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Re:Open Source is not dead: On the recent demise of RethinkDB by nickpsecurity on Monday October 17, 2016 @12:26PM (#12726531)
I was promoting something similar along with a guy named (Quinn?). About three of us here before this thread haha. Anyway, proprietary software dominates in terms of longevity and profit. FOSS has extra benefits plus lacks specific risks. Seems obvious to me a hybrid is the answer. My first was where people pay for product with source + perpetual license (copyright and patent) for that release + GPL-like rights to fix or extend it for their own purposes. Even distribute those to community of paying users. The final possibility of lock-in or freezing that comes from lack of open distribution is the last straw for open-source people. That needs effective solution.

The alternatives are two things: dual-licensing or just charging for the open-source software. These are fully open-source where they have no risks of proprietary software but risk loosing profit due to freeloaders or knockoffs. The latter option, charging for OSS stuff, threw me as I thought it wasn't allowed per some of the license but an OpenSUSE employee pointed out it's basically what they do. Some others do, too, including one person whose company does custom jobs for other firms plus GPL's anything they make. You basically make it available for people to grab but just keep charging corporations for it anyway. They don't know the difference as they're paying for specific benefits.

What's your thoughts on these OSS options?

EDIT: Wait, yeah it was Quinn with Fair Source. I've been too busy to get back to him but I see all of us having a more extended discussion on these things in future when things stabilize for me. :)

Re:Open Source is not dead: On the recent demise of RethinkDB by chipotle_coyote on Monday October 17, 2016 @12:56PM (#12726798)
My first was where people pay for product with source + perpetual license (copyright and patent) for that release + GPL-like rights to fix or extend it for their own purposes. Even distribute those to community of paying users.

Interestingly enough, similar models seemed to be more common back in the dark ages of computing before terms like Open Source and Free Software were really a thing, particularly on minicomputers and mainframes. It made its way to the "microcomputer" world in more limited fashion, then sort of slowly died out. But I think there may still be something to the notion of a license that, while not remotely meeting the definition of "free software," still gives you access to the source.

I'll be honest, though; I think FOSS advocates have a tendency to (perhaps unconsciously) downplay how important "free as in beer" has been for the adoption of a lot of major software projects. An internet in which Apache, MySQL, PHP, and other major free software projects were released with commercial "source included" licenses would probably look very different.

I have my own thoughts about RethinkDB's failure as a commercial entity, but despite having actually been inside, I have pretty limited insider knowledge. Perhaps we should have been trying to push an "enterprise edition" with guaranteed support much earlier, following the "charging for OSS stuff" line you mentioned; as others have said, maybe we just didn't have enough avenues through which to give us money. (It's hard not to notice that MariaDB's .com site is essentially page after page of ways to give them money, for instance.)

Re:Open Source is not dead: On the recent demise of RethinkDB by nickpsecurity on Monday October 17, 2016 @01:08PM (#12726915)
The Burroughs MCP came with source with users allowed to submit updates to them for redistribution. So, the first, great mainframe for business operated under shared-source license. It became a multi-billion dollar company. They closed it off and pulled all kinds of schemes eventually. Now called Unisys.

I think a combo of paid with source and closed-source extensions can still get lots of success. We're already seeing it with enterprise editions for features that basically only enterprises use. That keeps them from crippling the main, OSS product which costs less. I also envision giving free licenses to people that contribute lots of code, docs, testing, etc. One way is to simply not charge businesses below a certain revenue amount or only to charge a support fee tied to cost of delivering support. As they grow, so does the software house like in the royalty model.

Re:Open Source is not dead: On the recent demise of RethinkDB by tomcam on Tuesday October 18, 2016 @03:39AM (#12732751)
I just visited mariadb.com and the front page is all about open source. A free download button is 1 click away. Did not get the feeling of a hard sell at all.
Re:Open Source is not dead: On the recent demise of RethinkDB by bsder on Monday October 17, 2016 @05:06PM (#12729767)
> Anyway, proprietary software dominates in terms of longevity and profit.

Profit? Sure.

Longevity? Not even close.

Things like the Spice3 circuit simulator and the Magic VLSI editor can continue to exist and run 30+ years later solely because they are open source.

Re:Open Source is not dead: On the recent demise of RethinkDB by nickpsecurity on Monday October 17, 2016 @08:38PM (#12731105)
Many companies and their enterprise products go back decades with oldest being from 60's. Those are still updated and sold due to lockin. In general case, your point is probably true given natural advantage of open source plus how market kills off so many IT firms.
Re:Open Source is not dead: On the recent demise of RethinkDB by flukus on Monday October 17, 2016 @10:15PM (#12731520)
A lot of OSS software goes back nearly as far, emacs is 40 this year.
Re:Open Source is not dead: On the recent demise of RethinkDB by nickpsecurity on Monday October 17, 2016 @10:50PM (#12731650)
Didnt know it was that old. Still younger than MCP (1961) which Unisys still sells for tens to hundreds of millions a year. Proprietary has record so far if it's old and still supported. Quite a few of them in legacy mode.
Re:Open Source is not dead: On the recent demise of RethinkDB by bsder on Tuesday October 18, 2016 @02:33AM (#12732549)
Only because someone was willing to pay money rather than have to update their systems. Intel fab lines are the sole reason that VMS still exists.

However, is MCP actually running directly on modern hardware or is it being emulated through multiple layers?

Of course, you can use my own argument against me that the ports of Spice 3 and Magic to modern hardware are hardly the same program as 30 years ago.

Re:Open Source is not dead: On the recent demise of RethinkDB by nickpsecurity on Tuesday October 18, 2016 @02:55AM (#12732625)
"Only because someone was willing to pay money rather than have to update their systems."

The same reason for a lot of what's in open source. See PHK's A Generation Lost in the Bazaar for some truly unimpressive stuff.

"However, is MCP actually running directly on modern hardware or is it being emulated through multiple layers?"

x86 is emulated on a custom RISC machine. So does it matter when saying whether x86 is a proprietary ISA that still dominates desktops? MCP is proprietary software whose apps keep running for decades regardless of what hardware they're running on. Like other mainframes, the AS/400, whatever. I hope you're not looking for loopholes around the fact that proprietary software can last decades if it's mission critical, supported, and hard to move off of. It can and does in quite a few cases.

"Of course, you can use my own argument against me that the ports of Spice 3 and Magic to modern hardware are hardly the same program as 30 years ago."

I can't since I don't know enough about them. The mainframe and futureproof markets for software try to maintain backward compatibility with stuff you don't change. So, the part the app runs on is probably the same with who knows what underneath. Sometimes that part is ported, emulated, virtualized, etc. Varies. API and software above stays the same.

Re:Open Source is not dead: On the recent demise of RethinkDB by flukus on Monday October 17, 2016 @10:53PM (#12731662)
Watch out for survivor bias. For every old but still supported platform I'm sure there are dozens that aren't.
Re:Open Source is not dead: On the recent demise of RethinkDB by nickpsecurity on Monday October 17, 2016 @11:15PM (#12731753)
Remember the original comment you responded to agrees that OSS wins here mostly but proprietary software can last a long time. And the oldest so far look proprietary. Survivor bias doesn't change that claim.
Re:Open Source is not dead: On the recent demise of RethinkDB by m_mueller on Monday October 17, 2016 @04:25PM (#12729355)
I'm curious on what you'd think about my sister comment since you have already been in this position.
Re:Open Source is not dead: On the recent demise of RethinkDB by sqs on Monday October 17, 2016 @06:24PM (#12730357)
I am the Quinn you mentioned. :) Would love to chat whenever you want. For other folks reading this, the license he is referring to is Fair Source at https://fair.io/.