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Re:Why 30 is the decade friends disappear by niftich on Sunday November 13, 2016 @12:38AM (#12942036)
The article recounts several anecdotes that hint at causes but stops short of authoritatively declaring a set of reasons (and answer its own headline). But the key point seems to be that social settings like high school and college result in the acquisition of most of one's friends, and as that group of friends goes their separate ways and people settle down to focus on themselves, work, or starting a family, there are fewer settings to get to know new people. But this is an unsatisfactory conclusion -- if every new family, every fresh-on-their-own adult, every new arrival in town within the same age and peer group experiencing the same social decline, why is this phenomenon so widely unsolved, and not self-correcting?

My hypothesis is that cultural changes have caused interactions with strangers to be largely perceived as unwelcome. When interactions do occur and aren't immediately dismissed, they're mentally filed as one-off events not requiring a follow-up -- talking with the person next to you on a plane, or striking up a conversation in the store.

There is a wide continuum of behaviors and interactions between courteous banter and harassment. This isn't the usual lament about how people don't talk to each other; this is the lament that people don't talk to each other because we don't want to be bothersome to others, even if sometimes we wouldn't mind being talked to.

The fact that 'friend dating' is now a real phenomenon, where people explicitly consent to having a mutual conversation, potentially pre-selected by interests and appearance, lends credence to this hypothesis.

Re:Why 30 is the decade friends disappear by SapphireSun on Sunday November 13, 2016 @01:43AM (#12942184)
It's easy to make friends. You just need to regularly encounter the same (not unlikable) people in a relaxed setting where you aren't beholden to each other. The problem is that we spend most of our time at work or with family. You have to go to a regular social activity or that won't happen. Of course, you also have to open your heart to the possibility as well.
Re:Why 30 is the decade friends disappear by estefan on Sunday November 13, 2016 @05:57AM (#12942784)
Actually, you need to meet people who are also open to making friends. But it depends what sort of friend you're looking for. Sure, you can make shallow friendships/acquaintances by just mixing with people regularly, but if you actually want a deeper friendship you need to meet people who have the time and inclination to put in the effort involved. This typically happens when you hit transitional points in life where you feel alone and want a group to belong to (e.g. school to college/university, into your first job away from home with a group of other new starters, mums having their first child, etc).

School, university, starting your first job with a group of others at the same time gives you ready made friends (provided you can sit next to them).

Friendship is basically a function of time and proximity. This has been shown in several studies and is accurate by my own experience anecdotally. Meeting people who already have a social circle or all their time allocated won't be conducive to making deeper friendships. Once you're in the world of work, going from one job to another, it can suddenly be very difficult to make deeper friendships, especially those that will endure one of you changing jobs (if they're colleagues).

Re:Why 30 is the decade friends disappear by nxzero on Sunday November 13, 2016 @07:17AM (#12942980)
>> "This has been shown in several studies"

Have links to these studies?

Re:Why 30 is the decade friends disappear by antome on Sunday November 13, 2016 @02:32AM (#12942285)
Precisely this. A common piece of advice I hear for people entering a new city for a new job with no one you know around, is to regularly engage in some hobby/activity that brings you in contact with mostly the same people. That could be a baking class, a cycling group, a board-game club, or all sorts of other things. There are a surprising number of possibilities if you actively seek them out.
Re:Why 30 is the decade friends disappear by somestag on Sunday November 13, 2016 @02:56AM (#12942358)
This is true. However, it becomes more difficult if the hobbies you're interested in tend to attract a type of person that you don't mesh with very well. You can't really become close friends with people whose company you don't enjoy.
Re:Why 30 is the decade friends disappear by mountaineer22 on Sunday November 13, 2016 @03:29AM (#12942428)
This was a strange realization for me as I "aged".

How can I have so much in common with a person, yet completely dislike them?

Re:Why 30 is the decade friends disappear by cryptarch on Sunday November 13, 2016 @03:52AM (#12942476)
LAN parties and most CS-related events do this for me.
Re:Why 30 is the decade friends disappear by StavrosK on Sunday November 13, 2016 @05:55AM (#12942773)
Because having things in common with a person is just nice, it doesn't really mean you'll like them. People you like are more often people who complement you, rather than people who are like you.
Re:Why 30 is the decade friends disappear by your_ai_manager on Tuesday November 15, 2016 @11:38AM (#12959561)
Re:Why 30 is the decade friends disappear by ZenoArrow on Sunday November 13, 2016 @03:44AM (#12942460)
Interesting. Can you give an example of a hobby you have that tends to attract people who you don't tend to gel with (for whatever reason)?
Re:Why 30 is the decade friends disappear by roel_v on Sunday November 13, 2016 @05:00AM (#12942621)
Not op, but

Computing events (so many stereotypically smelly antisocial people)

Fight sports (many wannabe criminals and general low lifes)

Ecological gardening (lots of self righteous hippies)

Then again, I guess if there are so many people I'm not fond of interacting with, maybe it's not them...

(to be fair there are also people in the above groups that are normal, but they're minorities)

Re:Why 30 is the decade friends disappear by klipt on Sunday November 13, 2016 @09:07AM (#12943354)
The problem with publicly advertised meetups is the selection effect - they tend to be patronized by people who lack the social skills to make friends.

Of course there are also people with social skills who attend those meetups, because e.g. they're just new in town, but if they meet some other people with social skills they will probably become friends with them, start organizing private meetups, and drop out of the public ones.

Re:Why 30 is the decade friends disappear by CJefferson on Sunday November 13, 2016 @02:11PM (#12945009)
I find this. Also, the people with social skills may only attend a couple of times, then stop, while other people carry on going for years.

This seems to often be a problem with public board gaming groups -- they get filled with players with antisocial tendencies, who scare off any new players.

Re:Why 30 is the decade friends disappear by ElysianEagle on Sunday November 13, 2016 @10:55AM (#12943898)
This has been my observation as well, having attending such events off and on over the years as I moved between cities. The more extroverted people connected with each other and were never to be seen again after one or two events, leaving the shy/awkward around as regulars.

In bigger cities, though, there's a constant influx of new arrivals so it's not so bad.

Re:Why 30 is the decade friends disappear by ixacto on Sunday November 13, 2016 @12:23PM (#12944392)
The more extroverted people do connect,make friends, and go on dates. This can be really frustrating it is mostly a matter of taking oneself out of the "comfort zone" be that work/church/school/basement and going out into the real world to talk to people.

It is not comfortable, but you will regret more not attending an event than if you did. It took one or two times of realizing that "I'm tired" at the end of the week was no excuse to avoid making friends.

You have to go out there and meet people, they don't necessarily have the will to meet you.

Re:Why 30 is the decade friends disappear by akvadrako on Sunday November 13, 2016 @01:36PM (#12944804)
I would not tell the parent how they will feel. For myself, I have been actively attending meetups and other events as a way to meet people for about a decade. At the beginning I forced myself to go, even if I doubted I would enjoy it. And sometimes I would make friends and get dates.

But eventually I realised I mostly regretted attending. Sure, you can meet people, but it's a setting that creates an initial bad impression and with people who are probably a bit socially awkward. Doing the initial greeting stuff got really old (job, home country, etc...) and most people were uncomfortable skipping it.

So now I never go to events to meet people. I only go if I would go anyway, because I'm curious enough or know I will enjoy myself. That's my recommendation, anyway.

Re:Why 30 is the decade friends disappear by your_ai_manager on Tuesday November 15, 2016 @11:44AM (#12959650)
It seems to me to come from a difference in priorities. I'll try something because I want a new experience, whereas the people who maintain the subcultures are there because they want to receive the social capital that goes along with being the best in their group.
Re:Why 30 is the decade friends disappear by 1337biz on Sunday November 13, 2016 @08:53AM (#12943312)
So true, same for me. Either the topic is interesting, or the people. But rarely both match.
Re:Why 30 is the decade friends disappear by KineticLensman on Sunday November 13, 2016 @01:03PM (#12944604)
> Can you give an example of a hobby you have that tends to attract people who you don't tend to gel with (for whatever reason)?

Photography. I love the image making and the enjoyment of the subjects, but most of the photographers I've met through clubs / trips seem more motivated by having the latest kit. Which isn't me at all.

Re:Why 30 is the decade friends disappear by mountaineer22 on Sunday November 13, 2016 @03:05PM (#12945320)
Cycling (road-bike).

Group-led scuba diving.

Re:Why 30 is the decade friends disappear by adamsea on Sunday November 13, 2016 @04:12AM (#12942523)
Maybe that indicates you should develop another hobby you have some interest in but more importantly where you like the typical person who seems to be attracted to said hobby.

We are all multifaceted people and we often don't acknowledge that. Even Richard Feynman played the bongoes.

Re:Why 30 is the decade friends disappear by Broken_Hippo on Sunday November 13, 2016 @06:23AM (#12942850)
Where do you even find these activities in the average small to medium town? I can find a few now that I'm in a "large" city after moving abroad, but these options were generally few when I lived in the states.

Except: Church organizations. And it seems such organizations prefer that you are also Christian or are willing to fake it.

Furthermore, the poorer one is, the less likely one can take advantage of these things, especially in a town of around 50k or less.

Re:Why 30 is the decade friends disappear by tluyben2 on Sunday November 13, 2016 @06:40AM (#12942886)
50k is not a small town to me; where I am from in towns of 50k there is everything to make friends very fast. Maybe it is different in the US, not sure.

I have lived the past 13 years in 3 tiny towns (under 100); just go to the bar every night. Made both good shallow and good deep friendships like that while I was over 30 most of that time. Mind you that was in another country with another language than my native. Personally I get depressed by big cities much faster; people I met when living in those are far (acting) busier and so need to keep things shallow.

Also, I seem to have some thing that people find weird; I can make and sustain deep friendships via internet chat alone. I have friends I speak to every day, who would do anything for me and I for them who I do not even know what their voice sounds like. I have started, ran and sold companies with friends who I have never seen or voice chatted to.

Re:Why 30 is the decade friends disappear by mattmanser on Sunday November 13, 2016 @06:58AM (#12942937)
10 years ago it was bulletin boards in your local supermarket and bulletin boards in the sports halls. Coffee shop notice boards. Library notice boards. Not sure if they're still used.

The digital equivalent of those places are Facebook groups. meetup.com, although their mobile redesign is a complete joke. Linked in groups. In the UK we have gumtree, probably Craigslist in the US. There's probably more, just sounds like you never looked.

You're looking for digital bulletin boards for your area, groups need new blood as much as you want to find them, you've just got to look.

Plus, of course, the local college night classes.

I just searched meetup for my costal corner of a home town of 20k in the UK and it had a bunch of meetups nearby, so it's pretty easy to find stuff.

Re:Why 30 is the decade friends disappear by dgudkov on Sunday November 13, 2016 @01:10PM (#12944636)
It's a good advice. Although, I noticed if you aren't performing well your chances to get new friends in hobby societies are lower. Especially in team activities, like volleyball. So it probably makes sense to choose a society for a hobby that you're good at.

Another observation -- finding new friends usually requires spending money for social activities. That's OK, but one has to be ready to spend more money than usually. I'm not saying that "free" activities never work. It just gives you fewer chances.

Re:Why 30 is the decade friends disappear by deepGem on Sunday November 13, 2016 @07:38AM (#12943053)
This is very true. When I was new to Portland, activities helped me make several friends. I joined hiking meetups and would randomly go on hikes to Rainier and Hood. I bought a bike and joined a biking meetup and met several good people. The key is to attend these events regularly. For me, the goal was not to make new friends but to just get reasonably good at the said activity. Making new friends was just a side effect.
Re:Why 30 is the decade friends disappear by floatalong on Sunday November 13, 2016 @10:08AM (#12943634)
Psychologists have long theorized that when the need to belong is unmet, people start to pay more attention to the world around them. Imagine times when you were driving down the highway, feeling hungry, and you noticed every single food sign you drove by. Same with friendships and loneliness. When you feel left out, or feel unconnected, then you notice social cues. You become hyper-aware of yourself and of other people.

Yet this doesn't drive toward social interaction. That's why you see lonely people standing in the back of the party, watching everyone else. Gardner's research suggests that people struggle to "self correct" (as you phrase it) because of feelings of loneliness. [0] This doesn't sound intuitive, but here is the idea.

When nonlonely people are surveyed, they cite commonsense solutions to making friends: clubs, sports, coworkers, coffee dates with acquaintances.

But when lonely people are surveyed, you'll likely hear something researchers call fantasy findings. Instead of planned coffee dates or the monthly photography club, lonely people believe that friends are made in chance meetings, blind luck, unlikely encounters, chatting someone up on the domestic flight. Lonely people may be unable to think practically about social outcomes and devise effective social strategies.

The author says "The ratio of times I hear, 'We should hang out!' to actual hangouts is about 10 to 1." These kind of fantasy offers express feelings of connection that bypass the difficulties of forming real relationships. Lonely people are very good at relying on these when thinking about forming connections.

It's not that lonely people don't know how to meet other people, it's that they associate friendships with daydreams, conjuring up images of togetherness.

[0] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16207773

Re:Why 30 is the decade friends disappear by nathanvanfleet on Sunday November 13, 2016 @12:48PM (#12944533)
What pervades your comment is that lonely people are somehow broken or stuck in a fantasy world. Is that really how you feel? There is a certain class of person who is incapable of making friend and will forever be lonely and a class of person who is somehow effective and organized about making friends that they make them.
Re:Why 30 is the decade friends disappear by elptacek on Sunday November 13, 2016 @01:42PM (#12944835)
This is particularly fascinating to me, because I am a deeply and painfully lonely person. My current working hypothesis is that my life experience has caused some level of attachment disorder, resulting in a feeling of loneliness even when I am not alone. The main reason I started going to various roller derby practices and events was to grow my circle of friends (the common sense advice -- clubs, events). This has happened, but I still feel a sense of apartness, which I suspect will take a long time to go away.

I've learned a lot about the mechanism of establishing friendships, though. As niftich points out above, I had the tendency to consider friendly encounters as one-offs; more specifically, "Oh, that happened. How pleasant." And then go through the mental acrobatics of wondering if the person would like to continue being friendly or [s]he was simply being polite. So the idea of "broken fantasy world" works in reverse here: I have a broken core belief where I don't understand the value someone gets out of hanging out with me.

Just a week ago, friends came over to celebrate my birthday and watch the WFTDA champs. Another friend who is not part of that circle remarked on something that hadn't really clicked for me -- I must be a good friend (and loved) because my house was full of people. So the feeling of loneliness, somehow baked into a bunch of erroneous core beliefs, also masks reality and hinders the formation of relationships.

Re:Why 30 is the decade friends disappear by moredhel on Sunday November 13, 2016 @08:47PM (#12946945)
This is interesting, I have been doing a little reading on it. Nothing particularly technical, but I would be interested to know whether you went to a boarding school. There has been some research on the matter, and I can see the relation (boarding school in several countries from 6+). I have a disturbingly high proportion of the symptoms mentioned on the following page[1]. I'm pretty sure that I have friends, but I don't know if it's true, so I never ask people for anything. I also have a tendency to push people away.

[1] http://www.ibblaw.co.uk/insights/blog/boarding-school-syndro...

Re:Why 30 is the decade friends disappear by elptacek on Monday November 14, 2016 @02:22PM (#12952476)
No, no boarding school. Just a seriously crappy childhood.
Re:Why 30 is the decade friends disappear by floatalong on Sunday November 13, 2016 @03:08PM (#12945340)
Most people try very hard, incredibly hard, to hide that they are lonely or don't have friends. Most people would rather admit they're depressed and get some quick pills rather than say "I'm lonely." Saying you're lonely broadcasts that you feel insufficient and unsafe. Because of that, it's much harder to ask for help and therapy, or even admit and accept that you're socially isolated.

I don't think this is a "forever" state as you put it, but I think this is why some people suffer for so long (some researchers call this chronic loneliness [0]), and turn to fantasizing friendships as a way to cope.

I want to believe there's a way out, I'm not certain, but I think therapy and mindfulness could help, and also being around secure/empathetic people. Loneliness is kicked around as the bastard child of psychology and most practitioners will disregard a lonely person as simply depressed.

But taken to an extreme, according to attachment theory, there is a class of people who naturally gravitate to social isolation yet, paradoxically, desire closeness -- they're called avoidant personality types [1]. There is early research (Bowlby, Ainsworth, lots to read online) that trace the development of this behavior to experiences as an infant. I think these types of people could get stuck in their ways through their 30s and 40s.

[0] http://magazine.uchicago.edu/1012/features/the-nature-of-lon...

[1] https://www.reddit.com/r/AvPD/

Re:Why 30 is the decade friends disappear by ZenoArrow on Sunday November 13, 2016 @04:50PM (#12945863)
> "there is a class of people who naturally gravitate to social isolation yet, paradoxically, desire closeness"

Thank you for the description of avoidant personality types, I recognise elements of this in myself.

Similar themes were explored in the anime Neon Genesis Evangelion. I would suggest the main protagonist Shinji definitely has these traits (probably expressed mostly directly through the 'Hedgehog's Dilemma'). I felt a certain amount of relief after finding that show, that at least the creators understood. It also helped that it was a great anime.

To be honest, whilst I don't have the same desire for friendship that I once did, the main thing I do have desire for is a form of sensuality (not sexuality). Moments that are complete without words/with very few words. That's not exactly the easiest thing to communicate to other people, so most of the time I'll just enjoy it in my own time.

Re:Why 30 is the decade friends disappear by serpix on Monday November 14, 2016 @06:23AM (#12949043)
You can satisfy your need for sensuality by going into social dancing events near you. Or join group singing events. None of these require you to be musical or able to dance at all! Just leave your prejudice and thinking at the door and enjoy the good vibes. Social dancing / Conscious clubbing is what keeps me going when I do this have a significant other in my life. The importance of touch and being touched is so important. It cannot be replaced with any amount of meditation or medication.
Re:Why 30 is the decade friends disappear by ZenoArrow on Monday November 14, 2016 @11:44PM (#12955641)
Thank you for your comment. I do enjoy dancing, and have enjoyed trying out different styles over the years. I've taken part in group singing too. I'm glad you have found great pleasure in these activities as well.

When it comes to activities, I'm not short of options. There are new things I want to try, and things I've already enjoyed. What I find less easy is to enjoy them with other people. For example, whilst I've danced with partners before, I tend to prefer dancing by myself. I'm very happy just closing my eyes and letting my body move to the music.

Re:Why 30 is the decade friends disappear by fragmede on Monday November 14, 2016 @11:22AM (#12950799)
> lonely people are somehow broken or stuck in a fantasy world.

That's almost a useful place to start, as long as you're not being judgmental about it. No one should think lonely people are stuck in a fantasy world.) If you can recognize that something is broken, then you can work on fixing it.

Recognizing that lonely people have fantasy notions of how friendships work is recognizing that in your 30's, it's a bit more work to form a friendship, compared to the lifelong bonds forged by the act of sharing a juice box during recess.

Cognitive behavioral therapy (CBT) is widely used to help reframe and de-fantasize a number of unproductive thought patterns so that instead of fantasizing about a chance meeting where someone instantly becomes your new BFF, mental energy is spent planning and arranging aromantic dates to form the foundation of a friendship, much like trying to find a romantic partner. It's an evidence-based practice for treating mental disorders originally for depression but it's proven helpful in a a wide range of mental health conditions, including identifying upsetting feelings and anxiety that frustrates the a person's attempt to make friends.

Re:Why 30 is the decade friends disappear by somestag on Sunday November 13, 2016 @02:47AM (#12942341)
There is a wide continuum of behaviors and interactions between courteous banter and harassment. This isn't the usual lament about how people don't talk to each other; this is the lament that people don't talk to each other because we don't want to be bothersome to others, even if sometimes we wouldn't mind being talked to.

Although I'm hesitant to generalize this to everybody, I've definitely observed this in my own life. I know that sometimes I could use some pleasant social interaction, but most of the time I just want to be left to myself. I assume other people are the same way, so I leave them alone.

The thing is, if everyone went off of the probability argument (they probably don't want to be bothered because most of the time they want to be left alone), no one would ever talk with anyone. We need the overly outgoing people--who aren't quite so sensitive to other people's alone time--to keep the communication flowing. I had a number of very close friends in high school, but only because a few of them would constantly get everyone else in our group together. Those people (who can get annoying, sometimes) are absolutely necessary for everyone else to form social bonds. Those types of people become busier as adults, and so they stop forming the groups that everyone else depended on. No working adult has time to hang out dozens of hours every week. The old friends might last, but the new friends are almost always kept at arm's length.

I think that friend dating is actually pretty great. It's not the kind of thing I'd take part in, but I absolutely see the value in a service that helps people meet on friendly terms.

Re:Why 30 is the decade friends disappear by bane on Sunday November 13, 2016 @09:40AM (#12943486)
I observed when I was growing up, and have heard similar anecdotes from many other people, that many people attend Church or a similar regular religious setting because of the social activities and opportunities to make friends and acquaintances. I know more than a handful of family members who's entire social circle revolves around church activities -- and many of them aren't really terribly religious. It makes quite a bit of sense, in most big metros you can find plenty of churches with congregations of well over a thousand members, giving you a large pool of possible social connections.

It seems as people in general become less religious, there's less of a default gathering place. But I've noticed that various types of fandoms seem to be filling in some of that gap. For example, if you have an interest in old computers and games there's a couple dozen big shows all over the U.S. every year and it's my understanding that many people have formed regular friendships because of these shows.

I almost wish there was a "Church of the Rational Mind" that met for service every Sunday morning at a local University auditorium, and you could hear lectures on various topics for an hour, then socialize afterwards. The Bible provides fodder for a tremendous number of sermons, on many topics, but there isn't the same kind of focused equivalent book for secularists.

Re:Why 30 is the decade friends disappear by WorldMaker on Monday November 14, 2016 @12:19PM (#12951384)
Unitarian Universalist Churches are often brought up as a good option for those seeking a "Rational Mind" church with a decent reach in most cities. As with any church the communities vary from church to church based upon the mix of people that show up every week. Most UU churches especially the growing few that prefer to place Universalist first in the name (Univeralist Unitarian) as something of a signal tend to draw from an increasingly broad set of spiritual sources/practices beyond just the bible [1] and sermons/lectures on a wide variety of topics.

The UU Churches are often very focused on their socialization side, with an old joke being that the UU sacrament is the social "miracle" of turning water into coffee.

There are a lot of more secular/atheist attendees of UU churches and UUs tend to embrace the diversity and the spectrum of beliefs. It's not a bad idea to give your local UU church a try if you haven't already.

[1] The interesting history of it is that both the Unitarians and the Universalists (once different groups) split from the mainstream Christian churches surprisingly early and relatively much more quietly compared to the Protestant revolution. The Unitarian dispute, especially, dates back the Nicene Convention that resulted in the Nicene Creed still central to modern Roman Catholicism and still often referred to by Protestants as well, although the organized church is quite a bit newer than that originating dispute in which the Trinitarians won the orthodoxy; UUs will tell you've they've been bucking orthodoxy for centuries.

Re:Why 30 is the decade friends disappear by drdeadringer on Monday November 14, 2016 @05:15PM (#12953858)
I just attended a UU church's 150th anniversary yesterday and the main sermon mentioned this very topic. "We need to change how we do church" type of thing, because "young people share many of our UU beliefs but do little more than stop by for one Sunday".

To me it's not a "attract them" problem, it's a "keep them" problem.

Re:Why 30 is the decade friends disappear by WorldMaker on Monday November 14, 2016 @06:25PM (#12954286)
That's an interesting point. (Certainly there still is an attract there problem too, because I know a lot of atheists/non-believers/secular humanists/pantheists don't always know that a UU church can be a kind and gentle social option, just as the person I was responding to seemed to be seeking.)

I know that I've long considered myself a UU "irregular", which makes me "part of the problem". I show up as I feel like it when the whim hits me or there's a lecture/speaker I want to hear that week or I generally just feel a need for some coffee with a group I know I can typically count on to socialize with. Without the implicit coercion of "traditional" services have behind them telling people they must show up every week, UU can be seen as having a bit of a disadvantage on that front in keeping/maintaining/growing their communities over time. (The little UU church that is my favorite in my hometown is not quite 150 itself yet, I don't think, but probably shares a lot of similar tales of growth and shrinking over a nearly as long of a lifespan.)

At that point, so far as my advice may be, for what little it might be worth, finding repeat visitors that become irregulars that become regulars are a marketing problem like just about any other social club or an MMO videogame. There probably are things to draw from some of how those cope (or don't) with very similar problems. Help people feel welcome, help them feel engaged, help them find reasons to keep coming back.

Re:Why 30 is the decade friends disappear by drdeadringer on Thursday November 24, 2016 @12:56PM (#13031655)
> a UU "irregular"

That's a nice phrase, and it seems to describe be at the moment as well.

Re:Why 30 is the decade friends disappear by mathattack on Sunday November 13, 2016 @09:58AM (#12943570)
In Judaism, "community" is an explicit part of observance. It's also a reason Jews are nudged to be members of a temple. (Many others too)

In Silicon Valley I've seen non-theistic churches sprouting up. I believe the Society for Ethical Culture on New York is similar.

Re:Why 30 is the decade friends disappear by neuromantik8086 on Sunday November 13, 2016 @06:51PM (#12946508)
I've been to Ethical Culture services a couple times and found them to be enjoyable and filled with open/amicable individuals, although I do have a couple misgivings:

For one thing, full membership requires you to tithe a fixed percentage (2%) of your income to the organization. Maybe I'm just being cheap, but I don't make a ton of money in research and that coupled with living in the most expensive area of the US makes me less inclined to seek out membership in their congregation.

I also feel weird about how they discuss their founder, Felix Adler. The number of times they invoke him seems almost like it's a cult of personality for him / he serves as a Jesus stand-in, and while I can't say I feverishly dislike the man, that was a huge turn off. If the group's observances were less centered around him and more concentrated on a broader variety of humanist figures, I would be able to get behind them a bit more.

The last issue I have with Ethical Culture is that it felt very monocultural / like an echo chamber. I'm fairly liberal by most standards, but I like to have exposure to individuals with different viewpoints from my own, be they conservative or libertarian. In Ethical Culture, any group other than die-hard liberals would meet with stiff opposition rather quickly and this was something I wasn't very comfortable with when I did attend services there. When I was religious, my church congregation was a much better mix of political perspectives (and even theological disagreements occurred occasionally).

In NYC, I've had much better experiences with the Secular Humanist Society of NY. It's much less formal, much more cost-effective for an expensive city (their meetings are in the back rooms of bars for the most part and yearly membership is only around $20 last time I checked) and it feels a lot more egalitarian / less hierarchical.

Re:Why 30 is the decade friends disappear by iQuercus on Sunday November 13, 2016 @10:06AM (#12943620)
The question is, can you effectively replace a meeting to discuss the nature of life and existence with a meeting to discuss games and movie fandoms?

Or does that deeper topic interplay with meeting and socializing with people?

Re:Why 30 is the decade friends disappear by sgt101 on Sunday November 13, 2016 @10:13AM (#12943671)
But would it be rational to go?
Re:Why 30 is the decade friends disappear by pjc50 on Monday November 14, 2016 @05:33AM (#12948808)
> interactions with strangers to be largely perceived as unwelcome

I think this is very much a density thing. In an urban environment, it would simply occupy too much time and effort to acknowledge people because there are too many of them. That leaves this environment where if someone does start speaking to you, you assume (often correctly) that they want something or are weird.

Whereas if you're out in the middle of nowhere it would be extremely odd not to acknowledge the few people you did meet.

> mentally filed as one-off events not requiring a follow-up -- talking with the person next to you on a plane

The protagonist's "single serving friends" from Fight Club.

Re:Why 30 is the decade friends disappear by coldtea on Sunday November 13, 2016 @02:13AM (#12942230)
>if every new family, every fresh-on-their-own adult, every new arrival in town within the same age and peer group experiencing the same social decline, why is this phenomenon so widely unsolved, and not self-correcting?

Because most problems are not self-correcting -- they require real and conscious effort, and even that can be futile if it goes against larger forces (e.g. economic downturn / necessity).

Poverty, sexism, discrimination, bullying, corrupted politicians, bureaucracy, the examples of not self-correcting issues are countless.

Re:Why 30 is the decade friends disappear by niftich on Sunday November 13, 2016 @02:16AM (#12942240)
Yes, but if everyone's (supposedly) lonely, why don't everyone's incentives align in their quest to be less lonely? That was the rhetorical question I expressed.

Sexism, discrimination, bullying -- there are no aligned incentives on opposite sides of these, by definition, so no expectation whatsoever that they'd be self-correcting.

Re:Why 30 is the decade friends disappear by somestag on Sunday November 13, 2016 @03:03AM (#12942379)
Because the process of becoming "less lonely" is time-consuming and sometimes downright uncomfortable, and success isn't even guaranteed. Friendship is what happens when you enjoy each other's company.

If 20 lonely people are sitting in a room, no one's going to stand up and say, "Hey, I bet a lot of us are lonely. Why don't we hang out together?" Even though they're right that everyone is lonely, what are the chances they'll all get along? Or maybe one person goes around to the 19 others and individually asks each one to be friends. The success rate on that is going to be rather low, and it'd take a lot of time.

Your rhetorical question is misguided because it presumes that loneliness implies an already existing effort ("quest") to be less lonely. I think it's safe to say that most lonely people have no idea how to go about being less lonely (and if they do have an idea, it's daunting to them).

Re:Why 30 is the decade friends disappear by onion2k on Sunday November 13, 2016 @03:35AM (#12942442)
Admitting being lonely is a social taboo in most situations - it's perceived as failure. While many people feel it, few are willing to seek help.
Re:Why 30 is the decade friends disappear by ZenoArrow on Sunday November 13, 2016 @03:56AM (#12942485)
> "While many people feel it"

There's a useful distinction to be made between lonely and just being alone. Alone is the state of not having anyone else close to you in that moment, lonely is a negative emotion that comes from being alone.

It's quite possible to enjoy being alone, I know I do, my mind is much freer to wander, and I sure I'm not the only person that feels this way. As Byron put it...

"There is a pleasure in the pathless woods, There is a rapture on the lonely shore, There is society, where none intrudes, By the deep sea, and music in its roar: I love not man the less, but Nature more"

There's also a style of alone that can be very enjoyable, which isn't so widely commented on, and that's to be part of the hustle and bustle of a big city, with lots of human activity around you, but where you're only involved as a passive observer. Buses are good for getting in this state, as is exploring a city by foot (even better in a country where you don't speak the language), but really it's a mindset that's available anytime.

Re:Why 30 is the decade friends disappear by vertex-four on Sunday November 13, 2016 @09:25AM (#12943421)
Being alone when you have an obvious choice not to be is nice. I can usually choose to phone up a handful of friends, or make it out to the hackspace, and be almost sure to meet someone. Being alone and not having that opportunity sucks, on the other hand.
Re:Why 30 is the decade friends disappear by ZenoArrow on Sunday November 13, 2016 @04:32PM (#12945792)
Obligation can suck the fun out of anything. That includes feeling obligated to interact, as well as feeling obligated to not interact.

That said, if someone wants to overcome loneliness, it's possible for them to make their own opportunities to interact. Finding people with shared interests is easier than ever, now that we have the Internet.

Re:Why 30 is the decade friends disappear by Too on Monday November 14, 2016 @03:44AM (#12948395)
So it's essentially the prisoners dilemma. Two persons must admit they are lonely for mutual benefit but nobody dare to do it first in fear of being the only one being perceived as failure.
Re:Why 30 is the decade friends disappear by sgt101 on Sunday November 13, 2016 @10:19AM (#12943701)
Because evolution.

After 30 you are dead to your genes. The machinery that drives you before then expires, and you have to find another way.

It's pretty hard.

Re:Why 30 is the decade friends disappear by arpa on Monday November 14, 2016 @04:54AM (#12948665)
Well, it'd be nice if you backed that "After 30 you are dead to your genes" with something more scientific. Because it does not make sense, really. Menopause is still some 20 years away, and even then there's evolutionary advantage of living, to provide to your offsprings and offsprings of your offsprings (hence why women live longer than men, even after menopause), see [1]. If anything, you're very much alive to your genes at your thirties, only that genes require you to focus not as much on you finding a mate. By this age, your genes assume, you have found a mate and probably have procreated at least once. So the focus shifts to providing for your progenies, and social aspects, such as "friends" ("potential ways to get laid" for your genes), naturally, wane. So you're right about that part, that it's probably evolutionary predisposition to make friends at younger age to find a mate; having said that, I have reasonable suspicion, though, that your statement "After 30 you are dead to your genes" is grossly incorrect, though.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grandmother_hypothesis

Re:Why 30 is the decade friends disappear by unFou on Sunday November 13, 2016 @07:38PM (#12946682)
Dunno, I'm pretty sure people are still having sex and babies after 30...
Re:Why 30 is the decade friends disappear by coldtea on Sunday November 13, 2016 @11:35PM (#12947601)
Which doesn't really change genetic factors based on some hundreds of thousands of years of evolution predisposing people towards early (15-25) child bearing.

Those take much more than the entire recorded human history to change...

Re:Why 30 is the decade friends disappear by TeMPOraL on Sunday November 13, 2016 @08:40AM (#12943251)
I'd also add the obvious: most problems we see are not self-correcting because if they were, they'd already correct themselves.
Re:Why 30 is the decade friends disappear by avisser on Sunday November 13, 2016 @05:35PM (#12946115)
Ahh, the old self-selecting, non self-correcting bias.
Re:Why 30 is the decade friends disappear by z3t4 on Sunday November 13, 2016 @01:58AM (#12942204)
nurturing relationships take time, it takes time away from family and work. When you are young you have no family nor job, so you can spend a lot of time with friends.
Re:Why 30 is the decade friends disappear by ianai on Sunday November 13, 2016 @02:14AM (#12942234)
I really think it's a time constraint thing. Modern life demands you give up 40 hours a week to a job. There's also the time spent outside of work but "preparing" to work. Driving to work takes time. Cleaning your work clothes and prepping lunch takes even more time. If you have kids or a spouse they'll make other demands on your time. It adds up to not a lot of time to idly interact.
Re:Why 30 is the decade friends disappear by gaius on Sunday November 13, 2016 @06:03AM (#12942797)
There is a wide continuum of behaviors and interactions between courteous banter and harassment

The modern problem is that you don't even know where initiating a conversation falls. Even saying "hello" is a hate crime in some people's minds. Who wants to take the risk? Even if you're with your friends, you never know who's listening at the next table, with their finger on the tweet button... It has a chilling effect.

Re:Why 30 is the decade friends disappear by atomical on Sunday November 13, 2016 @09:37AM (#12943472)
A random person's tweet has a chilling effect?
Re:Why 30 is the decade friends disappear by morgante on Sunday November 13, 2016 @10:38AM (#12943808)
Yes. Since seeing some of the latest feminist theories online, I avoid saying anything to women I don't know. I'd much rather avoid the risk of a negative outcome than gamble on the small potential for a positive, friendly interaction.

Edit: I'm not sure whether this is a good or bad change. Perhaps it is in fact better to avoid the small chance of great harm by sacrificing the larger chance of small benefit.

Downvoters: This is not meant to be a political point, just an observation of my own behavior.

Re:Why 30 is the decade friends disappear by marvin on Sunday November 13, 2016 @01:48AM (#12942190)
Is "friend dating" really a thing? That sounds even more ridiculously contrived than "safe spaces".
Re:Why 30 is the decade friends disappear by tantivy on Sunday November 13, 2016 @02:28AM (#12942275)
Look up Bumble BFF. I know several people who have made friends on there and for whom it had a positive effect.
Re:Why 30 is the decade friends disappear by marvin on Sunday November 13, 2016 @02:44AM (#12942331)
Looks like my comment was interpreted differently than intended -- if "friend dating" is a way to meet people you wouldn't otherwise have met, it sounds like an OK way to handle a super-busy schedule. Still treating the symptom rather than the cause, but okay.

I interpreted the term as a way to vet potential friends before becoming actual friends, to reduce the risk of having to deal with a somewhat incompatible person in an adult and non-structured manner.

Re:Why 30 is the decade friends disappear by tonyedgecombe on Sunday November 13, 2016 @02:20AM (#12942250)
Isn't this what meetup.com is about?
Re:Why 30 is the decade friends disappear by 1337biz on Sunday November 13, 2016 @08:55AM (#12943324)
MeetUp seems to be mostly about offline user groups now. Mostly about tech - at least in my town.
Re:Why 30 is the decade friends disappear by akvadrako on Sunday November 13, 2016 @01:40PM (#12944822)
Although a majority of groups are about tech, in most medium cities you can find meetups for hundreds of non-tech topics with enough people attending each week.