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Re:The Killer Cats Are Winning by lnanek2 on Tuesday October 11, 2016 @12:15PM (#12685784)
> This is a ridiculous point to waffle on: pet cats should no more be allowed to roam around at will than should pet dogs, horses, pythons, or pot-bellied pigs.

Actually, my Dad grew up on a mountain where, every day after school, he would come home and gather up the pig and cows that had been let free to eat for the day. So there's certainly use cases for letting a pig roam free and gather some forage. By the time I was growing up we had chickens, which had to be brought in at night to prevent predators from eating them, but otherwise could roam the yard to eat worms and the like.

Also a horse that kept the grass in the yard short without us having to mow it. There were goats, but they weren't allowed free mostly because they went and ate mountain laurel and poisoned themselves.

It's kind of strange to take a working animal like a cat, bred for pest control, and stick in a little indoor room and never let them out. Did farmers originally lock up their barn cats in the barns? I don't think so. It's actually a problem when they accidentally get locked up in a shed or a car or something, because they aren't out doing their jobs.

Seems nuts to me that the author belittles letting them outside.

Re:The Killer Cats Are Winning by khalilravanna on Tuesday October 11, 2016 @01:20PM (#12686401)
Are you suggesting we should ignore an ecological disaster because the perpetrators are "just doing their job"?

Citing the historical reasons for their existence doesn't really help the case that they aren't a problem now because the exact reason that it's now and not then. Cats may have had a purpose when they were introduced but in most cases they don't actually serve that purpose anymore. And we can ignore that point entirely because feral cats don't even fit the definition of animals with a job to begin with. They aren't owned by anyone, they are just another animal in the environment. One that happens to be an invasive species causing extraordinary damage to the environment.

Re:The Killer Cats Are Winning by sien on Tuesday October 11, 2016 @06:12PM (#12688950)
There is a new view in biology that accepts that humans have introduced new species and there are many examples where mass killing just won't work anymore.

http://e360.yale.edu/feature/courting_controversy_with_a_new...

It's too late to go and kill all the cats. It's been tried in Australia for decades and it's a dismal failure.

It's arguable that trying to kill cats or rabbits or whatever now is just species Xenophobia.

Re:The Killer Cats Are Winning by BFatts on Tuesday October 11, 2016 @01:44PM (#12686656)
Just stop. Stop bickering about cats being the problem. The problem is humans... We are the problem. Their existence is due to us. Their domestication is due to us.
Re:The Killer Cats Are Winning by smallnamespace on Tuesday October 11, 2016 @01:48PM (#12686701)
Certainly. So what should humans do about the cats?
Re:The Killer Cats Are Winning by ferentchak on Tuesday October 11, 2016 @02:45PM (#12687363)
In practice it seems bring them snacks and put them in cute sweaters.
Re:The Killer Cats Are Winning by Kliment on Tuesday October 11, 2016 @05:27PM (#12688660)
Spay/neuter your pet. It's the most effective thing to do.
Re:The Killer Cats Are Winning by tunesmith on Tuesday October 11, 2016 @05:49PM (#12688800)
I did some back-of-the-envelope math a while back that showed that if we wanted to make demand-of-pets match the supply-of-cats-and-dogs in the US, we'd basically each have to have one pet, at all times, for our entire lives. So, a family of four would need four pets. New baby: additional pet. Pet dies: get a new pet. One for each person at all times.

Barring that, if you want to minimize suffering of future stray cats/dogs (or limit environmental impact), it makes sense to do a one-time massive nationwide effort of scooping up all stray cats and dogs, and either spaying/neutering them, or culling them.

Re:The Killer Cats Are Winning by haimez on Tuesday October 11, 2016 @08:27PM (#12689582)
Get out of the way and let cats solve the problem! We're the problem, let them solve us!
Re:The Killer Cats Are Winning by vinchuco on Tuesday October 11, 2016 @10:46PM (#12690106)
I love comments like this for reminding me to do something more productive with my life.
Re:The Killer Cats Are Winning by eli_gottlieb on Wednesday October 12, 2016 @09:17AM (#12692498)
Allow people to own dogs? I know where I live, many pet-owners who could have gone either way choose a cat just because there are almost no landlords who allow dogs.
Re:The Killer Cats Are Winning by webkike on Tuesday October 11, 2016 @04:44PM (#12688368)
Probably just have fewer cats
Re:The Killer Cats Are Winning by paavokoya on Tuesday October 11, 2016 @05:26PM (#12688651)
It seems this thread is filled with defensive cat-lovers who have no argument other than to bury heads in the sand.
Re:The Killer Cats Are Winning by wruza on Tuesday October 11, 2016 @08:03PM (#12689483)
Cat loving is known to be related to toxoplasmosis. Kitty-kitty!
Re:The Killer Cats Are Winning by mikestew on Tuesday October 11, 2016 @12:38PM (#12685999)
Actually, my Dad grew up on a mountain where, every day after school, he would come home and gather up the pig and cows that had been let free to eat for the day.

The statement you quoted said cats "should be no more allowed to roam than <other domesticated livestock>". Your father's livestock were allowed to roam. Ergo, maybe the author wasn't talking about the farm your father grew up on. Something something false equivalencies or something.

Did farmers originally lock up their barn cats in the barns?

Did Jesus have a pet cat? No. Cats are the devil. Or maybe the author was not prescribing a one-size-fits-all solution.

We have a litany of examples of "Europeans brings domestic cats to newly-explored island, ecological devastation ensues", I don't think we need to digress with stories unrelated to the environments to which the author refers (which I gather to be urban and suburban environments).

Re:The Killer Cats Are Winning by ScottBurson on Tuesday October 11, 2016 @02:13PM (#12687001)
I have owned cats my entire adult life (I'm 58) and have never allowed them outside. They do just fine indoors. They also live longer, healthier lives, with less disease and much less danger from cars, raccoons, etc. And they don't bother the neighbors.

In the country, I could imagine letting cats outside -- though only after getting them neutered or spayed -- but in the city or suburbs, where I have lived, keeping them inside makes more sense.

Re:The Killer Cats Are Winning by e40 on Tuesday October 11, 2016 @04:38PM (#12688325)
I agree. I did have a cat that came to me. It showed up on on my property (of rather small size) and wouldn't leave. When the weather got nasty, he would come in for the night, but would sit at the door until we let him out, and if we didn't his cries got progressively worse until we did. He was just too used to the part inside/outside life. Before he showed up, we had a serious mouse and rat problem. A few months after he arrived, no more problem. I literally never saw any evidence of rats/mice again (5+ years until we moved).

The mice were getting to be a problem, btw, because they were burrowing between the walls of my house and making noise at night, and doing god knows what damage in there.

My wife was once on the porch with him. She was gardening (lots of potted plants, etc). He was laying there in the sun and snapped up to grab a hummingbird in flight. She grabbed him and he spit it into her hand. The hummingbird flew away a few seconds later. That was when I realized how efficient a predator he was.

EDIT: and he did get into a fight with a raccoon once, that required stitches. So, living inside will definitely increase the health and length of life.

Re:The Killer Cats Are Winning by narrowrail on Tuesday October 11, 2016 @02:52PM (#12687423)
The freedom to roam seems like an interest to all creatures.

Also: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I_Know_Why_the_Caged_Bird_Sing...

Re:The Killer Cats Are Winning by jahewson on Tuesday October 11, 2016 @02:35PM (#12687250)
> healthier lives, with less disease

Seems unlikely. Citation needed.

Re:The Killer Cats Are Winning by smallnamespace on Tuesday October 11, 2016 @02:49PM (#12687399)
https://www.vetinfo.com/indoor-outdoor-cat-life-expectancy.h...

'A pet that spends more time outdoors may live on average 2 to 3 years less than a cat that lives exclusively indoors.'

Re:The Killer Cats Are Winning by gumby on Tuesday October 11, 2016 @03:25PM (#12687701)
Yes but it's not clear that the life expectancy is shortened by disease rather than accident (interactions with cars, coyotes or unpleasant people, for example).

That indoor cats live longer seems reasonably well attested. However here's some anecdata: sum of my parents' 8 indoor/outdoor cats + my 3 indoor/outdoor cats: none have lived less than 13 years (two made it to 18). My parents two indoor-only cats both died before reaching 13. I have assumed the cats that go outside survived due to the low number of vehicles and predators they had to deal with.

Re:The Killer Cats Are Winning by eridius on Tuesday October 11, 2016 @04:42PM (#12688358)
It seems kind of obvious that indoor cats would have less disease. Outdoor cats are exposed to a lot more than indoor cats are. And there's a few big ones, like Feline leukemia or Feline Aids, that indoor cats simply don't get because they don't come into contact with other cats that have them. As long as the cats eat a healthy diet and have enough exercise, indoor cats should be expected to live longer than outdoor cats on the average.
Re:The Killer Cats Are Winning by gumby on Tuesday October 11, 2016 @05:45PM (#12688783)
It does seem obvious but plenty of things that seem obviously so turn out not to be after a study is done. I don't know of any actual studies of it. It might be possible to get the data simply by reviewing at records from pet veterinarians.

There are other reasons to keep cats inside, as is the subject of the article. The problem is much worse in Australia where birds and small marsupials nest on the ground.

Re:The Killer Cats Are Winning by gumby on Wednesday October 12, 2016 @05:12PM (#12696446)
Why on earth was this down voted? It simply says a study is more useful than emotion.
Re:The Killer Cats Are Winning by upofadown on Tuesday October 11, 2016 @01:46PM (#12686675)
Livestock allowed to roam in the wilderness can be very destructive. Is that sort of thing still done there?
Re:The Killer Cats Are Winning by wil421 on Tuesday October 11, 2016 @02:34PM (#12687229)
"Wilderness" most likely meaning the wilderness on your fenced in but very large property.

IIRC some cattle out West are allowed to graze on government/public land. Later in the season when it's time to get them back to the farm they check their brands so they know which Cattle belong to their farm.

Re:The Killer Cats Are Winning by takk309 on Tuesday October 11, 2016 @02:38PM (#12687277)
Many states in the west still have free range laws allowing ranchers to let their livestock roam about on public lands.
Re:The Killer Cats Are Winning by geebee on Tuesday October 11, 2016 @04:15PM (#12688133)
Were your dad's pigs allowed to wander over to his neighbor's vegetable garden?
Re:The Killer Cats Are Winning by billiam on Tuesday October 11, 2016 @06:18PM (#12688993)
Uh, the fantasy world your dad described is not the real world. Cows are one thing, they are too big to lose except perhaps in India, but do you have any idea what environmental damage is being done by feral pigs that were "let free to eat for the day' and never came back? If you want to domesticate an animal to work for you, then you take responsibility for it and all it does, plain and simple. Eventually we will use DNA and chipping to charge people for the costs of their "companion" animals, which are only now becoming apparent.

It should not be too surprising what apex predators like cats (we make them tiny, but they are at the top of the food chain nonetheless) can do to ecosystems if crazy people (us) confuse them with cuddly toys and breed and feed them without control.

Re:The Killer Cats Are Winning by nornagest on Wednesday October 12, 2016 @12:02AM (#12690357)
> It should not be too surprising what apex predators like cats (we make them tiny, but they are at the top of the food chain nonetheless) can do to ecosystems if crazy people (us) confuse them with cuddly toys and breed and feed them without control.

Just for nitpicking: How can they be "apex predators" "at the top of the food chain" when they're eaten by coyotes e.g.?

Re:The Killer Cats Are Winning by eli_gottlieb on Wednesday October 12, 2016 @09:21AM (#12692521)
Different apex predators sometimes compete. Humans, for instance, can be eaten by lions, but we're apex predators nonetheless. The point of being an apex predator is that you're not a staple of anyone else's diet.
Re:The Killer Cats Are Winning by nornagest on Wednesday October 12, 2016 @12:40PM (#12694365)
Thanks for the clarification.
Re:The Killer Cats Are Winning by MrMullen on Tuesday October 11, 2016 @01:28PM (#12686487)
> out doing their jobs.

That IS the problem.

Re:The Killer Cats Are Winning by trhway on Tuesday October 11, 2016 @02:27PM (#12687133)
people gather wild bird eggs for food as a delicacy in city parks. Yet we blame the wild bird decimation (those birds who was able to survive in already tough city environment created by humans) in cities on cats. Cats don't eat eggs, rats do. Cats control rats. Cats also able to catch and eat an ill bird. It is pretty healthy coexistence until humans forcefully insert themselves. And it is so typical of the human race to blame somebody else for the harm humans create. I mean just look at the environmental damage, including the damage to birds population, resulting from production of that burger you've just ate for lunch.