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Re:“The Depressed Person” by David Foster Wallace (1998) [pdf] by lisper on Wednesday October 19, 2016 @12:26PM (#12745213)
I took a whack at IJ and got bogged down after ten pages or so. This is from TDP, not IJ, but it's illustrative:

"And the depressed person always took care, when as an adult she attempted to describe to a supportive friend the venomous struggle over the cost of her orthodonture and that struggle's legacy of emotional pain for her, to concede that it may well truly have appeared to each parent to have been, in fact, a matter of "principle," though unfortunately not a "principle" that took into account their daughter's feelings at receiving the emotional message that scoring petty points off each other was more important to her parents than her own maxillofacial health and thus constituted, if considered from a certain perspective, a form of neglect or abandonment or even outright abuse, an abuse clearly connected-here she nearly always inserted that her therapist concurred with this assessment-to the bottomless, chronic adult despair she suffered every day and felt hopelessly trapped in."

That was one sentence. There are many favorable adjectives one could reasonably apply to it, but IMHO "tight" is not one of them.

(BTW, that sentence is not an isolated example. Here's the very next sentence:

"The approximately half-dozen friends whom her therapist-who had earned both a terminal graduate degree and a medical degree-referred to as the depressed person's Support System tended to be either female acquaintances from childhood or else girls she had roomed with at various stages of her school career, nurturing and comparatively undamaged women who now lived in all manner of different cities and whom the depressed person often had not laid eyes on in years and years, and whom she called late in the evening, long-distance, for badly needed sharing and support and just a few well-chosen words to help her get some realistic perspective on the day's despair and get centered and gather together the strength to fight through the emotional agony of the next day, and to whom, when she telephoned, the depressed person always apologized for dragging them down or coming off as boring or self-pitying or repellent or taking them away from their active, vibrant, largely pain-free long-distance lives.")

Re:“The Depressed Person” by David Foster Wallace (1998) [pdf] by munificent on Wednesday October 19, 2016 @02:31PM (#12746365)
I actually love these two sentences. They perfectly drag you into a relationship with the narrator.

As the sentence drags on longer and longer, you feel the narrator trying to glean just a bit more of your focus and attention. Her unwillingness to end the sentence and give you a moment to retract and catch your breath shows how desperate she is for connection and makes you literally experience the same feelings of those around her.

All of the little qualifiers and clauses show how acutely self-conscious she is, always amending and curtailing her expression of herself. It also shows how self-aware of her own negativity she is. Many of the extra clauses go out of their way to show that she is aware of the positive aspects of things.

But that in turn just reinforces our perception of her as depressed because we see that while she is aware of all of these positive things—having a support system, the expertise of her therapist, etc.—we also know she is depressed and her depression must be profound to persist in spite of all those good things she laboriously lists.

Prose like this is exactly why writing in the first person can be so powerful. You get to read the story, and the way the narrator experiences the story, and the way the narrator chooses to tell you how they experienced the story, and the unintended (from the narrators' not author's perspective) things that sneak out around what the narrator is aware of choosing to say.

Re:“The Depressed Person” by David Foster Wallace (1998) [pdf] by lisper on Wednesday October 19, 2016 @02:39PM (#12746444)
> Prose like this is exactly why writing in the first person can be so powerful.

Indeed. And if the piece had been written in the first person I would agree with you, but it's not. It's written in the third-person.

Re:“The Depressed Person” by David Foster Wallace (1998) [pdf] by tptacek on Wednesday October 19, 2016 @02:42PM (#12746480)
If you've ever seen the movie Stranger Than Fiction, which is cutesy but good graded on the curve for cutesy movies, that's the narrative mood DFW seems to be going for: the detached narrator who is not in fact entirely detached. The third person perspective is often meant to be partially ironic, as is (when he uses it) the first person.
Re:“The Depressed Person” by David Foster Wallace (1998) [pdf] by lisper on Wednesday October 19, 2016 @02:59PM (#12746657)
Re:“The Depressed Person” by David Foster Wallace (1998) [pdf] by tptacek on Wednesday October 19, 2016 @03:00PM (#12746669)
I'd already replied to it. :)

(I'm kind of speaking in general about DFW's writing, not about this particular piece, which I am not a fan of.)

Re:“The Depressed Person” by David Foster Wallace (1998) [pdf] by munificent on Wednesday October 19, 2016 @05:06PM (#12747659)
Ha, fair point.

In this case, the viewpoint is an interesting omniscient third person where you kind of feel like you're in the head of the character, but not quite exactly. Are we reading a third-person narrative that is maintaining ironic distance from the character, or a first-person narrative where the character is referring to herself in the third person?

Re:“The Depressed Person” by David Foster Wallace (1998) [pdf] by sixo on Wednesday October 19, 2016 @11:06PM (#12749505)
On a couple occasions I've tried narrating vignettes from my own life in a detached omniscient candid way, which a) makes me feel ridiculous, like I'm making fun of myself, but b) is sort of therapeutic, like I'm forgiving myself for my head being full of stupid vanities which look very small from a little distance.

So maybe that's the angle?

Re:“The Depressed Person” by David Foster Wallace (1998) [pdf] by eastbayjake on Wednesday October 19, 2016 @12:45PM (#12745353)
I think in Infinite Jest the writing style -- not just sentences like these but jumping between text and endnotes -- gives the reader a deeper experience with his argument about attention, boredom, and the ways modern society seeks to constantly distract us. Much of his non-fiction writing explores these themes more directly and succinctly, particularly his Kenyon College commencement speech.

This particular work seems to use complex sentence structure to embody the emotional distance the depressed person feels from others, the difficulty he raises in the first sentence of expressing one's pain to others making you more isolated.

Re:“The Depressed Person” by David Foster Wallace (1998) [pdf] by lisper on Wednesday October 19, 2016 @12:55PM (#12745444)
> his Kenyon College commencement speech

Yes, I thought that was brilliant. His cruise ship review in Harpers was a lot of fun too (https://harpers.org/wp-content/uploads/2008/09/HarpersMagazi...). Maybe I'm just too aspie for his fiction.

Re:“The Depressed Person” by David Foster Wallace (1998) [pdf] by ethanbond on Wednesday October 19, 2016 @01:42PM (#12745907)
I've never been a big fiction reader, and I don't know how much time you spent trying his fiction, but I highly recommend giving Infinite Jest a shot.

I had to take a 3 month break in the middle of Infinite Jest (not recommended) and even then, finishing it was the most rewarding and somehow obscenely frustrating literary experiences I've ever had.

This accomplishment/frustration thing is also central to the book and is "the point" (really one of several). The fact that it still has that effect even when I know it was meant to is a testament to how well it worked.

Re:“The Depressed Person” by David Foster Wallace (1998) [pdf] by louprado on Wednesday October 19, 2016 @01:54PM (#12746022)
IJ is ~1100 pages and the writing style doesn't allow one to read quickly.

And while you are reading you are constantly wondering if this book is better than the 10 other books you could finish in the same amount of time. At around page 200 I concluded that it was not. But I am certainly glad I read those 200 pages.

Re:“The Depressed Person” by David Foster Wallace (1998) [pdf] by chipgap98 on Wednesday October 19, 2016 @02:41PM (#12746472)
I had a similar thought, but then a few hundred pages beyond that you get to some incredible stuff. The stories from the AA meetings and Don Gately's time in the hospital are fantastic
Re:“The Depressed Person” by David Foster Wallace (1998) [pdf] by mercer on Wednesday October 19, 2016 @03:02PM (#12746684)
Just the filmography footnote and the 'game' later on are worth getting through the initial difficult pages, in my opinion!
Re:“The Depressed Person” by David Foster Wallace (1998) [pdf] by tptacek on Wednesday October 19, 2016 @02:40PM (#12746462)
I unashamedly like IJ, even though it's a white male nerd trope to like it and is the kind of thing anti-hipster hipsters will make fun of you for.

And, having said that: it's unfortunate but you probably need to get past the first third of the book to appreciate it. And that's a high-risk endeavor, because there are legit reasons why you might never appreciate it. True believers say you actually need to read the whole thing twice; I can't make myself do that.

Re:“The Depressed Person” by David Foster Wallace (1998) [pdf] by stdgy on Wednesday October 19, 2016 @06:29PM (#12748267)
I sat in stunned disbelief for a second after finishing the book before turning back to page 1 and starting in on it again. I only read the first few chapters/vignettes again, but I could see the allure in continuing. I didn't have the structure of the characters, the institutions and their relationships cemented in my mind until the book was nearly over. And after I started in on those first few chapters, I ran across a line from Hal which was to the effect of '... and I dug up the stuff in the garden with Gately...'

And I imagine these kinds of references continue throughout the book. References whose significance I wouldn't have picked up on without having first read the book. But more generally, I don't think I've encountered a work before on which I've vacillated so much between considering it brilliant or insufferable. Maybe that's part of what I find intriguing about it.

Re:“The Depressed Person” by David Foster Wallace (1998) [pdf] by tptacek on Wednesday October 19, 2016 @06:44PM (#12748360)
I like to approach it as a very large collection of DFW essays set in a fictional universe.
Re:“The Depressed Person” by David Foster Wallace (1998) [pdf] by sixo on Wednesday October 19, 2016 @11:13PM (#12749531)
Same. DFW at least plumbed some of the psychological deep-end that I (apparently) have as a white male nerd. Such as: some confusing feelings about class and the relative merits of high- and low-brow art, and this strong un-expressed emotion (evoked in IJ chapter 1) of being fundamentally unable to make myself understood. (Not to say that I actually have anything important to say, but, on an emotional level, the sentiment is in there.)
Re:“The Depressed Person” by David Foster Wallace (1998) [pdf] by ethanbond on Wednesday October 19, 2016 @03:21PM (#12746867)
My tactic has been to read a challenge book (IJ, currently The Pale King) and then have a few easy reads to go along with it (Millennium/Girl With the Dragon Tattoo Trilogy, currently Fahrenheit 451).

When I want a book to make my head spin, I read the challenge one. When I want to end a long day of head-spinning at work, I read the easy one.

Re:“The Depressed Person” by David Foster Wallace (1998) [pdf] by digikata on Wednesday October 19, 2016 @02:07PM (#12746162)
Completely agree - IJ is one of the very very few books that I've outright stopped reading midway through. There were some very interesting aspects of how the text is constructed, but that stopped being new or contributing to the continued development/reading of the book for me to be worth continuing the slog.
Re:“The Depressed Person” by David Foster Wallace (1998) [pdf] by mercer on Wednesday October 19, 2016 @03:01PM (#12746677)
Based on my experience and that of many of the Infinite Summer readers, the first 250 pages or so are really difficult, and it (generally) gets more palatable after that.
Re:“The Depressed Person” by David Foster Wallace (1998) [pdf] by mercer on Wednesday October 19, 2016 @02:56PM (#12746627)
I can also recommend using the Infinite Summer blog as a companion. The bloggers often provide interesting viewpoints, as do the commenters, and they offer some (basic) help here and there to make the whole experience a bit more pleasant.
Re:“The Depressed Person” by David Foster Wallace (1998) [pdf] by doug1001 on Thursday October 20, 2016 @01:17AM (#12749882)
anyone who is that deep in this thread, might enjoy "The Onion" piece on DFW (http://www.theonion.com/article/girlfriend-stops-reading-dav...). It was published in 2003 (about eight years after IJ). In the hilarious article, DFW's girlfriend, receives a break up letter from DFW that is 67 pages long and which she only read the first 20 pages of. She goes to to critique his letter--eg, " 'One thing I found annoying was that you had to read all the way to the middle to figure out what things on the first page of the letter were talking about,' Thompson said. 'For instance, he kept referring to somebody named The Cackler without explanation until page 11, at which point I finally found out that The Cackler is my friend Renée' "
Re:“The Depressed Person” by David Foster Wallace (1998) [pdf] by krylon on Thursday October 20, 2016 @03:50PM (#12755509)
Thank you very much, that was awesome! :)
Re:“The Depressed Person” by David Foster Wallace (1998) [pdf] by davesque on Wednesday October 19, 2016 @01:41PM (#12745892)
Re:“The Depressed Person” by David Foster Wallace (1998) [pdf] by davesque on Wednesday October 19, 2016 @01:36PM (#12745838)
As another commenter has pointed out, maybe the pointedly run-on style of this prose is meant to reflect the ceaseless self-doubt and second-guessing that goes on in the mind of the "depressed person" such that they can't even feel secure in their ability to finish a single thought without their mind jumping off its rails. I can personally attest to that phenomenon.
Re:“The Depressed Person” by David Foster Wallace (1998) [pdf] by ZoF on Wednesday October 19, 2016 @01:49PM (#12745981)
Yep, that is exactly it.

Infinite Jest is a look into the sick self-doubting mindset that has infected the US(and other parts of the world).

I read while I was severely over-weight and 'depressed' and it was extremely validating to see the mindset so accurately reflected. I've never had a book where I can't read it without stopping if desired before(unless it's purely technical).

I couldn't get through more than 50pages/sitting for Infinite Jest.

It was pretty good.

Re:“The Depressed Person” by David Foster Wallace (1998) [pdf] by davesque on Wednesday October 19, 2016 @01:59PM (#12746079)
I've never read it but I worry that it would strike too close to home.
Re:“The Depressed Person” by David Foster Wallace (1998) [pdf] by mercer on Wednesday October 19, 2016 @03:03PM (#12746697)
It might, but for me it was therapeutic. It made me want to get out of that state of mind and go out and experience life and connect with people again.
Re:“The Depressed Person” by David Foster Wallace (1998) [pdf] by roymurdock on Wednesday October 19, 2016 @02:31PM (#12746368)
Don't let the length and structure of the sentence fool you into thinking it wasn't meticulously crafted, worked, edited, reworked, etc.

DFW is extremely "tight" in that he uses his powerful (and precocious) intellect to think about everything way, way too much. This overthinking translates into his choice of words, grammar, punctuation, what the sentence conveys, how it adds to the overall tone, and even the topics he decides to write on. It's what makes him so fun (and, sometimes, painful) to read.

He's certainly not concise, but he's one of the tightest writers I've ever read.

Re:“The Depressed Person” by David Foster Wallace (1998) [pdf] by throwanem on Wednesday October 19, 2016 @05:13PM (#12747716)
Existentialist prose is agonizing to read no matter the person in which it's written. It leaves me flabbergasted that anyone could possibly describe as 'tight' such stacks and piles and reams of words, whole paragraphs at a time of them without the leaven of a period and barely even a comma as a kindness to the reader, until one feels one's head is being slowly shoved through wallpaper paste - and in both cases one eventually comes to feel that to finally suffocate would be a mercy.

Having not looked closely before now into Infinite Jest, I think I better understand why it serves as such a pons asinorum for literary fiction in general. It takes a more than ordinarily diligent and accommodating person to get through it at all without her eyes glazing over, much less to come out the other end with any sense of what actually happened between front cover and back.

(Oh, also: "ghastlily"? Really? Far be it from me to speak ill of the dead, but...)

Re:“The Depressed Person” by David Foster Wallace (1998) [pdf] by SnacksOnAPlane on Wednesday October 19, 2016 @05:31PM (#12747877)
Honestly, most of Infinite Jest is not like that. It's only like that when you're "in the head" of certain characters.

But you have no idea what's going on in the book for the first 300 pages or so. It takes until around 500 pages in before you're immersed in the story, and then reading it becomes kind of an addiction. And once you're done, you feel an intense need to start it over again, knowing what you do now.

I only really got the theme of it on the second reading. I actually put it down for a few months the first time I tried to read it because I was confused. But it's worth it...oh man, is it worth it.

Re:“The Depressed Person” by David Foster Wallace (1998) [pdf] by throwanem on Wednesday October 19, 2016 @05:48PM (#12747996)
As I mentioned in a comment near this one, you're far from the first person in this thread to say so, and the frequency of such statements is starting to make me wonder if I haven't rushed to judgment. After all, the Illuminatus! trilogy could be described in much the same terms, and despite it taking many rereadings over something like five years to feel I really had a solid grasp on the book from beginning to end, in the end I'd have to say it was very much worth my while. (Don't get me wrong - well over 99.9% of Illuminatus! is unmitigated, top-tier, Grade A bullshit, good for fertilizer and not a whole lot else. It's just that the remainder is solid gold, five nines fine.)

In any case, I've just bought a copy of Infinite Jest, so pretty soon I'll be finding out whether I've treated it too harshly or not harshly enough.

Re:“The Depressed Person” by David Foster Wallace (1998) [pdf] by lisper on Wednesday October 19, 2016 @05:17PM (#12747751)
Now that was some well-written prose! I wish I could upvote you ten times.
Re:“The Depressed Person” by David Foster Wallace (1998) [pdf] by throwanem on Wednesday October 19, 2016 @05:28PM (#12747852)
Oh, thank you very kindly! One does one's humble best.

I do wish to note that, when I wrote the comment to which you reply, I hadn't yet read far enough into the thread to encounter the many people saying "Oh, you just have to power through the first {100,300,...} pages, and then it gets amazing!" Such claims for Infinite Jest are new to me, and it's an argument to which I'm not without sympathy; I'm forced to consider the possibility that I've judged the book too harshly, and that this may be a case where I'd be well served to suspend the usual criteria by which I decide that an author is wasting my time.

(And I have to say, that cruise review piece you linked is doing a good job winning me over, too. Thanks for that!)

Re:“The Depressed Person” by David Foster Wallace (1998) [pdf] by doug1001 on Thursday October 20, 2016 @01:08AM (#12749855)
i nearly posted an almost identical comment as you; then i thought, well this person is probably chair of the Contemporary Literature Dept at Amherst, etc. so one should expect insight like this
Re:“The Depressed Person” by David Foster Wallace (1998) [pdf] by throwanem on Friday October 21, 2016 @06:59AM (#12759424)
Not that I don't appreciate the thought, but given what I know of academia, I think I'm more horrified than flattered. The banal enormities one must no doubt both suffer and inflict, to achieve tenure in the humanities...no, thanks. If I'm to wind up in a hell of my own devising, I should at least like to hope I've the wit to make it a livelier one than that.
Re:“The Depressed Person” by David Foster Wallace (1998) [pdf] by mercer on Friday October 21, 2016 @11:33AM (#12761252)
You do have a very, uh, 'Literature Department' way of communicating though, surely you're aware of that? I figured you were doing it to make a point...

But so anyways, by all means write exactly as you feel like writing. I'm a huge fan of DFW, for example, precisely because he is all fancy and colloquial at the same time, which happens to tickle my fancy quite a bunch. I just wanted to point it out.

Re:“The Depressed Person” by David Foster Wallace (1998) [pdf] by throwanem on Friday October 21, 2016 @07:31PM (#12765823)
Do you mean by that to say I write like a pretentious ass? Because if so, well spotted! I'm absolutely a pretentious ass. Like any such, I thrive best well away from others of my ilk, because we can't help striking sparks off one another; based on what I've seen of Eng lit academia, I tend therefore to think it is the wrong hothouse for me.
Re:“The Depressed Person” by David Foster Wallace (1998) [pdf] by mercer on Saturday October 22, 2016 @04:27PM (#12770424)
I still don't get how being a pretentious ass and wanting to distance yourself from your ilk is best achieved by emulating their style.

Either you don't give a shit about 'them' and write as pretentiously as you desire, or, like myself, you adjust your style to distance yourself from 'them' because you dislike the association.

As it is, it's rather confusing to me because I can't tell the difference between you and the 'Eng lit academia' you seem to wish to avoid.

All that said: I don't think you write like a pretentious ass and I feel anyone should communicate however they want as long as the message comes across. And personally I like your style. So rock on, I guess :). But it's essentially what DFW is doing too, I think.

Re:“The Depressed Person” by David Foster Wallace (1998) [pdf] by moseandre on Wednesday October 19, 2016 @01:34PM (#12745816)
He is well-known for long, grammatically correct sentences and abundant footnotes. Some of it was fitting in as an academic?

I find some of the writing tough (i.e. impossible to read at night in bed) but the audio book for Infinite Jest narrated by Sean Pratt [1] is really nice. The narrator's speech is somehow easier to follow despite the number of clauses and whatever else in the writing.

[1] http://www.audible.com/pd/Fiction/Infinite-Jest-Audiobook/B0...

Re:“The Depressed Person” by David Foster Wallace (1998) [pdf] by krylon on Thursday October 20, 2016 @02:10PM (#12754698)
The footnote thing tripped me up. Some time after reading Infinite Jest (and Gravity's Rainbow) I decided to take a shot at writing a novel, and I splattered it with footnotes. It was great fun, but it quickly becomes an annoying habit, the kind you know you don't want to do that but you constantly find yourself doing that anyway. (So breaking the habit was exceedingly annoying.)
Re:“The Depressed Person” by David Foster Wallace (1998) [pdf] by wldcordeiro on Wednesday October 19, 2016 @12:58PM (#12745474)
What is TDP?
Re:“The Depressed Person” by David Foster Wallace (1998) [pdf] by krylon on Wednesday October 19, 2016 @12:59PM (#12745488)
"The Depressed Person", I guess, the text linked to above. ;-)
Re:“The Depressed Person” by David Foster Wallace (1998) [pdf] by wldcordeiro on Wednesday October 19, 2016 @01:04PM (#12745551)
There are far too many acronyms to deal with, getting down into a comment thread and seeing one 3-4 levels deep didn't connect with me as one for the linked content.
Re:“The Depressed Person” by David Foster Wallace (1998) [pdf] by lisper on Wednesday October 19, 2016 @02:09PM (#12746182)
Sorry, I thought TDP had been lexically bound, at least implicitly :-)
Re:“The Depressed Person” by David Foster Wallace (1998) [pdf] by nartsbtaa on Wednesday October 19, 2016 @05:30PM (#12747868)
David Foster Wallace also had an annoying habit of sprinkling non-standard (or at least obscure) acronyms throughout his writing.
Re:“The Depressed Person” by David Foster Wallace (1998) [pdf] by wldcordeiro on Wednesday October 19, 2016 @08:35PM (#12749018)
Indeed, the Eschaton chapter in Infinite Jest had a large amount of them and I ended up having to read the book with this wiki to make sense of lots of these acronyms. http://infinitejest.wallacewiki.com/david-foster-wallace/ind...