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A comment on Emacs standing alone on a Linux Kernel (2004).

Re:Emacs standing alone on a Linux Kernel (2004) by anon4711 on Wednesday November 02, 2016 @12:49PM (#12856773)
PJB has become a bit (too little for my taste) of a persona non grata in the common lisp world (which has a large overlap with the emacs world) ever since it was suggested and so far not disproved (names match, nicknames match) that he's the person behind https://twitter.com/ogamita

edit: To make it more precise, full names are identical and http://www.informatimago.com/index.html links to http://pjb.ogamita.org which uses the same name (ogamita) as that twitter account.

[ Parent | on HN ]
Re:Emacs standing alone on a Linux Kernel (2004) by omginternets on Wednesday November 02, 2016 @01:08PM (#12857001)
I dislike holocaust-deniers as much as the next guy, but I find it troubling that one's political opinions should prevent us from considering a person's work in a distinct domain. This is especially true in the present case: I see no evidence that PJB has crossed the Hitler stream with the common lisp stream.

People can be smart and respectable in one domain and stupid in another.

[ Parent | on HN ]
Re:Emacs standing alone on a Linux Kernel (2004) by anon4711 on Wednesday November 02, 2016 @04:57PM (#12859200)
A person can be smart in one domain and stupid in another, so much is clear (think Grothendieck in maths and politics)

But a person cannot be both respectable and disrespectable at the same time, I find, although I'm afraid now we might be disagreeing rather about words than ideas. Respectability, to me, is a compliment to somebody's set of values.

[ Parent | on HN ]
Re:Emacs standing alone on a Linux Kernel (2004) by omginternets on Thursday November 03, 2016 @01:47PM (#12866214)
I agree, but the point was rather about censorship.

I find it troubling that we should censor (explicitly or otherwise) someone on accounts of his respectability. I find this especially true when the source of disrespectability stems from an unrelated topic.

[ Parent | on HN ]
Re:Emacs standing alone on a Linux Kernel (2004) by Retra on Wednesday November 02, 2016 @07:16PM (#12860267)
On the other hand, the influence that people have tends to be blind to how they previously acquired that influence. It's a very common problem in politics: you put power on someone due to their credentials in one area, and they suddenly have power they don't deserve in a completely different domain.
[ Parent | on HN ]
Re:Emacs standing alone on a Linux Kernel (2004) by ricksplat on Thursday November 03, 2016 @05:39AM (#12862571)
"Once the rockets are up, who cares where they come down That's not my department," says Wernher von Braun

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5V7me25aNtI

[ Parent | on HN ]
Re:Emacs standing alone on a Linux Kernel (2004) by omginternets on Thursday November 03, 2016 @01:45PM (#12866199)
That's totally missing the point.

We can both condemn the stupid/wrong behavior and celebrate the intellectual achievements. The point is that we shouldn't hold back our praise of the latter on account of the former.

This is a typical false-dichotomy that plagues contemporary discourse around social justice and various *isms.

[ Parent | on HN ]
Re:Emacs standing alone on a Linux Kernel (2004) by ricksplat on Thursday November 03, 2016 @03:55PM (#12867376)
I don't agree. Many wouldn't.
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Re:Emacs standing alone on a Linux Kernel (2004) by omginternets on Thursday November 03, 2016 @08:56PM (#12869554)
Hardly an argument, though.

If we abided by your reasoning, the US wouldn't have a space program.

[ Parent | on HN ]
Re:Emacs standing alone on a Linux Kernel (2004) by ricksplat on Friday November 04, 2016 @02:06AM (#12870677)
What's there to argue about? You think you're right and I think you're wrong.
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Re:Emacs standing alone on a Linux Kernel (2004) by oldmanjay on Wednesday November 02, 2016 @01:59PM (#12857537)
This is especially important to keep in mind because there is no way to shun a person and change their mind on the opinion that led to their shunning. Only engagement does that.
[ Parent | on HN ]
Re:Emacs standing alone on a Linux Kernel (2004) by anon4711 on Wednesday November 02, 2016 @05:04PM (#12859255)
There are two sides to this and I think they're important to distinguish: If the person in question was wrongfully accused, this could do undeserved damage to him. This would be a misfortune (albeit not a great one given how little activity my comment generated) but I'm currently sufficiently convinced this won't happen that I went ahead and posted the comment.

The other matter is rehabilitation. Whether he should be allowed to apologise at some point, say that he made a mistake, and be welcomed back, is something that you cannot decide for everyone. It's up to your personal beliefs, in particular your religion. Everybody needs to determine that for him- or herself, in my opinion.

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Re:Emacs standing alone on a Linux Kernel (2004) by rsaarelm on Wednesday November 02, 2016 @03:02PM (#12858172)
Ah, same guy as the one with probably the most infamous comp.lang.lisp post ever https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/comp.lang.lisp/iKNvs...
[ Parent | on HN ]
Re:Emacs standing alone on a Linux Kernel (2004) by bluefox on Wednesday November 02, 2016 @11:53PM (#12861480)
Thank you for this post. I had technical interaction with him in the past, and read many of his technical posts. But I did not know this. I will no longer interact with him.
[ Parent | on HN ]
Re:Emacs standing alone on a Linux Kernel (2004) by AceJohnny2 on Wednesday November 02, 2016 @08:26PM (#12860623)
Hm, I wonder if there's something similar to what's happened with Terry A. Davis, author of what's been renamed to TempleOS [1]. He became schizophrenic, and has become less and less coherent over time. He used to have an account here, but either I can't remember it or it's been deleted: most of his posts were of the vile variety.

There was an extensive profile of him on Motherboard [2]

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TempleOS

[2] http://motherboard.vice.com/read/gods-lonely-programmer

[ Parent | on HN ]
Re:Emacs standing alone on a Linux Kernel (2004) by AlexeyBrin on Wednesday November 02, 2016 @08:41PM (#12860689)
You don't need to have a mental illness to be extreme right like https://twitter.com/ogamita seems to be.
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Re:Emacs standing alone on a Linux Kernel (2004) by kazinator on Friday November 04, 2016 @01:08AM (#12870520)
"ogamita" is an obvious palindrome of the "atimago" suffix of "informatimago".
[ Parent | on HN ]
Re:Emacs standing alone on a Linux Kernel (2004) by agumonkey on Wednesday November 02, 2016 @02:50PM (#12858024)
Because his retweeting the hitler glorifying documentary ? Did he talk about holocaust or revisionism online ?
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Re:Emacs standing alone on a Linux Kernel (2004) by anon4711 on Wednesday November 02, 2016 @04:45PM (#12859088)
Please scroll further. I understand that some of it is French but you should notice rather quickly nonetheless that this did not just happen on a single occasion. Essentially everything he writes fits into the narrative of #whitegenocide
[ Parent | on HN ]
Re:Emacs standing alone on a Linux Kernel (2004) by agumonkey on Wednesday November 02, 2016 @04:54PM (#12859177)
I did dig in his tweets quite a lot, found many retweets of this pro-hitler account, also French extreme right parties, among normal right wing tweets. But all are retweets, no written ones, no debate, no long trolling. I also searched on google for mention of his nicks with hitler | holocaust | denier | ... and found nothing. If he did express disturbing views he did this on non indexed platforms.

I am surprised because I spent a lot of times on irc near lisp related (scheme, guile, emacs, so strictly speaking no CL, CLOS, lisp) channels and never heard bad mentions about him. Now I agree that this twitter account seems quite linked and probably pjb, but I can't decide anything based on just that.

[ Parent | on HN ]
Re:Emacs standing alone on a Linux Kernel (2004) by anon4711 on Wednesday November 02, 2016 @05:06PM (#12859266)
His projects were removed from quicklisp in September (see e.g. http://blog.quicklisp.org/2016/09/september-2016-quicklisp-d...) over this matter.
[ Parent | on HN ]
Re:Emacs standing alone on a Linux Kernel (2004) by agumonkey on Wednesday November 02, 2016 @05:11PM (#12859314)
That's a bit more telling. Are there any discussions on a mailing list ? or was is on irc and now lost ?
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Re:Emacs standing alone on a Linux Kernel (2004) by anon4711 on Wednesday November 02, 2016 @05:15PM (#12859364)
Please start with this log entry

> 2016-09-29T23:57:32Z Xach: I dropped com.informatimago because I do not want to have to discuss anything with pjb again. I have never enjoyed discussing anything previously, but his vile twitter feed drove me over the edge, and his project no longer builds, so I don't want to report problems or discuss solutions.

from here: http://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/lisp/lisp-2016-09.txt

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Re:Emacs standing alone on a Linux Kernel (2004) by lispm on Wednesday November 02, 2016 @05:28PM (#12859460)
on comp.lang.lisp he called the concentration camps 'a details in the history of WWII' and 'Then they killed in these camps less people than for example the International Socialists of the URSS and China, by two order of magnitudes!'
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Re:Emacs standing alone on a Linux Kernel (2004) by agumonkey on Wednesday November 02, 2016 @05:35PM (#12859522)
I see, classic French racist troll over historical statistics. Sad.
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