After working in Mac-centric development environments for the past 12 years, I can't say I'm enamored with Apple's hardware track record. The desktops have been for the most part reliable, but the laptops and iMacs have not fared so well. All 12 iMac G5s we purchased were serviced under Apple Care at least once - some went twice. And the survivors all have obnoxious fan noise problems. I remember a generation of PowerBook G4s that had a problem with the display losing connection. Plenty of those went back as well.

Externally, they are designed very nicely, and the internals of the desktops have always impressed me. I'd love to see something else similar come along. The closest I can remember is the old MIPS-based SGIs.

G5s? G4s? It's been 4 years since they switched to Intel. All that says is that at least 4 years ago they weren't making great laptops.

"To argue against an idea honestly, you should argue against the best arguments of the strongest advocates." - http://lesswrong.com/lw/lw/reversed_stupidity_is_not_intelli...

Rephrase the question, then, who makes better laptop hardware than the Aluminium Unibody MBP?

Does it count if someone makes something that does the same job at a quarter of the price, so that if you flex it too much, or run it over with your car, or leave it on the bus then you can replace it and still be saving half the price?

Or are we forced to accept Apple's business model as a given, just like Microsoft fought against the netbook pricing model because it began to make their OS pricing look ridiculous?

No, because it's not about the initial purchase price. It's about having your stuff crammed into a piece of hardware, and for most people being dependent on that stuff being readily accessible.

That's why the "it just works" attitude is very powerful amongst the almost entire population for whom replacing hardware is a really huge deal, because they

a) have to be without their stuff for the time it takes for the computer repair guy to fix it, and b) because they're scared pantless that their stuff will have been destroyed.

If you're not in the know, broken computer _might_ mean loss of data. That thought means loss of sleep.

The Macbook assumes you keep things on your Mac, the netbook...

That counts as a valid preference, but it isn't an answer to "who makes better quality hardware?" unless you are implicitly answering "nobody you can think of".

So there's no such thing as a quality bicycle, because some companies make motorcycles?

This is the place where a discussion turns into a pointless unending argument. We are certainly not talking about the same thing in the same context.

Are you

a) defining or redefining "quality" to so that a cheap item can be considered high quality because it can be replaced cheaply?

b) avoiding answering the question of who makes a better laptop hardware than the unibody mbp because you can't suggest any company and don't want to admit that

c) you think I am refusing to see some obvious and relevant point because I'm an apple fanboy or that I am just being obtuse

d) other ( insert answer here )

My point, which I didn't think was too obtuse, was that if you squint at a bicycle from the point of view of a motorcyle, then you could easily conclude that it was just a crappy motorcycle, as it doesn't meet the applicable quality criteria.

But, and this is where it gets interesting, you can do the same in the opposite direction and conclude that a motorbike is just a really crappy bicycle because it's heavy, expensive etc.

You could say the same about most web apps versus their desktop equivalent.

So, to a lesser degree, a laptop designed within the constraints of a factor of 4 price difference, perhaps with mobility (and all the many non-obvious things that mobility entails, like the iBooks being designed to be put in student backpacks and so not having little breakable flaps covering ports) being paramount are going to be faced with very different set of engineering trade-offs. I think it's simplistic to say that the Apple one has greater quality if you don't take that into account. (Especially when their expensive material choices seem to regularly kill wireless signals, that's a quality and engineering factor too).

Apple themselves have said that they don't know how to build a cheap netbook that isn't crappy (I think that's almost a direct Jobs quote) so I don't see why they should be getting plaudits for sitting out a market that they've decided is difficult, when you're calling out the folk who actually make products for their lack of quality. I think it's a good business move for them, and I'd continue to buy their products as I have for years, if I couldn't get something much, much cheaper, that does the same thing (and often a few more things) and doesn't lock me in to a series of interlocking, expensive purchases within their ecosystem. What locks-in their users, also locks out people like me.

Have you ever owned an IBM Thinkpad?

IBM:s ThinkPads seems really sturdy. But has the quality been maintained since Lenovo bought the ThinkPad brand?

yes it has

Yes, and it didn’t pass the creak test.

Yeah, but it does pass the "accidentally spilled coffee on my keyboard test".

Mine passed the "getting dropped from 3-5 feet on about 700 different occasions" test.

Mine passed the got-run-over-by-an-SUV test, modulo a new external keyboard and monitor.

Mine had a cracked motherboard because I was apparently picking it up off the table wrong, by the corner vs gently holding it on both sides, as designed. IBM initially claimed that it was water damage (6 months prior), searching online revealed a small army with the same problem as I.

I still use that ThinkPad (well minus the new motherboard) on my electronics bench, but to say that its on par with the iPhone or Mac Pro in terms of quality is laughable. The whole thing looks and feels like its made out of recycled plastic. Its so ugly it looks rugged.

And I still love the damn thing... go figure.

> Mine had a cracked motherboard because I was apparently picking it up off the table wrong, by the corner vs gently holding it on both sides

Same as mine. Replaced with MacBook Air, without regrets.

>The whole thing looks and feels like its made out of recycled plastic.

Wait, I thought that Apple was the eco-conscious company.

What vintage? I remember seeing that Lenovo added a "roll cage" to the Thinkpad line that supposedly allows it to be run over by a car.

I found a 1990s Thinkpad in my desk at work. It's makes for an excellent step ladder.

My sister's didn't. More RAM for me (and my next laptop will also be a thinkpad)!

No, but I have coworkers that do. They're nice machines, but they're still a collection of plastic components, and don't have the tight tolerances and clever case design that one sees in recent MacBooks.

I can't get past the blue "ThinkVantage" key. It's like a big pimple that says "a douchebag designed this." It also has no purpose once you install a real operating system, since the software that it invokes only runs on that crummy OS they ship it with.

You need to get over yourselves then. Thinkpads are really well made because they are not made to please some designers - they are made to be used.

Ok that came of way too snarky. What I was attempting to say was that Thinkpads were (I haven't used any that were made by the Chinese manufacture so I can't answer for them) made to be used and were designed to handle the hits and spills that would happen naturally over the course of such work (the keyboard had drainage, the hinges were extra enforced and it could take quite a few drops).

On the other hand my iPod has already got three scratches in it. One was because my keys were in my pocket (which I do all the time with my cell, without any issues) the other when when I dropped it two feet (of my bed, and not on purpose).

Sure the iPod stuff is nice, but I wouldn't rely on it for actual work.

I agree. I actually prefer Toughbooks for that reason. The biggest thing I dislike about Apple's hardware is that you have to treat it like a family heirloom.

It is more durable than cheap PC hardware though, which is why I called it middle-of-the-road in terms of durability.

But I still massively prefer the aesthetics and designs of Apple's hardware. I do not see why you couldn't design a Toughbook-type machine with sparse Apple-like aesthetics. In fact, it almost seems like it would make it easier... fewer connectors and buttons means less points for liquid entry, eliminating extra drives means fewer moving parts, etc.

If I ditched Apple for Linux, I'd probably take a look at the Sony Vaios... they're pretty sparse and seem well made.

My friend's IBM Thinkpad went through 3 video cards and a motherboard before she replaced it with a MacBook Pro.