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Re:Backpage Raided, CEO Arrested on Sex-Trafficking Charges by empthought on Friday October 07, 2016 @09:49AM (#12660618)
> So's all of capitalism - what is employment but the buying of somebody's body and mind? But I don't see people like you arguing towards the end of that

This isn't germane to the issue, which is that purchasing sex is a reprehensible act. However, there is indeed a strong strain of anti-capitalist thought in radical feminism; it surprises me that you don't know this.

> Also, I assume you don't actually mean bodies, as that would imply you're similarly against non-sexual modelling, acting, etc etc, where people employ people directly for their bodies, to varying degrees.

I meant literally their bodies, not images of their bodies, or actions that their bodies perform. I meant direct access to their mouths, rectums, vaginas for the purpose of sexual gratification. I suppose if purchasing that kind of access had other purposes besides sexual gratification, "sex" wouldn't seem like such a special case.

Re:Backpage Raided, CEO Arrested on Sex-Trafficking Charges by vertex-four on Friday October 07, 2016 @09:58AM (#12660671)
> However, there is indeed a strong strain of anti-capitalist thought in radical feminism; it surprises me that you don't know this.

I moderate a handful of self-titled "social justice warrior" chatrooms, which are full of everyone from libertarian socialists to anarcho-communists. I'm reasonably aware of various strands of feminism. I've been having a discussion on the morality of sex work for much of today.

Sex work is immoral for the same reasons other work is immoral. It's not a special case, and shouldn't really be treated much differently. If you want to protect the sex worker from the necessity of performing their work, you should be similarly protecting the minimum wage retail clerk from the necessity of performing their work. Neither is worse than the other, and they have similar solutions.

Re:Backpage Raided, CEO Arrested on Sex-Trafficking Charges by empthought on Friday October 07, 2016 @10:06AM (#12660725)
Again you are misrepresenting my position; it's not that "sex work" is somehow more immoral than other work, it's that the purchase of sex is immoral, shameful, and frankly, pathetic. It has nothing to do with capitalism vs. anarchism or anything else.

Even under capitalism, purchasing e.g. food for your family that was somehow acquired under coercive circumstances is still less shameful than purchasing e.g. diamonds that were somehow acquired under coercive circumstances. What you're purchasing matters; it's not all the same.

Re:Backpage Raided, CEO Arrested on Sex-Trafficking Charges by vertex-four on Friday October 07, 2016 @10:16AM (#12660795)
Assuming you own a TV - the purchase of your television was immoral, shameful, and pathetic - you bought into the incredibly poor working conditions of various mines in developing countries, coercive labour in China, and more. And yet you bought it for entertainment. If you don't own a TV, I'm reasonably sure I could pick out something else you've done that involved coerced labour that you didn't need to.

The solution is to get rid of the system which is coercive. It's not to tell everybody who ever wanted to buy a television not to within the context of capitalism.

Re:Backpage Raided, CEO Arrested on Sex-Trafficking Charges by empthought on Friday October 07, 2016 @10:28AM (#12660904)
No, the purchase of a television is less immoral, shameful, and pathetic than the purchase of sex. It is qualitatively different. There is nothing inherent in my possession of a television that demeans or degrades another human being; it's simple circumstance that makes working conditions more or less morally acceptable.

The purchase of sex inherently demeans and degrades another human being because it places one's own sexual gratification over another person's bodily autonomy.

Re:Backpage Raided, CEO Arrested on Sex-Trafficking Charges by croon on Friday October 07, 2016 @10:35AM (#12660956)
> The purchase of sex inherently demeans and degrades another human being because it places one's own sexual gratification over another person's bodily autonomy.

I'm a contractor, and I get to choose my clients. If I don't want to work with someone, I don't. Why would it be "inherently" demeaning in sex work, if they got to choose their clients and there were better protection and regulation?

Why is it an implementation issue with your TV purchase, and an inherent issue with sex work? I don't follow the logic.

Re:Backpage Raided, CEO Arrested on Sex-Trafficking Charges by empthought on Friday October 07, 2016 @10:52AM (#12661092)
HN comments really don't do justice to the answer to this question, please consider http://unesdoc.unesco.org/images/0009/000913/091355mb.pdf

TL;DR no prostitute can "choose" a john that isn't going to sexually exploit her (and thus violate her human rights) because that's the nature of purchasing sex.

A direct quote TL;DR

Does the 'right to prostitute' exist?' Clearly prostitution cannot exist as a right because it usurps and negates already established human rights of the prostitute woman to human dignity, bodily integrity, physical and mental well-being...Human rights are universal and inalienable. They cannot be reduced to the instrumentality of individual choice alone because individual choice can and does include the right to harm or propagate harm on others or inflict harm on oneself.

Re:Backpage Raided, CEO Arrested on Sex-Trafficking Charges by croon on Friday October 07, 2016 @11:06AM (#12661226)
You're arguing on the premise that someone can dictate someone elses values on human rights. Which I would argue is a worse violation.
Re:Backpage Raided, CEO Arrested on Sex-Trafficking Charges by empthought on Friday October 07, 2016 @11:11AM (#12661269)
OK, in that case we had no right to prosecute the Holocaust, and saying that we did is a worse violation than the Holocaust...
Re:Backpage Raided, CEO Arrested on Sex-Trafficking Charges by croon on Friday October 07, 2016 @11:45AM (#12661539)
Wait, what? You honestly went with Godwin's law on this?

There are people in the sex industry who enjoy their industry. There were no people on the receiving end of the holocaust who enjoyed that.

If you can't grasp the difference you should not try to discuss anything.

Re:Backpage Raided, CEO Arrested on Sex-Trafficking Charges by empthought on Friday October 07, 2016 @12:05PM (#12661719)
The question was whether to "dictate someone elses values on human rights" consists a worse violation than the human rights violation itself; it's pretty obvious the answer is "no." In fact the entire concept of human rights relies on there being some possibility of an objective standard of "human rights" that does not depend on an individual's choice or opinion, even if that individual's choice or opinion biases them to permit the violation of their own human rights.

You think prostitution is not a violation of human rights. I do. It's pretty much that simple. But clearly what specific individuals used to think about freedom from slavery, or the right of Jewish people to exist, or the right to basic dignity and access to food and livelihood, has no bearing on whether or not these things are human rights. They just are.

Re:Backpage Raided, CEO Arrested on Sex-Trafficking Charges by cholantesh on Friday October 07, 2016 @01:35PM (#12662420)
>it's not that "sex work" is somehow more immoral than other work, it's that the purchase of sex is immoral, shameful, and frankly, pathetic

It's morally acceptable to sell a service but not to purchase it? That's asinine.

Re:Backpage Raided, CEO Arrested on Sex-Trafficking Charges by empthought on Saturday October 08, 2016 @08:52AM (#12666794)
"It's morally acceptable to be a slave but not to own one? That's asinine."

The "economic transaction" model is in almost all cases a fig leaf for the abuse of women, even in jurisdictions where prostitution has been legalized or decriminalized.

Re:Backpage Raided, CEO Arrested on Sex-Trafficking Charges by cholantesh on Saturday October 08, 2016 @10:11AM (#12666976)
You aren't purchasing the person and agency of a person when you engage the services of a sex worker, and it isn't yet established that sex work is inherently abusive. Miles of digital ink wasted on just-so stories do not suffice for evidence.
Re:Backpage Raided, CEO Arrested on Sex-Trafficking Charges by empthought on Saturday October 08, 2016 @10:24AM (#12667019)
http://www.spinifexpress.com.au/Bookstore/book/id=285/

http://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/relationships/sex/i-clutche...

http://www.prostitutionresearch.com/pdf/Prostitutionin9Count...

"Just-so stories," k bud. Tell yourself whatever lies you need to in order to condone johns and pimps; I can't stop you.

Re:Backpage Raided, CEO Arrested on Sex-Trafficking Charges by cholantesh on Wednesday October 12, 2016 @09:24AM (#12692547)
The vast majority of your posts in this thread are variants on "You hate women, you cryptofascist". When presented with a lengthy rebuttal of your claims that cited a UN report on white slavery, your only rejoinder was to continue in this vein. Methinks you care less about the dignity and safety of women and more about feeling like a martyr.