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Re:MacBook Pro by rcarmo on Thursday October 27, 2016 @03:07PM (#12808558)
Dude, I use a desktop. A Mac mini, in fact, which has been struggling for the latter half of the past 6 years.

I'm seriously considering getting a PC instead, even though I've written http://taoofmac.com for 14 years.

(I do happen to work for Microsoft, by the way, but would very much prefer to keep my home setup on a separate tech stack for the sake of keeping an open view. I'm now ogling the Skullcandy NUC and wondering how well it will run Elementary OS)

Re:MacBook Pro by SiVal on Thursday October 27, 2016 @09:28PM (#12812214)
On your blog, you wrote: As far as I’m concerned, Apple is completely out of touch with my segment (call it UNIX-centric pros, if you will), so I’m going to seriously rethink my options over the next couple of weeks.

I would guess that just here on HN there are tens of thousands of us who could describe ourselves as "Unix-centric pros", who want powerful unixy client machines that match our unixy servers and who also want all the client-side stuff everyone needs (excellent video, audio, wifi, battery mgt., etc., drivers perfectly matched to hardware and working out of the box) plus a full range of apps. We can get the unixy client from Linux, BSD, or Mac. We can get the reliable, everything works consumer client stuff from Windows or Mac. The only overlap is Mac.

Unfortunately for us, this power user unix workstation stuff is just a historical accident for Apple, not a corporate objective. They're trying to get out of the computer business so they can focus on fashionable, high-margin, designer "lifestyle" products and services for the hip ones who consume stuff, not the old drudges in the back room who make stuff.

Microsoft holds their Windows legacy so dear that they'll slap more layers on the papier-mache balloon that is Windows but never put unix at its core, and all the nifty client-side Linux systems out there seem to have the motto "before you complain, realize that how much of it ends up working depends on how smart you are".

I would wish for Google to develop a line of powerful Linux-based workstations, but they would just spy on me until Google canceled the project altogether.

I wish Apple would create a wholly-owned subsidiary called "Apple Computer, Inc." that would have access to Apple's manufacturing expertise but would build a line of computers for power users who produce stuff--computers that weren't "thinner".

Re:MacBook Pro by ralusek on Friday October 28, 2016 @01:09AM (#12813266)
Windows linux subsystem, it's legit. I tried it yesterday, it is no joke. It is full on bash in windows, running on Linux. Not in a VM.

Look into it, Microsoft released it earlier this year specifically for unix developers.

Re:MacBook Pro by tonyedgecombe on Friday October 28, 2016 @03:43AM (#12813825)
I can't see the point, I'd rather just run Linux in a VM.
Re:MacBook Pro by pjmlp on Friday October 28, 2016 @03:10AM (#12813715)
> Unfortunately for us, this power user unix workstation stuff is just a historical accident for Apple, not a corporate objective.

Many that went Apple when they showed OS X to the world, never really understood Apple, or for that matter, NeXT culture.

The POSIX layer never mattered, what mattered were the Objective-C frameworks on top and a workflow based on Xerox PARC ideas, that Steve Jobs brought to Apple and NeXT.

The UNIX compatibility was there, because NeXT was competing against Sun and Irix workstations, so it needed to be compatible to a certain extent.

Later Apple trying to promote the same compatibility because after the Copland failure, they needed to sell computers or close shop, so the UNIX with nice GUI was a way of doing it.

For those of us that develop native applications, it never really mattered.

Re:MacBook Pro by pcwalton on Friday October 28, 2016 @03:06AM (#12813702)
> Microsoft holds their Windows legacy so dear that they'll slap more layers on the papier-mache balloon that is Windows but never put unix at its core

But they just did, with Bash on Windows.

Re:MacBook Pro by SiVal on Friday October 28, 2016 @06:15AM (#12814512)
Bash on Windows isn't at all the same as Windows on Linux.

I do appreciate that they are trying to do as much as they think they can without throwing away the thing that they believe is the most valuable corporate asset they have: the mountain of stuff built over the years for Windows. They have carefully preserved this asset by making huge efforts to ensure than anything that worked on Windows in the past will keep working forever.

The thing is, what I wish they would do for me (which might not be what they need to do for themselves) is to take the equivalent of my Linux server and wrap a Windows API around it, the way a Mac is like a Linux server inside with a Mac API wrapped around it for client software usefulness. I'd be just as happy with a Windows GUI/API as a Mac GUI/API, but what I want is for it to resemble my servers under the GUI, so I can leverage whatever unixy skills and tools I may have.

Having a simulation of a unix shell on top of an NT core makes Windows more useful than it would otherwise be, but it's not the same as a Windows shell on a Linux kernel.

Re:MacBook Pro by pcwalton on Friday October 28, 2016 @10:10AM (#12815988)
> the way a Mac is like a Linux server inside with a Mac API wrapped around it for client software usefulness

No, Darwin is Mach with BSD welded to it; it is not a pure Unix design. Likewise, WSL is the NT kernel with the Linux syscall interface on top, via the Pico Process interface. The NT kernel was designed for portability; in fact, POSIX compatibility was a design goal from the early days, in contrast to Mach where the idea of mashing together Mach and BSD was never considered.

In many ways, WSL is a much cleaner design than Darwin is.

Re:MacBook Pro by verisimilidude on Thursday October 27, 2016 @03:43PM (#12809065)
I did exactly that. After using the Mac forever (started on 10.1), I got kinda fed up and made the jump to an Intel NUC with Linux. I tried Elementary OS and didn't find it to my liking. But I really really dig Fedora, specifically Gnome 3. The breadth of choice in Linux desktop environments at the moment is neat and not something I expected when I made the leap to PC.
Re:MacBook Pro by RexM on Thursday October 27, 2016 @04:02PM (#12809316)
When I was using Fedora, I was really happy with the look and feel of Gnome 3.
Re:MacBook Pro by gkop on Thursday October 27, 2016 @04:37PM (#12809789)
Gnome 3 is great - it steals the best ideas from macOS and Windows.
Re:MacBook Pro by netule on Thursday October 27, 2016 @05:18PM (#12810273)
I would love to hear more about your experiences using Intel NUC since I'm exactly leaning this way for my development machine.
Re:MacBook Pro by verisimilidude on Thursday October 27, 2016 @08:11PM (#12811672)
Sure thing. First, some details. I switched to the NUC three or four months ago as my main machine. Mine is the NUC6i5SYH model. I installed 32GB of RAM and filled both drive slots. Windows 10 is installed on one drive, Fedora 24 is installed on the other.

As long as you have no plans to play games, it's a wonderful machine for development. It's really fast for its small size, noticeably faster than the Macs I'd been using before. I spend most of my time with the NUC doing Ruby development in Fedora, with some Clojure and Node.js on the side. I've done some office type stuff with LibreOffice. I've dabbled in OpenSCAD while working on a 3D print. The NUC is more than enough power for all of that. I haven't played with Windows 10 too much, but it's also snappy when I need to boot into it.

It's a very quiet machine. On full blast, you might get a blowing sound similar to a stressed MBP. But usually in normal usage it's no more than a low hum; I can't even hear it unless I listen for it. You can throttle down the processors in the BIOS to make it nearly (totally?) silent if you like.

The most annoying thing about the NUC was installing the BIOS updates before getting started. The NUC6i5SYH had a lot of problems at launch that needed to be patched. Once I got beyond that, everything was smooth. The NUC is basically a laptop board shoved into a small box instead. If the things you want to do are possible on a laptop, they'll be possible on the NUC no problem.

Re:MacBook Pro by netule on Friday October 28, 2016 @03:11PM (#12819622)
Thanks for the response, it seems that your use case is very similar to mine (Ruby, Node.js, etc.). I actually decided to go with the i3 model with 16GB of RAM, since I don't think that I will do anything extremely demanding or graphically intense and it's super affordable to boot. I'll run elementary OS or Fedora on it, hopefully it will all work out.
Re:MacBook Pro by voltagex_ on Thursday October 27, 2016 @08:48PM (#12811867)
I wonder how Visual Studio runs on it - I am a gamer but I'm very tempted to go NUC for development and stay with the Xbox One for gaming until I can afford a proper gaming rebuild.
Re:MacBook Pro by fdiotalevi on Friday October 28, 2016 @04:40AM (#12814070)
I still use a 2010 MacBook Pro (i7 8GB RAM 256SSD) to run my IDE and all the "normal" apps (Skype, Slack, Chrome), and a NUC (NUC5i7RYH) on Ubuntu to build and run the stack.

I mostly access the NUC via SSH (and rsync my codebase between the two computers). The NUC is also connected to a monitor and I use the MacBook keyboard and mouse to drive both computers with Symless Synergy.

Re:MacBook Pro by K0SM0S on Thursday October 27, 2016 @03:44PM (#12809077)
I commend your platform agnosticism. A sane way to approach paradigm shifts in computing, imho. Which I personally extend to Android/iOS.
Re:MacBook Pro by bitL on Friday October 28, 2016 @08:46AM (#12815175)
If you are fine with dual core, get a NUC5i5 with 16GB RAM - Yosemite and higher run absolutely flawless there. Skylake NUCs are still a bit of a mess unfortunately.