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Re:Obama Administration Gives Up on Pacific Trade Deal by jrs235 on Friday November 11, 2016 @04:20PM (#12934448)
25% does not make a mandate.

Edit: Only ~50% of eligible voters voted. Half of those voted for the winner. That's only 25% that actively voted in support of the winner.

Re:Obama Administration Gives Up on Pacific Trade Deal by YuriNiyazov on Friday November 11, 2016 @04:22PM (#12934475)
The 25% is a consequence of the Electoral College system. And before someone says "well, we should just go by popular vote" - if the election was determined by popular vote, the campaigns would have completely different strategies, with different participation and outcomes.
Re:Obama Administration Gives Up on Pacific Trade Deal by jrs235 on Friday November 11, 2016 @04:39PM (#12934658)
The 25% is not a consequence of the Electoral College system. The 25% is a consequence of only 50% of eligible voters voting, half of which voted for the winner.
Re:Obama Administration Gives Up on Pacific Trade Deal by lambertsimnel on Friday November 11, 2016 @06:07PM (#12935321)
True, but the electoral college contributes to the problem. In winner-takes-all states that are heavily for one party or the other, there is not much incentive to vote. Turnout would almost certainly be higher under a national popular vote.
Re:Obama Administration Gives Up on Pacific Trade Deal by woliveirajr on Friday November 11, 2016 @04:43PM (#12934710)
Then people could complain or discuss about voluntary versus obligatory voting, then about having just two real candidates versus more (powerful) parties, then about limited vs unlimited funding, then private vs company vs public funding, then about quotas for any category you name, then ...

There are so many combinations and possibilities that it's hard to say which one is the best.

And all them can be gamed.

Re:Obama Administration Gives Up on Pacific Trade Deal by eru on Friday November 11, 2016 @04:55PM (#12934833)
> [...] then about having just two real candidates versus more (powerful) parties [...]

You can have more than two candidates without more powerful parties.

Proportional representation leads to parties, something like range voting can keep the primacy of candidates, but lets us escape from the two party system.

http://rangevoting.org/

Re:Obama Administration Gives Up on Pacific Trade Deal by lambertsimnel on Friday November 11, 2016 @06:16PM (#12935369)
Proportional representation in the electoral college is equivalent to a national popular vote, and is no more or less conducive to party power than the status quo.

Proportional representation in the House of Representatives is possible without increasing party power (or even without parties at all) by using Single Transferable Vote.

Instant Runoff Voting (the single-winner variant of Single Transferable Vote) for presidential (and gubernatorial) elections would help to protect against excessive party power by allowing third party and non-party candidates a fair chance.

Re:Obama Administration Gives Up on Pacific Trade Deal by eru on Saturday November 12, 2016 @08:56AM (#12937802)
Instant Runoff Voting (and the Single Transferable Vote) wouldn't really help: Australia has those, and if anything, there electoral system is even worse than Britain and the US---eg they don't have a single non-white MP.
Re:Obama Administration Gives Up on Pacific Trade Deal by lambertsimnel on Saturday November 12, 2016 @11:39AM (#12938661)
Electoral systems can do little for democracy other than promote majority rule. STV and related systems do this well and also provide proportional representation on non-party matters. Civil society also has a role to play in keeping democracy healthy.

Instant Runoff Voting is really only suitable for single winner elections like presidential, gubernatorial and mayoral elections, and not for the multi-winner legislative elections it is used for in Australia.

There are better forms of STV than that used for the Australian Senate, but I'd take any form of STV over FPTP.

Re:Obama Administration Gives Up on Pacific Trade Deal by eru on Saturday November 12, 2016 @03:24PM (#12939976)
FPTF is definitely awfully. STV might be marginally better or not. But why settle for something so marginal and still clearly suboptimal. It's also complicated to explain, yet alone count votes.

Approval Voting or Range Voting are much simpler to explain and to execute, and they have much better properties. (And, yes, I can well believe that the Australian system can be improved up on, and doesn't present the best version of STV. There's lots wrong with Australia, so this aspect probably too. Eg, their STV system requires a valid ballot to rank all parties, making sure that every vote cast will eventually be counted for one of the major parties. The guy who came up with a hack to avoid having to choose a major party got jailed for promoting it. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Langer_vote)

Range Voting is literally the same procedure people know from figure skating competitions in the olympics: the judges (=voters) give the candidates numbers, candidate with the highest average wins.

Approval voting can be explained as: just like FPTP, but ticking multiple candidates (eg everybody but Trump or Hillary) doesn't void your ballot. (Or you can see it as a special case of Range Voting, that only allows the numbers 0 and 1. Approval voting was my favourite system to elect a single winner, until I learned about Range Voting.)

The range voting guys wrote about STV, too, see http://www.rangevoting.org/rangeVirv.html

Re:Obama Administration Gives Up on Pacific Trade Deal by lambertsimnel on Saturday November 12, 2016 @06:44PM (#12940876)
By "STV" I mean the multi-winner form ("quota-preferential" or "PR-STV"). Neither range voting nor approval voting is a substitute for it; they don't provide proportional representation. For that you need Reweighted Range Voting: http://rangevoting.org/RRVr.html

I'd be happy to see STV, RRV or both used more widely.

Re:Obama Administration Gives Up on Pacific Trade Deal by eru on Sunday November 13, 2016 @05:04AM (#12942635)
Oh, I don't have too much of an opinion on multi-winner systems right now---apart from the practical observation that the post-war German systems seems to produce appropriately boring consensus politicians. (But I highly doubt it's an particularly optimal system.)

I'll look into it, thanks.

My note was about single-winner systems.

Re:Obama Administration Gives Up on Pacific Trade Deal by vacri on Friday November 11, 2016 @04:33PM (#12934586)
Given that the vote was basically 50-50, and that most of the votes are cast outside the swing states that got the attention, then no, the 'mandate' result would not have been different from 25%. Different tactics wouldn't shift that general number much.
Re:Obama Administration Gives Up on Pacific Trade Deal by Amezarak on Friday November 11, 2016 @04:23PM (#12934490)
In that case, virtually no elected official in the US has ever had a mandate, and our government should therefore do nothing.

Yes, lots of potential voters don't vote. They made that choice. It's not a new choice. This election is not much different from any other. We'd surely argue that Obama or Reagan had mandates, but they also didn't clear 50% of eligible voters. Indeed, even in Reagan's "landslide" 1980 election, he won only 50.7% of the popular vote, and only 52.6% of voters turned out - numbers not radically different from this time around - 47.2% of the popular vote where 56.9% of voters turned out.

Re:Obama Administration Gives Up on Pacific Trade Deal by skylan_q on Friday November 11, 2016 @04:23PM (#12934487)
It sure does. We're all going to have to live it. It doesn't get more mandate-y than that.
Re:Obama Administration Gives Up on Pacific Trade Deal by melling on Friday November 11, 2016 @04:23PM (#12934485)
No, but losing the Rust Belt cost the Democrats the election. The loss of manufacturing cost a lot of jobs in that region.
Re:Obama Administration Gives Up on Pacific Trade Deal by threeseed on Friday November 11, 2016 @04:28PM (#12934533)
Jobs that are never coming back.

Renewables and natural gas will decimate coal in the coming years. And low end product manufacturing won't be able to compete with the cheaper labour and supply chain superiority of other countries.

US manufacturing if it survives at all will be high end, highly skilled work. And the US is woeful when it comes to investing in technical training.

Re:Obama Administration Gives Up on Pacific Trade Deal by melling on Friday November 11, 2016 @04:42PM (#12934695)
Why are you telling me this?

I was explaining why Clinton lost the election. Someone needs to solve the Rust Belt problem. I have no idea if Trump has a plan but he did not ignore the people in those states so they voted for him.

You don't win votes by telling people their jobs aren't coming back.

Re:Obama Administration Gives Up on Pacific Trade Deal by enraged_camel on Saturday November 12, 2016 @02:28AM (#12937017)
>>You don't win votes by telling people their jobs aren't coming back.

I think you can, if you present them with alternatives that make sense. Coming up with such alternatives requires a lot of planning and creative thinking through, which Hillary thought not worth it because polls showed her ahead in those states...

Re:Obama Administration Gives Up on Pacific Trade Deal by threeseed on Friday November 11, 2016 @04:57PM (#12934846)
Because I would argue Hillary didn't lose the rust belt.

Trump won it. By lying to those people that he will bring their jobs back.

Re:Obama Administration Gives Up on Pacific Trade Deal by chillacy on Friday November 11, 2016 @05:10PM (#12934946)
I think with enough regulation, he can bring their jobs back. It just comes at the cost of productivity, which means we end up paying extra for it.

Consider the Obama tire tariffs. Tire manufacturing is up in the US, we created some jobs, but overall we all collectively pay way more in tires.

Re:Obama Administration Gives Up on Pacific Trade Deal by jessaustin on Friday November 11, 2016 @06:28PM (#12935434)
Yeah tires are really expensive now. It stands to reason, that they would pick a product that even poor people have to buy. Couldn't have tariffs on fancy phones and luxury cars!
Re:Obama Administration Gives Up on Pacific Trade Deal by chillacy on Friday November 11, 2016 @06:56PM (#12935606)
Yup. More details: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2012/10/23/how-o...

We all collectively paid $1.1 billion dollars to give up to 1200 people a job in the tire industry.

Re:Obama Administration Gives Up on Pacific Trade Deal by YuriNiyazov on Friday November 11, 2016 @07:44PM (#12935840)
Yup, and we should've been willing to pay a whole lot more, so that more people kept their rust-belt jobs, and weren't swayed by Trump's "jobs, jobs" appeal.
Re:Obama Administration Gives Up on Pacific Trade Deal by melling on Friday November 11, 2016 @05:25PM (#12935042)
Wow, i feel better now. She didn't lose, Trump won. Do you belong to a generation where everyone is a winner?

The person who runs our country depends on those votes. It's really important that people are not forgotten. If Trump makes even a little progress with jobs, he'll be a two term president.