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Re:Say Cheese: a snapshot of the massive DDoS attacks coming... by logicallee on Tuesday October 11, 2016 @11:26AM (#12685249)
your first and fifth points are an oxymoron. Obviously nobody wants their dishwasher, washing machine, fridge, microwave, to put up messages, "is it okay to update now?" - can you imagine dozens of devices in people's homes doing that?

so your first point, automatically updates, implies your fifth point, administered by vendor, should be "yes". (Not "no", as you've put it.)

Further, I would like you to think more broadly about infrastructure. I think every person's home should have a local network called "shitty backdoored and malicious IoT crap". The question is how to administer that network, what its topology should be, how these devices should be able to receive information from the Internet, and in general what their capabilities should be and the way in which they should be firewalled off.

Having these devices on users' home wifi via their home router (the status quo) is obviously wrong and insufficient. I'm afraid your checklist is also, therefore, wrong and insufficient.

so, think harder at the architectural level, please. the existence of IoT stuff is obviously good. (as in, obviously there can be a benefit to devices being able to be connected - in the abstract, not based on today's very flawed infrastructural and architectural choices) the infrastructure we have for it today is obviously insufficient. I don't have a comprehensive solution in mind or anything but it is worth giving serious attention to by people who have spent years on the subject.

today, they are failing. It's not that people are ignoring their advice: they just don't have any. They've thrown up their hands and given lists like yours, which are not a comprehensive solution and are not even internally consistent. They need to think outside the box and propose completely new infrastructure.

there needs to be different infrastructure in place, not an SOP for the current infrastructure. we need better security baked into the topology and architecture of how the devices are connected.

Re:Say Cheese: a snapshot of the massive DDoS attacks coming... by pdkl95 on Tuesday October 11, 2016 @11:37AM (#12685362)
> Obviously nobody wants their microwave to put up a message, "is it okay to update now?"

Then why are you putting it on the internet?!

Either you create devices that are secure - which may include things that neither the manufacturer or the user want to do - or you shouldn't be putting it on the internet.

> I think every person's home should have a local network called "shitty backdoored and malicious IoT crap".

Relying on border security is a terrible idea. A firewall is not an excuse to ignore host security.

Re:Say Cheese: a snapshot of the massive DDoS attacks coming... by logicallee on Tuesday October 11, 2016 @11:49AM (#12685497)
Right, so with the binary choices we have today you've given a good analysis. but there are other choices when people think outside the box and experts create new infrastructure. I think we're on the same page and you see some of the same issues I do, we're not going to come up with a goood solution in this comment thread.

pretty sure we can at least agree that all IoT choices available to users and manufacturers today are hugely problematic for one or both of these parties.

Re:Say Cheese: a snapshot of the massive DDoS attacks coming... by riskable on Tuesday October 11, 2016 @04:32PM (#12688267)
> Obviously nobody wants their dishwasher, washing machine, fridge, microwave, to put up messages, "is it okay to update now?"

No, I don't expect anyone to be asked to update. I expect it to work just like Chromecast devices do: It updates in the background while in operation and applies that update at the next reboot. If idle for long enough it'll reboot itself (usually in the middle of the night when no one is expected to use it).

Self-update mechanisms aren't rocket science. In fact, there's so many FREE options to choose from at this point you can just take your pick. Don't need to code anything on your own!

Re:Say Cheese: a snapshot of the massive DDoS attacks coming... by fps on Wednesday October 12, 2016 @08:47AM (#12692293)
Sorry, that's bullshit. Automatic updates are one of the worst ideas about IoT devices, because the updates almost always remove functionality. Manufacturers have been known to remove key functionality, or just straight out brick recently sold devices when they have liability concerns or their business plan changes and they don't want people using the old devices anymore.

  - http://www.theverge.com/2016/4/4/11362928/google-nest-revolv-shutdown-smart-home-products

  - https://nest.com/support/article/Nest-Protect-Safety
Re:Say Cheese: a snapshot of the massive DDoS attacks coming... by logicallee on Tuesday October 11, 2016 @04:41PM (#12688349)
I agree with you, and my point was that the list I replied to is not well put-together since we must remove the fifth requirement, that the manufacturer should not administer the device. Yes, they should. (Chromecast being an example.) so we're saying the same thing - it's just in conflict with the suggestion that manufacturers shouldn't administer devices remotely.
Re:Say Cheese: a snapshot of the massive DDoS attacks coming... by flukus on Wednesday October 12, 2016 @12:14AM (#12690388)
This doesn't solve the security issue though, it just moves it to the self update mechanism.
Re:Say Cheese: a snapshot of the massive DDoS attacks coming... by riskable on Wednesday October 12, 2016 @09:50AM (#12692768)
Lack of updates create a security issue. In fact, I'd argue that update mechanisms are the most critical security issue of our time!

By neglecting to update devices you increase risk by ensuring vulnerabilities won't get fixed. You also might not get notified in the event of product recalls (if you never registered your purchase).

I understand your argument though: By solving one security issue we're creating another: Trusting the vendor. To that I have this to say...

If you don't trust the vendor why did you buy their product in the first place!?

Re:Say Cheese: a snapshot of the massive DDoS attacks coming... by codedokode on Wednesday October 12, 2016 @06:28PM (#12696903)
Updates cannot help against zero day vulnerability. A better solution would be not to allow anyone to connect to a device.
Re:Say Cheese: a snapshot of the massive DDoS attacks coming... by flukus on Wednesday October 12, 2016 @05:18PM (#12696490)
Lack of choices? Nearly all PCs and phones come with crapware I don't trust.