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Re:How settling Mars could create a new human species by api on Tuesday November 08, 2016 @12:04PM (#12901907)
This is absolutely correct from a perspective of bog-standard evolutionary biology. A "fork" of a species into two very different environments with limited gene flow between them is virtually guaranteed to eventually lead to speciation event.

Not that there's anything wrong with that. :)

Re:How settling Mars could create a new human species by rootbear on Tuesday November 08, 2016 @12:13PM (#12902001)
Agreed. It would be interesting to see how genetic engineering might be used to "steer" the changes needed to adapt to life on Mars. I've been concerned about the gravity issue for some time. It's not at all clear that 0.38g is healthy for humans in the long term. And the radiation threat is a very serious issue, even just for the trip out there. The long term effects are hard to predict. It really is a pity that Venus is such a hell hole; 0.87g would be much nicer on the human body.
Re:How settling Mars could create a new human species by M_Grey on Tuesday November 08, 2016 @12:24PM (#12902093)
Or we could try to exploit the 78%+ of this planet we don't use... the oceans. Easier than space, that's for damned sure.
Re:How settling Mars could create a new human species by eveningcoffee on Tuesday November 08, 2016 @12:39PM (#12902242)
We are exploiting the oceans to large degree: fishing, oil pumping, waste dumping, trade routes, even possibly some of the CO2 accumulation.
Re:How settling Mars could create a new human species by M_Grey on Tuesday November 08, 2016 @12:42PM (#12902268)
I was thinking more in terms of places to live actually... since that's the only benefit Mars has for us. Asteroid mining is an easy thing to see the benefit of, but colonizing another gravity well without fully exploiting our own? Not so much.
Re:How settling Mars could create a new human species by wongarsu on Tuesday November 08, 2016 @01:42PM (#12902793)
But what advantages does settling the ocean have compared to say, settling Wyoming (which with 6 people per square mile is much, much closer to the average population density of the ocean than the average population density of land)?

With settling Mars we mitigate a number of potential extinction events, and fulfill some science fiction dreams. Living in the ocean also helps with both goals, but to a much lesser degree.

Re:How settling Mars could create a new human species by M_Grey on Tuesday November 08, 2016 @02:43PM (#12903323)
Living on Mars only obviates the risk of extinction when it has a biosphere capable of supporting life, or is sufficiently advanced to survive without regular shipments from Earth. We're not even remotely close to that, even in the planning or dreaming stages. That said, Wyoming makes more sense than Mars too.
Re:How settling Mars could create a new human species by Apocryphon on Tuesday November 08, 2016 @02:41PM (#12903309)
Wyoming is closer to the Yellowstone Caldera.
Re:How settling Mars could create a new human species by M_Grey on Tuesday November 08, 2016 @03:17PM (#12903556)
If that puppy blows, any colony on Mars would almost certainly die off, unless they had become totally self-sufficient. I can't imagine that an Earth struggling with that level of natural disaster would bother with such a far-flung enterprise.
Re:How settling Mars could create a new human species by pharke on Tuesday November 08, 2016 @01:24PM (#12902634)
Perhaps, the sea poses its own set of challenges. Given sufficient funds, anyone can buy a boat but deriving useful benefit from seafaring is another story. If you were to explore the 'unused' or currently unexploited aspects of the ocean it would require similar investments in research, life support, materials, construction, and a host of other areas that also need to be tackled for space colonisation and exploration.

Say you wanted to create a city sized operation/colony. If we start by comparing to vessels and platforms already in operation we see that the price tag for such can vary between $250 million and >$1 billion for both cruise ships and oil platforms. Those costs are for established technologies with existing production infrastructure and with the assumption of constant resupply and a market for the goods and services they produce. If you were to break ground on a completely new area the costs would be much, much higher.

There's also the question of what special benefit we gain from moving an operation to the ocean when compared to doing something similar on land. Both are still on Earth with all its pros and cons but the ocean simply multiplies the engineering challenges. You could ask the same question of space but the difference is that a space based facility has several major advantages that go hand in hand with the challenges it presents. Namely, greatly reduced gravity, vast amounts of 'rare' elements, the potential to move large quantities of material with a comparatively small vehicle/engine, and the prestige that comes with a new frontier.

Finally, doing one does not necessarily mean we neglect the other. There are many areas where advances in one could benefit the other and there are proposals for systems that would see a great deal of overlap between the two, such as the Sea Dragon.[0]

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sea_Dragon_(rocket)

Re:How settling Mars could create a new human species by M_Grey on Tuesday November 08, 2016 @03:16PM (#12903550)
I would agree that on land makes a lot of sense in terms of living space, but in terms of trade and all of the other factors which have traditionally driven humans to the coasts, not so much. By contrast Mars offers nothing that isn't more readily obtained from asteroids, and still offers a gravity well to be stuck in. If you want zero G, vacuum industries, that kind of thing... moons or large asteroids make much more sense than Mars.

A terraformed Mars makes sense, but it's not exactly impending. If you just think about it terms of colonies on Earth, colonies existed because they had something to offer the "mainland". Sugar, rum, slaves, spices... something. Colonies without that benefit didn't stay colonies for long, and what's the point of creating... I don't know... SpaceHaiti2000?

Re:How settling Mars could create a new human species by eloisant on Wednesday November 09, 2016 @11:30AM (#12911556)
And let's not forget the Sahara, the Gobi Desert, etc...

Cleaning the atmosphere and terraforming those deserts is probably much easier than terraforming Mars.

Re:How settling Mars could create a new human species by dpc59 on Tuesday November 08, 2016 @12:43PM (#12902275)
Not necessarily, deep water is a shit ton of pressure.
Re:How settling Mars could create a new human species by M_Grey on Tuesday November 08, 2016 @12:43PM (#12902288)
Still easier than vacuum, hard radiation, and total isolation from a functional biosphere. You don't have to colonize the Marianas Trench after all.
Re:How settling Mars could create a new human species by rawnlq on Tuesday November 08, 2016 @12:34PM (#12902199)
Where does the selection pressure come from though?

I have enough faith in our race that even if we have someone who is genetically less fit for mars we won't just let him die before he reaches a reproductive age.

So will it be by their potential partners? It would be pretty funny if they end up developing martian dating apps that requires putting their DNA sequences online just like how height and race is currently required.

Re:How settling Mars could create a new human species by LeifCarrotson on Tuesday November 08, 2016 @01:02PM (#12902465)
> martian dating apps that requires putting their DNA sequences online

This isn't how selection pressure works. And while you're correct that we won't let a human die, potential partners already do a sort of DNA analysis. While it's not as ruthless as in the wild, potential partners definitely evaluate each other based on criteria like fitness, appearance, and intelligence, which have genetic components.

Consider that the Martian environment might make individuals who are genetically more susceptible to skin cancer likely to have facial scarring before reproductive age, or make lanky individuals more graceful in the low gravity, or make short people able to move through small hab units with less awkwardness. Or consider the potential effects of claustrophobia or a proclivity for motion sickness on life in space, or the demands on intelligence and resulting careers.

These effects would cause some genotypes to be more attractive than others in a different way than they are on Earth where, for example, height is often considered attractive and is not penalized by short space hab ceilings. It's not that those lacking these traits would be prohibited from reproducing, but that they would have a bit of a challenge finding partners, while those possessing the traits would find it slightly easier. As a result of a few on the margin failing or succeeding in finding partners, those with the traits might have 2.55 children on average, and those without might have 2.53 children. Eventually, this pressure could shift the gene pool in a different direction than Earth.

Re:How settling Mars could create a new human species by erispoe on Tuesday November 08, 2016 @01:44PM (#12902812)
> potential partners definitely evaluate each other based on criteria like fitness, appearance, and intelligence, which have genetic components

To have sex, yes, but I'm not sure it translates in any meaningful in the number of surviving offsprings we have, therefore eliminating selection pressure at the human scale. We have removed a good chunk of selection pressure, and there's nothing wrong with that.

Selection pressure, however, is still a very real phenomenon for the micro-biology inhabiting and interacting with our bodies.

Re:How settling Mars could create a new human species by s_kilk on Tuesday November 08, 2016 @12:50PM (#12902355)
> martian dating apps that requires putting their DNA sequences online

Hmm, as long as the separate species are still physically compatible *cough, I don't see why that would be necessary, at least in the context of dating/hookups.

For breeding? Sure.

Re:How settling Mars could create a new human species by zardo on Tuesday November 08, 2016 @12:44PM (#12902296)
We wont be colonizing Mars in a future where we can't email and print a genome.