News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Fewer than 3% of cars sold in the U.S. have manual transm... by edoloughlin on Thursday November 17, 2016 @04:02AM (#12975697)
However, it's more convoluted to use. You have to engage the clutch, put the shifter in neutral, and release the clutch again

This is how you should drive if you know you're going to be stopped for more than a few seconds. 'Convoluted' doesn't come into it - it's the default.

Re:Fewer than 3% of cars sold in the U.S. have manual transm... by Reason077 on Thursday November 17, 2016 @04:43AM (#12975940)
I've driven manuals most of my life. Before stop/start came along, I was in the habit of just holding the clutch pedal down while stopped at intersections or in traffic. Anecdotally, I think most drivers do the same.

Now, when driving stop/start equipped vehicles, I always try to use it. But in a manual, it does takes more thinking and effort and I wonder how many casual drivers actually bother.

The thing is, most of the time you don't really know how long you're going to be stopped for. Will that light take 3 seconds or 30? A manual makes you decide whether to stop the engine, but an automatic just does it every time without having to think about it or perform extra steps. (although, you can override it if you know it's going to be a short stop by just pressing the brake lightly.)

Re:Fewer than 3% of cars sold in the U.S. have manual transm... by djsumdog on Thursday November 17, 2016 @05:01AM (#12976037)
I drove a WRX for five years and the clutch was kinda heavy. Not terrible, but enough that I'd put the car I'm neutral at a red light of I was there for more than five seconds.

I'm glad start stop is supported on manuals this way. It makes sense. I thought the stop start systems didn't really save much fuel, but I've read some real world tests that clock in at 8~10% savings. All that idle time does really add up.

Re:Fewer than 3% of cars sold in the U.S. have manual transm... by blub on Thursday November 17, 2016 @05:51AM (#12976263)
I consider holding the clutch down really unusual. Never did myself except when I was pretty sure that start/stop would trigger unnecessarily.

Now I just don't care about that, since it was too annoying at stop lights, which has led to incidents of auto-stop and immediate start and even a half auto-stop. Didn't notice and bad effects on the car.

Re:Fewer than 3% of cars sold in the U.S. have manual transm... by mnw21cam on Thursday November 17, 2016 @05:25AM (#12976136)
> I was in the habit of just holding the clutch pedal down while stopped at intersections or in traffic.

If you take a driving test in the UK and do this, that would be a minor fault. You can only have a few minor faults before you fail the test. The rationale is that you need to be in full control of the car at all times, and when you set off you mustn't drift backwards at all. The easiest way to do this without needing three legs is to use the handbrake. Unless you have a diesel engine that has enough torque without any pressure on the accelerator pedal to pull away.

Re:Fewer than 3% of cars sold in the U.S. have manual transm... by JetSetWilly on Thursday November 17, 2016 @06:01AM (#12976314)
There's lots of minor faults that don't reflect how people actually drive.

For example if you are turning right and waiting for oncoming traffic to clear, then someone pauses and flashes their lights to let you turn, if you then turn that would be a minor fault in Driving Test conditions - where you are supposed to ignore the driver inviting you to turn and sit like a diddy.

Also you are allowed 15 minor faults before failure, which is quite a lot really.

Re:Fewer than 3% of cars sold in the U.S. have manual transm... by Reason077 on Thursday November 17, 2016 @06:33AM (#12976467)
Huh? Whether or not you put the shifter in neutral has no effect on handbrake (hill) starts. You can still (more quickly, in fact) perform a hill start without also having to put the car back in gear.

And now days, newwer cars have the "hill hold" feature which automatically prevents you rolling backwards anyway.

Re:Fewer than 3% of cars sold in the U.S. have manual transm... by Annatar on Thursday November 17, 2016 @08:43AM (#12977307)
Before stop/start came along, I was in the habit of just holding the clutch pedal down while stopped at intersections or in traffic. Anecdotally, I think most drivers do the same.

I usually keep my foot to the side, as I was explicitly taught in driving school by a professional instructor to do. And if the master cylinder ever starts to malfunction, since the plate spacing is really tight, keeping the clutch pedal depressed while stopped could prematurely burn up the clutch and the torque plate.

Re:Fewer than 3% of cars sold in the U.S. have manual transm... by JoeAltmaier on Thursday November 17, 2016 @08:45AM (#12977327)
Its called 'riding the clutch'. But all you have to do to avoid the wear is keep it fully depressed. End of moralizing.
Re:Fewer than 3% of cars sold in the U.S. have manual transm... by Shorel on Thursday November 17, 2016 @12:32PM (#12979468)
I don't hold the clutch for too long because that will increase the effort from my left foot, and I don't like how it feels after a week of driving that way.

So, it may require more thinking, but I can rest my feet while the light is red and it actually feels good.

Re:Fewer than 3% of cars sold in the U.S. have manual transm... by vetinari on Thursday November 17, 2016 @05:55AM (#12976288)
By holding down the clutch pedal, you are literally destroying the clutch. When I was in the driving school, I was taught to never do this. If you are stopping, even for just few seconds, put in the neutral. It becomes automatic movement in a short time.

Few years ago, I had colleagues who came from a certain foreign country and were not used to manual transmission. They got a company car with manual transmission. The clutch was burned in one month.

Re:Fewer than 3% of cars sold in the U.S. have manual transm... by JetSetWilly on Thursday November 17, 2016 @06:07AM (#12976349)
I don't think having the clutch down destroys the clutch, how would it do that? It is having the clutch partially engaged for a very long time that would destroy the clutch.

A clutch is destroyed by friction - slippage between the two plates that comprise it. This is a useful characteristic when pausing on a hill for a few seconds but I suppose there must be some people that keep the clutch partially engaged for a very long time.

But if you are sitting at a junction with the clutch entirely depressed for a long time the plates are disengaged and no damage is done. That's a bad habit for other reasons, such as if you get rear ended your car is still in gear and could then cause a further accident.

Re:Fewer than 3% of cars sold in the U.S. have manual transm... by Reason077 on Thursday November 17, 2016 @06:23AM (#12976423)
That's right. Driving with the clutch partially engaged will wear it out. But having it fully engaged while the vehicle is stopped won't do any harm.
Re:Fewer than 3% of cars sold in the U.S. have manual transm... by jpindar on Thursday November 17, 2016 @07:43AM (#12976917)
It will wear out the throwout bearing.
Re:Fewer than 3% of cars sold in the U.S. have manual transm... by jessaustin on Thursday November 17, 2016 @08:37AM (#12977266)
Having driven manual pickup trucks for hundreds of thousands of miles, I'm sure this will happen eventually, but it hasn't yet...
Re:Fewer than 3% of cars sold in the U.S. have manual transm... by jpindar on Thursday November 17, 2016 @06:45PM (#12982938)
But do you hold the clutch in when stopped?

I generally don't. I too have driven several manual pickups, and only once had a squeaky throwout bearing. But I bought that one used so who knows what it had gone through before me.

Re:Fewer than 3% of cars sold in the U.S. have manual transm... by jessaustin on Thursday November 17, 2016 @08:56PM (#12983688)
I've never heard of this rule, and I suspect it's more valid for tiny European cars than for pickups. If I want to take off quickly, e.g. third in line at a short left turn, I keep the pedal depressed. If I'm tired, I'll shift out of gear. If neither of those conditions holds, I might shift or I might stay on the clutch.
Re:Fewer than 3% of cars sold in the U.S. have manual transm... by Unklejoe on Thursday November 17, 2016 @01:34PM (#12980059)
And crankshaft thrust bearings, which could ultimately lead to crank walk. It's more of an issue on high performance AWD cars which require extremely strong clutches. All of that clamping force (probably thousands of pounds) is essentially pushing the crankshaft "into" the engine.

Some engines are more susceptible to this than others.

Re:Fewer than 3% of cars sold in the U.S. have manual transm... by flyinghamster on Thursday November 17, 2016 @07:14AM (#12976733)
Holding down the clutch pedal when stopped won't harm the clutch, but it may put excess wear on the throwout bearing that allows it to slide back and forth.
Re:Fewer than 3% of cars sold in the U.S. have manual transm... by dogma1138 on Thursday November 17, 2016 @04:18AM (#12975796)
I want to see the people who cycle the clutch twice at a red signal.
Re:Fewer than 3% of cars sold in the U.S. have manual transm... by Ntrails on Thursday November 17, 2016 @04:27AM (#12975844)
When stopped you have two options in a car, sitting with your foot on the clutch (which is flat out bad) and putting the car in neutral.

Putting the car in neutral is basically one meaningful action - changing gear, yes you have to depress the clutch move the gearstick to neutral and then let the clutch go - but to describe that as "cycle the clutch twice" is madness. Am I missing something?

Re:Fewer than 3% of cars sold in the U.S. have manual transm... by Dylan16807 on Thursday November 17, 2016 @04:51PM (#12982038)
You have to take it back out of neutral, making two cycles of the clutch.

No madness involved.

Re:Fewer than 3% of cars sold in the U.S. have manual transm... by mnw21cam on Thursday November 17, 2016 @05:26AM (#12976144)
Most people in the UK? At least, if they want to pass their driving test.
Re:Fewer than 3% of cars sold in the U.S. have manual transm... by apetrovic on Thursday November 17, 2016 @06:11AM (#12976374)
If I'm expecting to stop more than few seconds, I put my car in neutral. Every time. For last, let's see, 28 years since I have my driving license.
Re:Fewer than 3% of cars sold in the U.S. have manual transm... by usrusr on Thursday November 17, 2016 @05:28AM (#12976158)
What else is there to do? I don't text in the driver's seat, putting the gear in neutral gives my limbs something to do.

(It happens to involve the clutch, but that is "automatic", as in "muscle memory", even though I drive less than once a month)

Re:Fewer than 3% of cars sold in the U.S. have manual transm... by jperras on Thursday November 17, 2016 @02:15PM (#12980475)
Hi. I do this all the time if I'm going to be stopped for more than 2-3 seconds.
Re:Fewer than 3% of cars sold in the U.S. have manual transm... by rascul on Thursday November 17, 2016 @08:06AM (#12977068)
You can often take it out of gear without the clutch.