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Re:Why America Needs India’s Rockets by avar on Thursday November 03, 2016 @10:16AM (#12864078)
This is because any mature rocket technology can trivially be adjusted to be a nuclear weapons delivery platform. By assisting India you're paying for their ICBM development.

Maybe the line shouldn't be drawn at rockets, but unless you think we should have free & open markets for nuclear weapons I daresay you think the line should be drawn somewhere.

Re:Why America Needs India’s Rockets by phkahler on Thursday November 03, 2016 @11:03AM (#12864507)
>> This is because any mature rocket technology can trivially be adjusted to be a nuclear weapons delivery platform.

There is also the issue of maintaining the capability domestically. If someone else is too cheap it would destroy the local capability. Imagine the US losing the ability to launch it's own satellites - like it lost the ability to launch people.

That said, there needs to be a way to make domestic launches competitive, so helping SpaceX or others while blocking foreign competition seem like a good idea all around. The goal should be to maintain domestic capability while hindering foreign nukes - not to maintain some company monopoly.

Re:Why America Needs India’s Rockets by dharmach on Thursday November 03, 2016 @11:18AM (#12864668)
On the other side, Lockheed Martin which already builds C-130J Super Hercules in India, now wants to manufacture F-16 too in India.
Re:Why America Needs India’s Rockets by azernik on Thursday November 03, 2016 @12:56PM (#12865708)
It builds the empennages in India, for integration with the full assembly in the US.

And in any case both of those are less sensitive technologies - a transport plane that other countries sell equivalents to, and a previous-generation fighter plane for which India is in any case the largest expected purchaser (the production lines in the US are being wound down, and the move to India would be part of a purchase by the IAF), and to etch the US has already approved sales.

We wouldn't sell India a Minuteman, so we're sure as hell not going to find their development of an equivalent.

Re:Why America Needs India’s Rockets by afterburner on Thursday November 03, 2016 @09:53PM (#12869773)
F-16's are old tech, which the US has been selling to its allies for decades. This helps finance continuing improvement, which keeps the US equipped with the best new military tech.
Re:Why America Needs India’s Rockets by kevin_thibedeau on Thursday November 03, 2016 @07:28PM (#12869047)
> Imagine the US losing the ability to launch it's own satellites - like it lost the ability to launch people.

We came pretty close to that brink after not bothering to invest in our own engine development. Makes the quarterly reports look great though.

Re:Why America Needs India’s Rockets by drzaiusapelord on Thursday November 03, 2016 @11:34AM (#12864820)
> like it lost the ability to launch people.

The US has not remotely lost the ability to launch people in the context you're suggesting (lost knowledge, lost budget, lost political will). Its literally between launch systems. No knowledge or budget has been lost. On top of it, its doing what no other nation seems able to do, spark a space race between corporations with their own goals and cost-cutting measures. That's on top of NASA's incredible record of space science missions and robotic missions in the interim.

As far as the RD-180 issue goes, ULA buys those engines and re-packages them into domestic launch vehicles that create domestic jobs and keep the majority of the profits local. There's a big difference both practically and politically between this and having a foreign company launch your satellites. So India is not being treated that differently here.

That said, RD-180 purchasing is being phased out. The Delta IV is being retired and that only leaves the Atlas V, which I believe is no longer allowed to buy new engines since an earlier sale this year. That's on top of the Pentagon approving $162m to help fund the AR1 and BE-4 engines which will ultimately replace the RD-180 for the ULA.

Re:Why America Needs India’s Rockets by Animats on Thursday November 03, 2016 @02:02PM (#12866350)
The US has not remotely lost the ability to launch people in the context you're suggesting (lost knowledge, lost budget, lost political will). Its literally between launch systems.

NASA has failed at how many launch system projects since the Space Shuttle?

Re:Why America Needs India’s Rockets by sithadmin on Thursday November 03, 2016 @04:46PM (#12867789)
I'm not sure it counts as 'failing' when programs are under-funded, then de-funded entirely.
Re:Why America Needs India’s Rockets by srean on Thursday November 03, 2016 @11:38PM (#12870186)
That's the point. A budget that looks underfunded to NASA is looks fantastically lavish in the context of ISRO (the Indian counterpart to NASA).
Re:Why America Needs India’s Rockets by NeutronBoy on Thursday November 03, 2016 @06:22PM (#12868555)
In a startup failing and iterating is a goal. Why should this be different in a government organisation?

(Assuming you learn from your failures)

Re:Why America Needs India’s Rockets by turar on Thursday November 03, 2016 @07:09PM (#12868921)
If you could before, and can't now, isn't that pretty much a definition of "losing it"?
Re:Why America Needs India’s Rockets by kerbalspacepro on Thursday November 03, 2016 @02:33PM (#12866634)
Two.
Re:Why America Needs India’s Rockets by rajathagasthya on Thursday November 03, 2016 @11:17AM (#12864656)
> By assisting India you're paying for their ICBM development

India is now part of MCTR (Missile Control Technology Regime) that limits ICBM development. So that's no longer a valid concern. Also, India has done well without the assistance of the US in space technology and will continue to do so. So if the US doesn't want to assist in technology, it's not going to be a show stopper for India. It will continue to eat at the small satellite launch business.

Re:Why America Needs India’s Rockets by LeifCarrotson on Thursday November 03, 2016 @11:49AM (#12864986)
> India is now part of MCTR (Missile Control Technology Regime) that limits ICBM development. So that's no longer a valid concern.

That's regime sounds like a great intent, but the simple fact is that taking a satellite launching rocket, replacing the satellite with a nuke, and aiming it back at the ground somewhere is trivial.

Re:Why America Needs India’s Rockets by mthiesen on Thursday November 03, 2016 @04:23PM (#12867599)
A typical liquid fueled satellite launching platform would make a very poor ICBM. Liquid fueled rockets can't be stored fully fueled. The fuel is extremely volatile and slowly seeps out of the tanks. This means you have to store it empty, adding a huge launch delay.

ICBMs use much more stable fuels so they can sit in a silo for years on end. This requires totally different engines and fuel tanks.

tldr: You can't just stick a nuke on top of a liquid fueled rocket and use it like an ICBM.

Re:Why America Needs India’s Rockets by dangerbird2 on Thursday November 03, 2016 @05:07PM (#12867966)
Some liquid fueled rockets can be used more-or-less effectively as an ICBM. Despite being extremely volatile, rocket engines powered by hypergolic and room-temperature liquid fuels/oxidizer mixes can be stored fueled in silos for long periods of time. The notable example of this is the Titan II (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGM-25C_Titan_II) whiched served as the primary ICBM for the U.S. for 20-odd years (with some mishaps)
Re:Why America Needs India’s Rockets by mthiesen on Thursday November 03, 2016 @07:22PM (#12869009)
Yeah, I may have spoke too soon. After reading up on the India's PSLV rocket, it doesn't appear to use any cryogenic fuels or oxidizers. Maybe it could be used as an ICBM...
Re:Why America Needs India’s Rockets by rtkwe on Thursday November 03, 2016 @04:36PM (#12867712)
You can't use it as a deterrence/defensive ICBM because of the liquid fuels but it's still very viable as an offensive ICBM because you could just fuel it up when you're about to launch. It's not particularly practical but it's a viable make due if you've been unable to design a more normal ICBM.
Re:Why America Needs India’s Rockets by rajathagasthya on Thursday November 03, 2016 @02:24PM (#12866544)
But India has already done that. They're not at a nascent stage that they need help, they already have a fully functional nuclear program with working ICMBs.
Re:Why America Needs India’s Rockets by tn13 on Thursday November 03, 2016 @03:04PM (#12866942)
You are underestimating how much importance world politicians give to pieces of paper that mean shit for commonsense. Do you think it is hard for a country like India to send a small nuke to USA and blow it off ? They can send it via ship, commercial jets and what not.

The point of MCTR is to prevent a nation from openly admitting they have such a weapon and hence it can not be used as an argument in any future negotiations.

Re:Why America Needs India’s Rockets by LeifCarrotson on Thursday November 03, 2016 @07:05PM (#12868888)
The issue isn't India performing a terrorist strike agains the US. They'd love to send nuclear missiles to Pakistan, though.
Re:Why America Needs India’s Rockets by kapilkaisare on Thursday November 03, 2016 @09:48PM (#12869756)
They can already do this, and they don't thanks to

1) Their no-first-use policy

2) Pakistan already having nuclear weapons

Re:Why America Needs India’s Rockets by tn13 on Friday November 04, 2016 @05:58PM (#12876504)
US money that funded Osama, current money that ends up funding Pak Army/ISI seems to be a lot greater factors in destabilization of Pakistan than anything India has ever done.

For example I never understood USA providing F16s to Pakistan. It is nothing but USA's attempts to escalate the tensions.

Re:Why America Needs India’s Rockets by tn13 on Friday November 04, 2016 @05:54PM (#12876475)
And India needs ICBM for that ? If India wants to wipe out Pakistan off the map it is perhaps the easiest things to do than developing some nuke technology.
Re:Why America Needs India’s Rockets by hyperbovine on Thursday November 03, 2016 @12:09PM (#12865202)
It's doable, not trivial. Tying your shoe laces is trivial.
Re:Why America Needs India’s Rockets by sqeaky on Thursday November 03, 2016 @12:24PM (#12865359)
You are mixing perspectives.

Trivial for a nation-state is different than trivial for a person. A nation like India could accidentally lose the amount of money required to hire a team of 20 to do the engineering to mount a working nuke to a working rocket.

Intentionally paying and assembling that same team would be trivial for a nation like India, USA, China or Russia. It could be as simple as a single line item on some military spending bill.

Re:Why America Needs India’s Rockets by wcarron on Thursday November 03, 2016 @12:22PM (#12865349)
I think he meant that relative to the difficulty of actually creating a platform for accurate delivery of payloads to space, changing out the payload is, in fact, trivial
Re:Why America Needs India’s Rockets by hyperbovine on Thursday November 03, 2016 @12:29PM (#12865416)
Thanks, I'm well aware of what he meant. Rockets have very specific requirements in terms of payload weight and shape. So do nukes. Matching the two would take actual engineering effort. Enough that I may not be possible to do so in total secrecy. Which is what this thread was originally talking about.
Re:Why America Needs India’s Rockets by sqeaky on Thursday November 03, 2016 @12:27PM (#12865390)
A treaty will not save the city erased in such and attack.

A treaty does provide a way for bureaucrats and ambassadors to meddle with, discuss and possibly prevent that attack in advance... if they know about it.

Mounting a working nuke to a working rocket can easily be done in secret by a small team.

Re:Why America Needs India’s Rockets by M_Grey on Thursday November 03, 2016 @01:10PM (#12865846)
They're also one of the two countries still in a nuclear deadlock with their fingers on the "button". Lets be realistic about this.
Re:Why America Needs India’s Rockets by vkou on Thursday November 03, 2016 @02:50PM (#12866801)
The United States and Russia have been in a nuclear deadlock since both sides got their hands on ICBMs.

Neither adhere to a no-first-use doctrine. That means that they reserve the right to scorch the world with nuclear fire, in response to an attack by conventional weapons.

It's hard to pin down exactly how disproportionate this level of hubris is.

Re:Why America Needs India’s Rockets by M_Grey on Thursday November 03, 2016 @03:04PM (#12866944)
Maybe it's the decades of arms reductions, the diplomatic relations, and the lack of a highly disputed border area which periodically erupts into violence?

But no... it must just be a double standard... if you squint hard enough.

Re:Why America Needs India’s Rockets by vkou on Thursday November 03, 2016 @03:53PM (#12867365)
As opposed to decades of proxy wars, sponsoring terrorism, election-dependent schizophrenia on the part of the Department of State, and much larger weapon arsenals?

The decades of arms reductions still put the arsenals of either the US, or Russia at ~10 times that of India and Pakistan combined.

At least India has a no-first-use policy. I'm not saying things are better in that conflict, but this is the pot calling the kettle black.

Re:Why America Needs India’s Rockets by M_Grey on Thursday November 03, 2016 @06:32PM (#12868637)
That's a whole lot of red herrings there, which have nothing to do with nuclear policy or not wanting to empower one side of an ongoing nuclear standoff with superior tech.

It does at least tell anyone with a scrap of skepticism though, where you're coming from. Equivocation is at the heart of apologism.

Re:Why America Needs India’s Rockets by vkou on Thursday November 03, 2016 @06:40PM (#12868714)
All of these things are incredibly relevant. Over the years, US-Russian relations have fluctuated between begrudging tolerance, open contempt, proxy wars, and even nuclear brinksmanship.

While the odds of nuclear conflict between them may be lower then the odds of one between India and Pakistan (And this is an arguable point), it will be incredibly more devastating.

As such, it's incredibly disingenuous to claim that New Delhi has it's thumb on the doomsday button, but that Moscow or Washington don't.

Re:Why America Needs India’s Rockets by M_Grey on Thursday November 03, 2016 @07:36PM (#12869110)
Except that you reversed the order of that list, which is in fact just the deescalation away from nuclear brinksmanship.

As for devastation, http://climate.envsci.rutgers.edu/pdf/RobockToonSciAmJan2010...

Re:Why America Needs India’s Rockets by rajathagasthya on Thursday November 03, 2016 @04:12PM (#12867515)
> nuclear deadlock with their fingers on the "button"

So much sensationalism in this comment! It's like watching a sensationalist news channel. Anyone who follows India-Pakistan politics know that nuclear war is unlikely. Neither of them can afford another war.

The "realistic" situation is that unless nuclear weapons end up in the hands of terrorists in Pakistan, there is no real nuclear threat.

Re:Why America Needs India’s Rockets by M_Grey on Thursday November 03, 2016 @06:32PM (#12868649)
Maybe I'm just cynical, but that sounds like PR to me.
Re:Why America Needs India’s Rockets by tn13 on Thursday November 03, 2016 @02:57PM (#12866879)
American outlook on this issue needs a more pragmatic rethink in my opinion.

India will build any technology that it needs given sufficient time and money. Time is not something that USA has anymore. It's global influence is only going go down with time.

At least in my opinion it makes lot more sense for USA to see India as a potential borrowed knife/insurance against China and help her have good defense capabilities as well as build strong economic ties across all possible avenues.

It appears that trade and economic exchange is a much more important factor to avoid full scale war than anything else.

Re:Why America Needs India’s Rockets by zeusk on Thursday November 03, 2016 @02:45PM (#12866760)
It's funny how US is okay with providing India with Uranium, but space launch contracts? Oh no! They could build ICBMs with that tech!
Re:Why America Needs India’s Rockets by xorxornop on Friday November 04, 2016 @01:54AM (#12870642)
AFAIK, they only sold un-enriched uranium. If so, you may not be aware, but enriching uranium is NOT a trivial process.

If you can enrich uranium then you can build an ICBM - it takes a lot of good engineering talent and very expensive equipment for either project. Unless you can somehow get another state to sell you the necessary stuff... but I'd consider purchasing uranium enrichment centrifuges vs purchasing ICBMs to be similarly highly-sketchy endeavours (the ICBM more so, but only because it can be used more or less immediately).

Re:Why America Needs India’s Rockets by zeusk on Friday November 04, 2016 @04:39AM (#12871115)
you may not be aware, but India has also been enriching uranium since 1980s.
Re:Why America Needs India’s Rockets by RodericDay on Thursday November 03, 2016 @11:31AM (#12864800)
The terms set by the US government all have to do with pricing:

http://spacenews.com/customers-of-indias-pslv-rocket-say-ind...

I think the idea that it's primarily a security concern is very misleading.

Protectionism can always, always be framed as a matter of national security.

Re:Why America Needs India’s Rockets by ameen on Thursday November 03, 2016 @01:43PM (#12866170)
Imagine a world without nuclear weapons. We could progress so much further by combining mankind's efforts rather than limiting our potential because of "security constraints".
Re:Why America Needs India’s Rockets by webkike on Thursday November 03, 2016 @02:56PM (#12866874)
Huh. Reminds me of the plot of metal gear solid 3.