driving cars begin public test in Wuzhen, China by cesarbs on Friday November 18, 2016 @12:54AM (#12984667)
I'm originally from Brazil, so I've seen my fair share of traffic awfulness :) What I see in Bellevue is mild in comparison, but just as an example, today someone cut an entire lane in front of me to enter their garage.

An almost weekly occurrence is seeing people stick half their car onto the street when leaving a parking garage I drive by often, and only then stopping to watch for incoming traffic. I've parked in that garage before and I know there's plenty of visibility from the exit; it's like people don't realize there's a whole chunk of metal before the driver's seat.

Re:Baidu’s self-driving cars begin public test in Wuzhen, China by seanmcdirmid on Friday November 18, 2016 @09:40PM (#12991736)
> An almost weekly occurrence is seeing people stick half their car onto the street when leaving a parking garage I drive by often, and only then stopping to watch for incoming traffic. I've parked in that garage before and I know there's plenty of visibility from the exit; it's like people don't realize there's a whole chunk of metal before the driver's seat.

This would never happen in China! Yielding? Ha! Instead the car would just plow out of the parking garage irrespective of any cars or people on the road that weren't right in front of them! Same goes for right turns and anywhere else yield might be required...the concept just doesn't exist in China's driving culture.

Re:Baidu’s self-driving cars begin public test in Wuzhen, China by ryuker16 on Friday November 18, 2016 @12:06PM (#12988191)
Here's how bad China is.... I rode with a guy a couple of miles into incoming traffic just to impress me.... on a motorcycle.

Remember those Scifi chase scenes in movies like fifth element.... Felt like that.

Re:Baidu’s self-driving cars begin public test in Wuzhen, China by stevendaniels on Thursday November 17, 2016 @12:42PM (#12979584)
Bad driving behavior exists everywhere, but in China it's much more common than in the US. Left turns from the extreme right lane (and vice versa), is another common thing you'll see. In my experience, the drivers in Beijing are better behaved than those in Qingdao. Lane changes without signals (while you're in the lane) are also really common.
Re:Baidu’s self-driving cars begin public test in Wuzhen, China by finid on Thursday November 17, 2016 @02:55PM (#12980851)
Left turns from the extreme right lane (and vice versa)

New Yorkers in Manhattan know that dashing from extreme right to extreme left is the norm for yellow cab drivers.

Re:Baidu’s self-driving cars begin public test in Wuzhen, China by duaneb on Thursday November 17, 2016 @08:24PM (#12983544)
If the authoritarian nature of the government allows better enforcement, why are they so terrible at enforcing existing rules?
Re:Baidu’s self-driving cars begin public test in Wuzhen, China by seanmcdirmid on Friday November 18, 2016 @12:30AM (#12984596)
They focus authoritarianism on preservation and enrichment of the ruling class, everything else has less priority.