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Re:We’re Scientists, Moms, And We Avoid Non-GMO Products by dasil003 on Monday November 07, 2016 @01:15PM (#12893371)
The tricky thing is it's very hard to really be on top of all the evidence, so we rely on some signaling. The "granola" crowd tends to place unearned trust in organic or non-GMO products, but the "science" crowd tends to place unearned trust in methodologically suspect corporate studies with a clear conflict of interest.

I'm pretty much right down the middle on this stuff, but I tend to regard the latter as a bigger problem simply because the amount of money and lobbying involved. Think of the amount of money to be made by increasing grain yields by 1%, can we really expect industry to determine objectively that a higher yield grain is nutritionally equivalent?

Re:We’re Scientists, Moms, And We Avoid Non-GMO Products by jernfrost on Monday November 07, 2016 @02:05PM (#12893864)
I think that is unfair to the science crowd. I consider myself part of them, and I am highly suspicious of corporate interests.

Of course with the commercialization of public institutions and the insane pressure to publish, one can not trust scientific publications as well as before. What is it 60% of life science publications can't be reproduced?

There is a real need for change in system, so we can trust research more. I think the capitalistic thinking has ruined science. One looks at science as some production process which needs to increase yield. Thus one ends up focusing on quantity rather than quality.

I'd rather see a lot fewer publications and stuff of actual quality which can be reproduced than what is going on now.

Re:We’re Scientists, Moms, And We Avoid Non-GMO Products by tonmoy on Monday November 07, 2016 @01:53PM (#12893733)
In regards to organic produce, imagine how much money the producer can make by charging a lot extra. Organic does not necessarily mean better for health or environment, in fact in some cases organic may be even be worse

https://www.ocf.berkeley.edu/~lhom/organictext.html

Re:We’re Scientists, Moms, And We Avoid Non-GMO Products by pbhjpbhj on Monday November 07, 2016 @04:16PM (#12895201)
>Organic does not necessarily mean better for health or environment //

I don't see how you can say that for the later case - most of the requirements mentioned here (for example) http://ec.europa.eu/agriculture/organic/index_en for Organic food seem like they would be better for the environment.

In take of less potent and lower quantities of non-food chemicals used as pesticides, herbicides and reduced presence of antibiotics seem like things that would lead to better human health (either directly or indirectly) too.

Can you explain how focus on a local supply chain, say, as one element of Organic farming practice is detrimental to either of those things, [human] health or environment?

Re:We’re Scientists, Moms, And We Avoid Non-GMO Products by tropo on Monday November 07, 2016 @05:08PM (#12895669)
Example: some GMO crops are more tolerant of compacted soil and weed competition, reducing the need to till the soil. Tilling the soil requires enormous amounts of diesel fuel, with obvious bad environmental implications. By reducing the use of diesel, the GMO crops help the environment.

Oh, you don't even have to accept global warming to see how using diesel to till the soil can cause harm. Particulate matter in the air is really harmful. (both the diesel exhaust and the soil getting churned up into the air) Disturbed soil runs off into streams, leading to dead zones. Competition for crude oil seems to support war, which has lots of bad effects on the environment.

So... eat GMO to save the environment.

Re:We’re Scientists, Moms, And We Avoid Non-GMO Products by MustrumRidcully on Monday November 07, 2016 @06:45PM (#12896354)
Tilling the soil is not needed if you practice organic permaculture farming.
Re:We’re Scientists, Moms, And We Avoid Non-GMO Products by tropo on Monday November 07, 2016 @07:03PM (#12896452)
That way we get reduced productivity, meaning we need to devote more land to crops and less to wilderness or whatever. Also, what you can do in a labor-intensive garden is not going to produce affordable food for billions.
Re:We’re Scientists, Moms, And We Avoid Non-GMO Products by tonmoy on Monday November 07, 2016 @08:30PM (#12896880)
From the source I have given:

> A recent study compared the effectiveness of a rotenone-pyrethrin mixture versus a synthetic pesticide, imidan. Rotenone and pyrethrin are two common organic pesticides; imidan is considered a "soft" synthetic pesticide (i.e., designed to have a brief lifetime after application, and other traits that minimize unwanted effects). It was found that up to 7 applications of the rotenone- pyrethrin mixture were required to obtain the level of protection provided by 2 applications of imidan.

> It seems unlikely that 7 applications of rotenone and pyrethrin are really better for the environment than 2 applications of imidan, especially when rotenone is extremely toxic to fish and other aquatic life.

I know it is anecdotal evidence, but organic farmers would not care if the fertilizer/pesticide made from mined minerals are better/worse for the environment or not as long as it passes the "organic" criteria. A rather more useful criteria IMO would be "relatively harmless to the environment"

Re:We’re Scientists, Moms, And We Avoid Non-GMO Products by Dylan16807 on Tuesday November 08, 2016 @01:29AM (#12898147)
> Can you explain how focus on a local supply chain, say, as one element of Organic farming practice is detrimental to either of those things, [human] health or environment?

http://freakonomics.com/2011/11/14/the-inefficiency-of-local...

"Forsaking comparative advantage in agriculture by localizing means it will take more inputs to grow a given quantity of food, including more land and more chemicals—all of which come at a cost of carbon emissions."

Re:We’re Scientists, Moms, And We Avoid Non-GMO Products by weberc2 on Monday November 07, 2016 @02:06PM (#12893877)
You talk like the "GMO industry" unilaterally makes decisions. They put out studies, these studies can be (and are) critiqued by public scientists. Further, no "industry" is charged with regulating the quality and safety of our food--that's the job of the FDA. The science camp is at least making evidence-based decisions, whereas the "granola" folks are dismissing everything for fear of hypothetical methodological errors (all the while ignoring that the organic food industry is still an industry complete with its own incentives). As far as I'm concerned, this debate is a mirror of the vaccination debate or the climate debate with (perhaps) lower stakes.
Re:We’re Scientists, Moms, And We Avoid Non-GMO Products by curun1r on Monday November 07, 2016 @09:21PM (#12897091)
> this debate is a mirror of the vaccination debate

The two seem to be polar opposites to me. In the case of vaccines, you have thousands of years of history that demonstrates the danger of diseases and recent history showing how effective vaccines are. Those arguing against vaccines need to show serious harm caused before it would cancel out the benefits.

In the case of GMO foods, history argues against the technology. We know that non-GMO food is healthy. We have thousands of years of evidence to support that fact. The problems GMO are solving are on the producer's side, not the consumer's.

You can argue that the problem being solved is providing enough food to feed everyone and that history also shows the devastating effects of famine and starvation, but there are other ways to solve that problem that have none of the risks of GMO foods (less reliance on meats, for example, would make much more efficient use of our agricultural resources). Show me an alternative way of dealing with measles, flu, tetanus, hep and all the other illnesses we vaccinate that's even half as effective as vaccines and I'll concede that the two debates are similar.

Re:We’re Scientists, Moms, And We Avoid Non-GMO Products by hexane360 on Tuesday November 08, 2016 @02:19AM (#12898324)
In the case of GMOs, history absolutely argues for the technology.

If you don't believe in the safety of "unnatural" foods, you'll need to stop eating corn, bananas, beef, pork, and any other domesticated plant or animal. Recent history has shown that GMOs are much more precise and effective at domesticating plants for our purposes.

Re:We’re Scientists, Moms, And We Avoid Non-GMO Products by dasil003 on Monday November 07, 2016 @03:00PM (#12894456)
Why are you quoting "GMO industry" when that's not even a phrase I used?
Re:We’re Scientists, Moms, And We Avoid Non-GMO Products by weberc2 on Monday November 07, 2016 @06:40PM (#12896320)
I put it in quotes because I'm not sure if this is a recognized term or if I just coined it. I didn't intend to misrepresent you, but I can see how it could be read as such. Apologies.
Re:We’re Scientists, Moms, And We Avoid Non-GMO Products by drvdevd on Monday November 07, 2016 @01:21PM (#12893431)
Your comment gave me an interesting thought: how would a labeling system that describes exactly which modifications were made to the organism in question work?
Re:We’re Scientists, Moms, And We Avoid Non-GMO Products by blacksmith_tb on Monday November 07, 2016 @01:43PM (#12893632)
There current argument du jour about GM has to do with things like the Arctic apple, which doesn't turn brown when it's sliced, due to silencing several genes[1] - this sidesteps the usual "but now there are fish genes in my tomato!" as nothing has been added, just removed.

1: http://www.arcticapples.com/how-did-we-make-nonbrowning-appl...

Re:We’re Scientists, Moms, And We Avoid Non-GMO Products by gnud on Monday November 07, 2016 @06:10PM (#12896114)
But.. there's no "save the earth" argument for this GMO modification, just a mild convenience.

I achieve the same thing by slicing apples with ceramic instead of metal. Think of how much I saved on R&D!

Re:We’re Scientists, Moms, And We Avoid Non-GMO Products by dothts on Tuesday November 08, 2016 @04:33AM (#12898860)
I think the non-browning modification also helps protect the apples during transportation, which in turn reduces waste (since fewer apples will reach the store in a damaged, non-consumer friendly state). Reducing waste _is_ "saving the earth" :)
Re:We’re Scientists, Moms, And We Avoid Non-GMO Products by drvdevd on Monday November 07, 2016 @03:03PM (#12894487)
Interesting post, thanks. This certainly begs the questions of if/how it would be possible to concisely (or even not so concisely) convey this information to consumers.
Re:We’re Scientists, Moms, And We Avoid Non-GMO Products by texuf on Monday November 07, 2016 @01:48PM (#12893686)
This work for me. Why do all the rebuttals here consist of throwing hands in air and exhaspirating, "Where will it end?" We are talking about the future of our food and the huge profits that stand to be made. We should never stop testing these products.
Re:We’re Scientists, Moms, And We Avoid Non-GMO Products by thefalcon on Monday November 07, 2016 @01:41PM (#12893614)
And where does it end? What if the main product isn't GMO, but some small part of the additives in the product were GMO?
Re:We’re Scientists, Moms, And We Avoid Non-GMO Products by drvdevd on Monday November 07, 2016 @02:20PM (#12894038)
To be quite clear, personally I'm 100% pro-GMO. But that's because I believe the benefits that can be realized outweigh the risks. However, in this case I'm simply curious from both a packaging/product design and regulatory point of view: how would this work? I agree it would have to stop somewhere.

Part of my biggest issue is that a company can patent the gene modifications they make and then say, "You're eating our proprietary cucumber now." I understand their business model, but I think if anything should be "open source", it should be our food.

Re:We’re Scientists, Moms, And We Avoid Non-GMO Products by sampo on Monday November 07, 2016 @06:10PM (#12896116)
> Part of my biggest issue is that a company can patent the gene modifications they make

Also the results of non-GMO breeding can be, and have been patented.

Re:We’re Scientists, Moms, And We Avoid Non-GMO Products by hx87 on Monday November 07, 2016 @03:53PM (#12894955)
> but I tend to regard the latter as a bigger problem simply because the amount of money and lobbying involved

As the current US presidential election has shown, when money and lobbying collides with emotions and FUD, the latter wins every time, and thus I consider the latter a bigger problem.

Re:We’re Scientists, Moms, And We Avoid Non-GMO Products by BurningFrog on Monday November 07, 2016 @10:58PM (#12897505)
Think of all the lives to be saved by increasing grain yields by 1%.