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Re:Firefox 50.0 by digi_owl on Tuesday November 15, 2016 @01:50PM (#12960983)
> View a page in Reader Mode by using Ctrl+Alt+R (command+alt+r on Mac)

Took them bloody long enough. Now if only i was not stuck on ESR because GTK3...

Re:Firefox 50.0 by tetromino_ on Tuesday November 15, 2016 @02:05PM (#12961129)
If you have a hard requirement to use a thoroughly obsolete GUI toolkit, you can for now fairly easily compile your own copy of Firefox for GTK2; it takes around 30-40 minutes on a laptop with a Core i5. (On Gentoo, there is a USE flag for it.)
Re:Firefox 50.0 by digi_owl on Tuesday November 15, 2016 @02:20PM (#12961253)
If it is that bloody simple, why can't Mozilla be bothered to provide an official download?!
Re:Firefox 50.0 by kbenson on Tuesday November 15, 2016 @02:28PM (#12961344)
Possibly for the same reason they don't ship Tk compiled versions. Why should they target every GUI toolkit and complicate their build process which they then have to deal with supporting?

If it's that easy, you can probably find some third party that compiles and offers it. I'm not sure why you think Firefox needs to do it themselves.

Re:Firefox 50.0 by dbl9 on Tuesday November 15, 2016 @02:36PM (#12961406)
For the same reason they haven't made 64-bit the default on Windows and provide two versions. There are many users for whom only one variant works reliably. If upstream, like in the case of cairo-gtk3, decides GTK2 is not supported anymore, it's a matter of chance whether your cairo-gtk2 build of Firefox works at all. For instance, for me 49.0.2 gtk2 local build on Arch crashes anytime I try to use the file dialog, while of course the file dialog of both GTK2 and GTK3 doesn't crash in other gtk apps on the same machine.

Somebody requested this and the reality has been ignored so far: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1268234

Re:Firefox 50.0 by kbenson on Tuesday November 15, 2016 @02:56PM (#12961597)
On windows, Firefox is the main supplier of binaries. I would hazard that on most Linux/BSD systems, the distribution is the main supplier of binaries. The distributions can easily build it as GTK2 if they want, or provide a GTK2 variant (and as pointed out above, some distributions seem to, or at least make it easy to build it yourself).

If you are on Linux and your distribution provides Firefox, this is a complaint to be leveled at your distribution, not Mozilla (who apparently already makes it easy to build the variant). I'm not sure how we got to a position where people feel justified in criticizing a company providing an open source product that's updated often and provides umpteen different binaries for different platforms and different build for those platforms for not building one more special configuration for what it likely a very small group of people, who can easily do so for themselves.

Re:Firefox 50.0 by dbl9 on Tuesday November 15, 2016 @03:18PM (#12961800)
In the past the GTK3 code path was tested only by Red Hat as the primary developer of all things GTK and GNOME. At that time, there was only a GTK2 build from Mozilla, and now instead of doing the same as Windows 32-bit/64-bit we're presented with just GTK3 support with the promise to obsolete the GTK2 code, while seemingly not considering the regressions of GTK3.

Why do we use Mozilla binaries of Firefox on linux distro where there's Firefox builds in the package repository? Many reasons:

1. fast access to security fixes

2. access to EMEfree builds

3. access to different channels

While it is easy to build with cairo-gtk2 as the backend, that code path, as I wrote in a sibling comment, reliably crashes for me anytime I try to do File-Open. I'll try to find out if that AUR recipe or Gentoo ebuild do something different that makes it stable, but the fact remains that GTK2 is about to be unsupported by Mozilla while GTK3 hasn't gotten stable yet, which will make life for anyone that tries to build a GTK2 variant very hard. Therefore, I wouldn't really say it's an easy choice.

Re:Firefox 50.0 by kbenson on Tuesday November 15, 2016 @04:41PM (#12962491)
> While it is easy to build with cairo-gtk2 as the backend, that code path, as I wrote in a sibling comment, reliably crashes for me anytime I try to do File-Open.

That points towards GTK2 support possibly not being functional, which could be a good reason why they don't provide a build for it, even if they wanted to.

It sounds like the real problem here is that Mozilla is changing stuff that some people don't want changed. I don't think the solution is to ask Mozilla to produce a GTK2 build, but to ask them to fix anything they've broken. If they've decided to move towards GTK3, then that's their choice, and presumably they have reasons for that choice. I don't think it's out of line for them to expect to support a single working build for an architecture/OS combo. That said, they can and should be notified and pressured to fix any regressions. Additionally, if the change is something people don't want, Mozilla should be notified of that (although I suspect there are technical reasons for the change that most people are ignoring).

Re:Firefox 50.0 by dbl9 on Tuesday November 15, 2016 @05:50PM (#12963045)
Good points. Just finished building firefox 50.0 with for cairo-gtk2 and trying it out now. Hope there are no crashes.

I agree with what you say and want to add that there two issues here. First is the GTK3 port of Firefox not working as a native Wayland GTK3 window. Second is the themeing issues with GTK3 that people ran into, which is something you can live with. Finally, it's the serious regressions of GTK3 itself which go unnoticed or ignored as evident in the gnome.org bug-tracker and the tickets I've linked to in a sibling comment.

The most important argument for Mozilla providing GTK2 builds is that otherwise the likelihood of the code bitrotting is very high as it happened with the Qt port. The interesting aspect of the Qt port was that at that point in time GTK2 was the best choice, but now for substantiated reasons major applications chose to rather port to Qt than GTK3. Therefore, if the Qt port were to be revived it's much more likely to be of interest and maintained than back when the GTK2 port was good enough that nobody cared about Qt.

I know X11 and Wayland are not Mozilla's main platforms of interest and I'm grateful that they do support with the feature set they do. I'm surprised at the seemingly isolated echo chamber perspective of the GTK3 devs. It's an interesting behavior to observe since without non-GNOME users it could just as well be rolled into GNOME itself. Interesting times, having lived through the times when jwz in 1998 was debating whether GTK1 was any good for Linux.

Re:Firefox 50.0 by kbenson on Tuesday November 15, 2016 @06:19PM (#12963210)
> First is the GTK3 port of Firefox not working as a native Wayland GTK3 window.

Is that officially supported yet? I see that back in June/July experimental support was released. Possibly is the current work in an effort to get that working, but it's not ready yet? I just tracked down what looks like the feature tracking bug[1], and it doesn't appear to be ready, but I could be reading it wrong.

> Second is the themeing issues with GTK3 that people ran into, which is something you can live with.

Sure, but from my own problems with themes in Chrome, it's not something you want to live with, especially if you used themes to signify instance information and they stopped working, so I feel people's pain there. :/ Preferably Mozilla would have kept this gated in a branch or experimental build until these issues were worked out. That said, earlier today I did see something about plugins built using GTK2 being loaded into Firefox with GTK3 and the symbols loading wrong, so perhaps it's a much harder problem than it seems, and if it requires theme's to rebuild, then perhaps the quickest and easiest way to make that happen is to force a little breakage. Then again, the distro build probably makes sure this isn't a problem.

> I'm surprised at the seemingly isolated echo chamber perspective of the GTK3 devs.

I imagine that's somewhat to do with where their focus lies. I'm under the impression that a lot of the funding comes from Red Hat, so there are likely complex motives at multiple levels from the enterprise to the funded developers (who might want to justify their paycheck).

In the end, it's one of those things that's hard to accurately critique as an outsider, because there's a lot of specific information that goes into a decision like that. Is a GTK2 to GTK3 migration easier than a GTK2 to QT (or some other toolkit) migration? Probably, but by how much? If this was happening a few years ago, we might be complaining that Firefox uses a toolkit (that is, underneath their own toolkit) instead of X directly. Now we have X and Wayland, so that wouldn't have presented a similar situation anyway. In the end, unless you have some upstream vendor willing to put lots of time and money into making sure you have a performant, backwards compatible API to call (e.g. Microsoft), you'll probably want to make changes at some point in any long-lived project.

1: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=635134

Re:Firefox 50.0 by hsivonen on Tuesday November 15, 2016 @04:10PM (#12962256)
The "EME-free" build differs only by the default value for the "Play DRM content" checkbox. You can put a normal build in the equivalent state by unchecking the checkbox.
Re:Firefox 50.0 by dbl9 on Tuesday November 15, 2016 @05:40PM (#12962986)
Good to know. I thought it doesn't include and prevent the download of some DRM blobs.
Re:Firefox 50.0 by cpeterso on Tuesday November 15, 2016 @06:57PM (#12963460)
The "Play DRM content" checkbox controls both the EME API and the automatic download and installation of the DRM blob (the Google Widevine CDM). So you are still correct. :)
Re:Firefox 50.0 by cpeterso on Tuesday November 15, 2016 @03:39PM (#12962000)
FWIW, 64-bit Firefox will be the installer default for new installs (and re-installs) on 64-bit Windows 7/8/8.1/10 starting in Firefox 53. Migrating existing 32-bit Firefox users to 64-bit will probably happen in mid-to-late 2017. Similarly, Google plans to migrate their 32-bit Chrome users to 64-bit sometime in 2017, too.

https://wiki.mozilla.org/Firefox/Win64

Re:Firefox 50.0 by stonogo on Tuesday November 15, 2016 @02:43PM (#12961478)
I know you're being facetious, but Mozilla shipped Motif builds for a really long time after most of the world had switched to GTK. Far longer than seemed reasonable at the time. Given that the majority of GTK-running systems support GTK2, and that the GTK3 builds of Firefox require GTK2 already, it seems very strange that the default distribution would bother with GTK3 at this time. I'm sure they have good reasons; I'm just curious about what they are.
Re:Firefox 50.0 by dbl9 on Tuesday November 15, 2016 @02:47PM (#12961515)
Do you know how to run Firefox 50 with GTK 3.22.0 and the native Wayland backend? If I try it, it crashes instantly, and I was surprised to see gtk3 and gtk2 linkage in the xul libs. Any idea?
Re:Firefox 50.0 by greendragon on Tuesday November 15, 2016 @02:34PM (#12961395)
I think the third party situation is unlikely, unless they're shipping a fork like IceWeasel or stripping out all branding information. At the end of the compilation process in Gentoo it helpfully tells you (if you enabled the Firefox Branding) that you cannot legally redistribute a branded version of Firefox.
Re:Firefox 50.0 by michaelmrose on Tuesday November 15, 2016 @02:48PM (#12961527)
If there are a bunch of people that need this you could do the community a service by doing it and hosting it somewhere for all interested parties.
Re:Firefox 50.0 by digi_owl on Tuesday November 15, 2016 @03:36PM (#12961972)
I do not have the time nor anywhere near the resources that Mozilla has to handle this. If i had either i would not be sitting here.
Re:Firefox 50.0 by aban on Tuesday November 15, 2016 @01:58PM (#12961073)
If you want to avoid GTK3 and you're on Arch, there's a firefox-gtk2 [0] AUR package that compiles Firefox against GTK2 only.

[0]: https://aur.archlinux.org/packages/firefox-gtk2

Re:Firefox 50.0 by dbl9 on Tuesday November 15, 2016 @02:31PM (#12961367)
My local cairo-gtk2 build of Firefox 49 reliably crashes anytime you try to use the GTK file dialog. Does it work for you (arch or gentoo)?
Re:Firefox 50.0 by aban on Tuesday November 15, 2016 @03:24PM (#12961855)
That's interesting. I've been happily using firefox-gtk2 and it's been working quite reliably.

Not only I haven't had any issues with it so far, it even looks better than Arch's official package (that's built with gtk3).

The issues have been present with gtk >= 3.20, and they should be fixed with release 50 and 51:

https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1266914

https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1264079

Re:Firefox 50.0 by greendragon on Tuesday November 15, 2016 @02:36PM (#12961411)
After almost a decade of building Firefox from source I finally bit the bullet to switch to a precompiled binary last month. It's fixed all the issues that have started to crop up but leaves a bad taste in the mouth.
Re:Firefox 50.0 by dbl9 on Tuesday November 15, 2016 @02:38PM (#12961432)
I had been using their binaries due to security updates and having to build at inopportune times for an hour or three (depending on machine), but like I wrote in a sibling comment, enabling the cairo-gtk2 backend resulted in crashes when trying to select a file with the gtk file dialog. So I bit the bullet and am struggling with the drawing regressions of GTK3.
Re:Firefox 50.0 by JoshTriplett on Tuesday November 15, 2016 @02:02PM (#12961110)
> Now if only i was not stuck on ESR because GTK3...

What's the issue with GTK3?

Re:Firefox 50.0 by dbl9 on Tuesday November 15, 2016 @02:29PM (#12961350)
GTK3 itself has various regressions and is slower than GTK2 despite the architectural refactoring lending itself to a snappier experience.

https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=771708

Firefox GTK3 has regressions too, for instance the bookmark manager not remembering where you were last which works with Firefox ESR (GTK2).

https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1267863

Also GTK3's file dialog is subjectively a huge regression, but others may prefer it, just like Apple's finder changed over time. I still haven't figured out how dconf and gconf work with GTK3, not using GNOME3 as a desktop.

There are more issues with GTK3 but these are the most visible for those of us who don't use GTK3 regularly as part of GNOME3 and have been forced to use it via Firefox. The way I read the GTK3 bugreport it seems like the devs don't test GTK3 outside GNOME3 and hence do not consider it a priority. That one dev has been stressing that a compositor is needed and multiple answers by the reporter that they're using a compositor seem to be missed during reading on the other side. It's a weird exchange. I'm with the reporter. If GTK3 is not supposed to or not tested outside GNOME3, then this should be communicated so that everyone can make an informed decision to use something else or revive the Firefox Qt toolkit code.

Re:Firefox 50.0 by jhoechtl on Tuesday November 15, 2016 @04:51PM (#12962582)
Serious comment:why bother with gtk anyhow and move to Qt?
Re:Firefox 50.0 by dbl9 on Tuesday November 15, 2016 @05:58PM (#12963095)
I love GTK2, but I can do without GTK3, seeing we're at 3.22 and it's still not as stable or regression free as GTK2.

I'd be the first to build and use a Firefox where the Qt port was updated and made to work but GTK is the GUI toolkit used by Firefox outside Android, macOS and Windows. That said, GTK2 was and still is very good at what it does. It just works but doesn't support Wayland.

I cannot move to Wayland anyway until xterm or rxvt-unicode are ported since XWayland integration is still imperfect. Like they wrote in the bug report, while GTK2 doesn't have a Wayland backend, GTK3's backend isn't really production quality either with dialogs sometimes opting to zoom out rather than scale out or general stability issues. If you try to start Firefox under Wayland by telling GDK to use Wayland, it just crashes on startup.

Re:Firefox 50.0 by piotrjurkiewicz on Tuesday November 15, 2016 @02:55PM (#12961585)
After switching to GTK3 version (Arch) I noticed it is much more sluggish and feels slower than previous versions. There are also some inconsistencies or just breaks in interface (I assume it is related to theming).
Re:Firefox 50.0 by alphapapa on Tuesday November 15, 2016 @10:10PM (#12964251)
It's fairly simple to build Firefox with Gtk2. There are some instructions here: https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/5b0vtd/howto_build_f...