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Re:Lawsuit: Yahoo CEO Marissa Mayer led illegal purge of mal... by iamleppert on Friday October 07, 2016 @02:34AM (#12658659)
Just reading this brought back memories of working at LinkedIn, and why I'll never again work for a company who has institutional performance review processes. That pretty much excludes all big tech companies and I'm perfectly fine with that. The cookie-cutter performance review process is impersonal and has absolutely nothing to do with helping people do their best work.

In my case, I had a manager who simply didn't like me because I'm gay and used the performance review process, and eventually put me on an action plan and forced me to quit.

Most of the big tech companies will put you on something called a PIP, which is a "Performance Improvement Plan". It basically means they are preparing to fire you, but they give you an option: quit now, and you can have some severance, or you could try and stay and complete the PIP, but still run the risk of being fired for any reason, and in that case, you get no severance. It's exactly what happened to me, and I decided it wasn't worth the stress to try and stay and fight it so I just quit.

It was the most demoralizing experience ever, and really showed me that these processes are in place so managers can just get rid of people they don't want or like.

Re:Lawsuit: Yahoo CEO Marissa Mayer led illegal purge of mal... by hibikir on Friday October 07, 2016 @02:54AM (#12658707)
That's not really about the review process, but about making one of the biggest mistakes you can make: After you know your manager doesn't like you, you didn't do everything in your power to either switch teams or change companies.

Nothing good will come out of working for a manager that doesn't like you. You'll get worse reviews than you deserve and worse raises. You'll get less exposure to other parts of the company: Every second you spend in that situation is a second wasted.

That said, I am absolutely not putting the blame on you here. A manager that doesn't like one of their reports should either get over it or do their best to ship them to a place where they'll be better appreciated. The tech industry is full of terrible managers though, and you are probably not going to make yours better.

So the real rule when looking for new jobs is to avoid places where they hire first and do allocations later, as your picture of what the company is at interview time might be completely different than what you'll find on day one.

Re:Lawsuit: Yahoo CEO Marissa Mayer led illegal purge of mal... by protomyth on Friday October 07, 2016 @01:46PM (#12662495)
> That's not really about the review process, but about making one of the biggest mistakes you can make: After you know your manager doesn't like you, you didn't do everything in your power to either switch teams or change companies.

The biggest career advice you can take: it never gets better, there is no good fight, and you should flee to save yourself.

I expect the parent post [edit: iamleppert] was blameless, but that won't save you in most companies. I dream of a company that actually gives a crap about the people writing their code, but HR / Management will always back the a??hole to preserve the company. Maybe instead of hiring widget managers they would find people who have "shipped" creative endeavors (TV Shows, plays, etc.). Don't know if it would work, but it cannot be worse.

Re:Lawsuit: Yahoo CEO Marissa Mayer led illegal purge of mal... by umanwizard on Friday October 07, 2016 @04:12PM (#12663593)
> The biggest career advice you can take: it never gets better, there is no good fight, and you should flee to save yourself.

This is demonstrably false since a lot of people like their jobs (that includes me and, anecdotally, most of the people I work with)

Re:Lawsuit: Yahoo CEO Marissa Mayer led illegal purge of mal... by traek on Friday October 07, 2016 @04:19PM (#12663626)
I think the unwritten qualification is "If it's a bad environment".

"If it's a bad environment -- it never gets better, there is no good fight, and you should flee to save yourself."

It's very possible to find places that are good to work at. It's highly unlikely for a shitty environment to get significantly better.

Re:Lawsuit: Yahoo CEO Marissa Mayer led illegal purge of mal... by protomyth on Friday October 07, 2016 @04:28PM (#12663695)
Yes. you are correct. Since I was replying to someone who was in a bad environment, I was referring to that case.

> It's very possible to find places that are good to work at. It's highly unlikely for a shitty environment to get significantly better.

Yep.

Re:Lawsuit: Yahoo CEO Marissa Mayer led illegal purge of mal... by umanwizard on Friday October 07, 2016 @04:32PM (#12663723)
Oh, okay. I misunderstood you. I thought you were just being cynical about work in general.
Re:Lawsuit: Yahoo CEO Marissa Mayer led illegal purge of mal... by NhanH on Friday October 07, 2016 @07:47AM (#12659863)
> So the real rule when looking for new jobs is to avoid places where they hire first and do allocations later, as your picture of what the company is at interview time might be completely different than what you'll find on day one.

Oh hey that's actually a whole lot of big corps ... most prominently Google, isn't it?

Re:Lawsuit: Yahoo CEO Marissa Mayer led illegal purge of mal... by coldpie on Friday October 07, 2016 @09:09AM (#12660341)
My interview experience with Google a couple years ago was godawful and horribly mismanaged. Just reinforced my conviction to never work for a large company.
Re:Lawsuit: Yahoo CEO Marissa Mayer led illegal purge of mal... by Grishnakh on Friday October 07, 2016 @03:02PM (#12663124)
I worked for Intel years ago, and a lot of things in this thread applied there: really awful institutional performance review processes (they called it "ranking and rating"; I think it's been changed a lot since I left though), and also hiring first and doing allocations later (I had no idea what exactly I'd be doing when I got hired, but I was only a couple years out of college so I was very junior anyway).

Working there had its ups and downs. I will say, that company could actually produce stuff, unlike some places I've seen. It was also really, really nice to have a cubicle, but they were "compressing" those when I left. I have no idea if they've moved to the stupid open-office plan or not since then, but I kinda doubt it actually. I really miss having a cubicle... I used to think they sucked, but after years of other office arrangements, I now long for a cubicle again (though a walled office would of course be much better, just like it'd be nice to live in a $10M mansion and have a private jet).

Anyway, the interview process at Intel back then was grueling and ridiculous, with a bunch of managers coming in and grilling me with questions on all kinds of stuff, a lot which I had no idea about (like device physics). But a couple years ago I interviewed with Google. That was probably the worst interview experience I've ever had.

Lastly, I've interviewed at and worked with some other large companies. Their interviews were nothing like Google's.

Google's interviews are not like other companies', and are not representative of large companies at all. Google's interviews are unique to Google, and have been roundly criticized by many.

Re:Lawsuit: Yahoo CEO Marissa Mayer led illegal purge of mal... by Altaer on Friday October 07, 2016 @01:58PM (#12662606)
I interviewed with them 2 years ago, as well as a couple of months ago. 2 years ago I would have rated the experience as "fine". My most recent experience was great, however. Very organized, lots of communication on Google's part, and I had a great interviewer. They have definitely made improvements.
Re:Lawsuit: Yahoo CEO Marissa Mayer led illegal purge of mal... by kafkaesq on Friday October 07, 2016 @02:22PM (#12662782)
Do share, please (if you feel comfortable).
Re:Lawsuit: Yahoo CEO Marissa Mayer led illegal purge of mal... by coldpie on Friday October 07, 2016 @02:39PM (#12662929)
Sure. Set up a date over email for an initial phone screen with the recruiter. Left work early to make the appointment at home. Recruiter never called. Asked WTF, got an apology and another appointment for next week. Recruiter missed that one, too (really). Finally made a connection a few days later, got bizarre questions like "estimate 2^14 (or something) in decimal". Did poorly on that, so they forwarded me to another recruiter who passed me on to a developer for a code interview. I was fairly fed up at this point and not looking for a job anyway, so I didn't do any interview prep. Interviewer sounded bored as hell, asked me to implement a graph deep copy algorithm and some other basic stuff. I haven't done algorithms implementation since college; I work in the real world where we have Google and libraries. So I bombed that, too. Got a call a few days later saying they're not interested. OK, see ya.

Just felt like going through the cogs of a machine that didn't give a shit, which really didn't give me incentive to give a shit in return. Big companies suck.

Re:Lawsuit: Yahoo CEO Marissa Mayer led illegal purge of mal... by Grishnakh on Friday October 07, 2016 @03:08PM (#12663165)
Sounds pretty much like my experience with Google. I'm an embedded programmer with a EE degree, not a CS degree, and they hammered me with a bunch of algorithm questions like you said. I'm not even interested in (nor qualified for) heavy-CS type work; I thought maybe they'd want me for more low-level stuff or doing some kind of work with hardware, custom OS or driver development, etc.

But as I said above, don't paint all big companies with the same brush. Google's interviews are not at all like the interviews I've done with a bunch of other big companies. In many big companies, the different groups work entirely differently anyway; when I interviewed at Freescale, it wasn't any different than interviewing at some small company really, and the small workgroup I ended up working in was a great team to work with, and again didn't deal that much with the rest of the company anyway. It was a great experience except for upper management screwing it all up after a couple of years.

Re:Lawsuit: Yahoo CEO Marissa Mayer led illegal purge of mal... by coldpie on Friday October 07, 2016 @04:16PM (#12663614)
Haha, yeah, I do systems development, not far from your area of work, I imagine. I have a CS degree, but I hated doing it. Google seemed to be aiming for CS experts, and I just want to make computers do cool/useful stuff.

Of course, there's other disadvantages to working for big companies. Lots of dead weight (see: that recruiter I worked with), lots of rules, a lack of trust, lots of bureaucracy... I'd do it if I have to, but the small company vibe works way better for me.

Re:Lawsuit: Yahoo CEO Marissa Mayer led illegal purge of mal... by Grishnakh on Tuesday October 11, 2016 @10:54AM (#12684920)
There's advantages to big companies too: better pay usually, better benefits, more structure, and in my experience more professionalism. Also the ability to move laterally is useful. If you're a female or minority you'll probably do better in a big company too because they're very intolerant of harassment and discrimination because they can get in legal trouble for it, so they're very proactive about addressing these things early on, providing training for it, etc., whereas some small companies I've been at seem to have a "good-ole boy" culture still hanging around. If you can get into the right workgroup, a big company can be a good experience, but different groups and departments can be run very differently from each other within the same company.
Re:Lawsuit: Yahoo CEO Marissa Mayer led illegal purge of mal... by TheDrizzle43 on Friday October 07, 2016 @11:55PM (#12665589)
Not saying it's a good interview question, but if you ever need to quickly estimate exponents of 2 just remember 2^10 bytes=1kb, 2^20=1mb, 2^30=1gb, etc. so 2^14 would be 16kb.
Re:Lawsuit: Yahoo CEO Marissa Mayer led illegal purge of mal... by godzillabrennus on Friday October 07, 2016 @02:53PM (#12663048)
This is an old post about the experience for those interested: http://www.catonmat.net/blog/my-job-interview-at-google/
Re:Lawsuit: Yahoo CEO Marissa Mayer led illegal purge of mal... by thedufer on Friday October 07, 2016 @08:28AM (#12660085)
My experience was that they refused to even talk money before doing team matching. This was less than a year ago; maybe things have changed?
Re:Lawsuit: Yahoo CEO Marissa Mayer led illegal purge of mal... by redler on Friday October 07, 2016 @02:21PM (#12662770)
That's such a strange approach. The've marked you as a "hire" but not even discussed a range? Given how long this process sometimes takes, and that good people will have multiple offers (and typically an already comfortable income), how is one supposed to make a career decision?
Re:Lawsuit: Yahoo CEO Marissa Mayer led illegal purge of mal... by thedufer on Friday October 07, 2016 @07:07PM (#12664622)
> how is one supposed to make a career decision

By finishing the process? I had other offers, and they waited the <one week it took to finish team matching with Google.

When would that take a long time? It was a quick chat with a few managers and then I picked.

Re:Lawsuit: Yahoo CEO Marissa Mayer led illegal purge of mal... by oneweekwonder on Friday October 07, 2016 @04:38PM (#12663751)
duh it's google/facebook/etc...

If you are willing to make the fanatic choice; your the employee they want. They might be missing out on a lot of talent in the industry. But they do weed the candidates down to fanatics.

Re:Lawsuit: Yahoo CEO Marissa Mayer led illegal purge of mal... by bitL on Friday October 07, 2016 @08:17AM (#12660016)
The guy you go to lunch with during your on-site interview @Google is most likely the one that becomes your boss if you are hired.
Re:Lawsuit: Yahoo CEO Marissa Mayer led illegal purge of mal... by wp1 on Friday October 07, 2016 @08:26AM (#12660074)
FTFY: The guy you go to lunch with during your on-site interview @Google is most likely the one who hasn't completed interview training yet.
Re:Lawsuit: Yahoo CEO Marissa Mayer led illegal purge of mal... by wattt on Friday October 07, 2016 @08:46AM (#12660191)
FTFY: the PERSON you go to lunch with...
Re:Lawsuit: Yahoo CEO Marissa Mayer led illegal purge of mal... by jimmywanger on Friday October 07, 2016 @10:55AM (#12661112)
FTFY, guy and dude are pretty much asexual references for a person you don't know who you had a personal interaction with, at least in California.

"Who did you have lunch with? Oh, some dude."

Try not to language police here. You're not bringing anything to the discussion.

Re:Lawsuit: Yahoo CEO Marissa Mayer led illegal purge of mal... by iron0012 on Friday October 07, 2016 @11:52AM (#12661595)
That's not true in my experience, and I doubt it's true in yours. While "guys" is sometimes employed to refer to a mixed gender group of people, it would be very weird for "guy" or "dude" to be used to refer to a woman. Argue in good faith, please. And try not to police PC here. You're not bringing anything to the discussion.
Re:Lawsuit: Yahoo CEO Marissa Mayer led illegal purge of mal... by bobthecowboy on Friday October 07, 2016 @12:49PM (#12662068)
As someone who has lived in Southern California 90% of their life, and Berkeley, CA the rest, I can absolutely say that it is true in my experience that Californians (and I obviously include myself in this set) will use 'guy' and 'dude' to refer to anything. Men, women, children, dogs, cats, cars, burritos.

Last week I got up from the table to throw the rest of my burrito away and offered to take my wife's as well by saying "Dude, are you going to finish that guy?" I understand it isn't "correct", and the English are within their rights weep for their language if they like, but it is not weird at all in coastal California.

Re:Lawsuit: Yahoo CEO Marissa Mayer led illegal purge of mal... by amyjess on Friday October 07, 2016 @01:35PM (#12662416)
I remember using "guy" to refer to a network cable at one point.

"Do I plug this guy or that guy into the switch?"

This was in North Texas.

Re:Lawsuit: Yahoo CEO Marissa Mayer led illegal purge of mal... by nogbit on Monday October 10, 2016 @05:43PM (#12679988)
I refer to many servers, consoles, screens etc as him/her/he/she/guy, and I to call out any last remaining food on the kids plate in the same way as you. West coast as well.
Re:Lawsuit: Yahoo CEO Marissa Mayer led illegal purge of mal... by bitL on Friday October 07, 2016 @05:22PM (#12664010)
I got it from both living in California and Miami, where many people used it that way, girls as well. For me it was a bit strange at first, but got used to it. I guess it might be some local urban stuff leaking nationwide?
Re:Lawsuit: Yahoo CEO Marissa Mayer led illegal purge of mal... by jimmywanger on Friday October 07, 2016 @02:45PM (#12662991)
You bring up your experience, basically call me a liar about my experiences and accuse me of not adding anything to the discussion.

Interesting. I grew up in California and what I said is a fact, as confirmed by other people. What are you bringing to the discussion exactly besides baseless accusations?

[dead]
Re:Lawsuit: Yahoo CEO Marissa Mayer led illegal purge of mal... by jimmywanger on Friday October 07, 2016 @05:25PM (#12664023)
I'm pretty sure I've lived here longer than you have, and you're not only showing your rudeness, but the lack of knowledge you have about the Bay Area and environs. Have fun slinking back to your hole.
Re:Lawsuit: Yahoo CEO Marissa Mayer led illegal purge of mal... by iron0012 on Friday October 07, 2016 @09:38PM (#12665201)
Nah, I never once heard anyone in Berkeley refer to a woman as a "dude" or a "guy".
Re:Lawsuit: Yahoo CEO Marissa Mayer led illegal purge of mal... by ajamesm on Friday October 07, 2016 @03:18PM (#12663240)
I agree with the lady who wrote this post.
Re:Lawsuit: Yahoo CEO Marissa Mayer led illegal purge of mal... by jimmywanger on Friday October 07, 2016 @06:29PM (#12664409)
Way to misinterpret what I said. I said that "dude" and "guy" were asexual, not "lady".
Re:Lawsuit: Yahoo CEO Marissa Mayer led illegal purge of mal... by ajamesm on Friday October 07, 2016 @08:59PM (#12665062)
I was using "lady" asexually.
Re:Lawsuit: Yahoo CEO Marissa Mayer led illegal purge of mal... by jimmywanger on Saturday October 08, 2016 @01:30PM (#12667771)
Just like you can use the "n-word" non-racially?

The conversation was about the colloquial usage of the word dude and guy. Nothing was said about lady.

Re:Lawsuit: Yahoo CEO Marissa Mayer led illegal purge of mal... by ajamesm on Saturday October 08, 2016 @06:50PM (#12669076)
> "guy and dude are pretty much asexual references"

and I'm using 'lady' asexually. Is this triggering you?

Re:Lawsuit: Yahoo CEO Marissa Mayer led illegal purge of mal... by jimmywanger on Saturday October 08, 2016 @09:45PM (#12669521)
Considering that lady is not generally accepted as an asexual term, I'm having a difficult time parsing your statement.

Certain words mean certain things in certain contexts. If you want to start using "lady" as an asexual term, go for it. Be prepared for stares and weird looks when people don't know what you're talking about because it's not generally used that way, unlike 'dude and guy'.

What's your point exactly?

Re:Lawsuit: Yahoo CEO Marissa Mayer led illegal purge of mal... by ajamesm on Saturday October 08, 2016 @10:18PM (#12669604)
You don't see my point? You're frustrated and defensive, and all I've done is address you by the wrong gender.
Re:Lawsuit: Yahoo CEO Marissa Mayer led illegal purge of mal... by jimmywanger on Saturday October 08, 2016 @11:30PM (#12669762)
> You're frustrated and defensive

Project much?

> all I've done is address you by the wrong gender.

How do you know it's the wrong gender? Why are you making assumptions about my gender, without knowing if I identify as a female?

My original point was the the words "dude" and "guy" have lost all gender connotations in California at least. Try to stay on point.

Re:Lawsuit: Yahoo CEO Marissa Mayer led illegal purge of mal... by xiaoma on Friday October 07, 2016 @01:55PM (#12662581)
Dude implies some level of laid back cool personality. A dude is someone who skateboards, skis or does lots of pot, not a typical accountant, grammarian or middle manager.
Re:Lawsuit: Yahoo CEO Marissa Mayer led illegal purge of mal... by bitL on Friday October 07, 2016 @11:57AM (#12661634)
You guys should really fix English language. As a non-native speaker whose native language allows properly expressing gender anytime, I find this funny, being downvoted for what is a structural problem of your language :-D
Re:Lawsuit: Yahoo CEO Marissa Mayer led illegal purge of mal... by Grishnakh on Friday October 07, 2016 @05:02PM (#12663882)
Does your language allow referring to a person while leaving their gender unspecified? If not, your language is deficient.

All the mainstream European languages I've seen (Germanic and Romance) don't seem to have this capability at all, and it's a big deficiency. Formal English doesn't have it either, but colloquially we've evolved it, using "they" (which of course is bad because it's supposed to be used for referring to people in the plural sense, not singular).

So don't complain about a language having structural problems if yours isn't any better.

Re:Lawsuit: Yahoo CEO Marissa Mayer led illegal purge of mal... by bitL on Friday October 07, 2016 @05:19PM (#12663983)
It allows both ungendered and gendered approaches. It's really up to you to choose. So in fact my language is better in this regard, worse in others. Like any language.

I would prefer mentalese over Vangelis' direct to be honest ;-)

Re:Lawsuit: Yahoo CEO Marissa Mayer led illegal purge of mal... by int_19h on Friday October 07, 2016 @02:17PM (#12662743)
Thing is, most languages that do that don't just allow properly expressing gender, they require it. And that's not necessarily a good thing.
Re:Lawsuit: Yahoo CEO Marissa Mayer led illegal purge of mal... by hindsightbias on Friday October 07, 2016 @08:40PM (#12664981)
Regardless of what weird world they live in, nobody refers to a singular woman as a guy or dude in the mainstream.

"guys" became gender neutral sometime in the 70's, Rita Moreno: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H_iGaQglnKg

Re:Lawsuit: Yahoo CEO Marissa Mayer led illegal purge of mal... by akavi on Friday October 07, 2016 @10:45AM (#12661035)
This isn't true to my knowledge (I work at google). It's usually just another person from the interviewer pool. Decent chance you'll never see them or any of the other interviewers again after joining.
Re:Lawsuit: Yahoo CEO Marissa Mayer led illegal purge of mal... by umanwizard on Friday October 07, 2016 @04:14PM (#12663606)
Facebook is like this as well, but I very strongly disagree that it's a negative.
Re:Lawsuit: Yahoo CEO Marissa Mayer led illegal purge of mal... by existencebox on Friday October 07, 2016 @04:37PM (#12663748)
MSFT did this as well (at least for my hiring) and I found it to be negative, largely due to many reorgs shortly after hiring/being in a side of the company only peripherally related to what information I had going in. (ended up making friends on the team I'm still getting coffee with even today and the team ended up turning out fine from a career/productivity standpoint, but I likely would have taken a competing offer at the time had I known the work I'd actually been doing)
Re:Lawsuit: Yahoo CEO Marissa Mayer led illegal purge of mal... by IndianAstronaut on Friday October 07, 2016 @04:03AM (#12658951)
>So the real rule when looking for new jobs is to avoid places where they hire first and do allocations later

This is an issue with big banks like Capital One. The management culture is absolutely awful there and they hold a tremendous amount of power and of course abuse that power as well as abuse the workers.

Re:Lawsuit: Yahoo CEO Marissa Mayer led illegal purge of mal... by del82 on Friday October 07, 2016 @07:40AM (#12659832)
Just to add another view here: I'm currently a Data Scientist at Capital One and enjoy it quite a bit. I've found management to be open, supportive, and invested in my and my coworkers' success and development. They also allow and encourage people to change teams within the company, so if you find yourself in a situation that's not working out, you can move to another team.

I've also not seen anybody leave the company on bad terms. Of course I'm sure that happens, and I'm sure there are bad managers here as everywhere. I'm sorry that you had such a negative experience.

Re:Lawsuit: Yahoo CEO Marissa Mayer led illegal purge of mal... by jk563 on Friday October 07, 2016 @08:14AM (#12659995)
I've seen both sides.

I used to work for Capital One Europe, the UK side of the business that currently only does credit cards, until last year. I'd seen a mixture of some people leaving on good terms and some on bad terms, with no obvious correlation to performance. Personally, I left on good terms for a new role elsewhere.

I'd suggest when you're talking about a company of sufficient size; there are always going to be a mixture of those leaving on good terms and those not.

Re:Lawsuit: Yahoo CEO Marissa Mayer led illegal purge of mal... by IndianAstronaut on Friday October 07, 2016 @10:45AM (#12661034)
The company culture tries to go in a good direction, but it fails at the individual manager level. From people I have talked to, this is not just me but widespread, especially financial services in Plano, Tx.

I get yelled at on a weekly basis. Belittling is comon too, such as being told "you're not that smart and this isn't rocket science". Managers are non technical managing a technical project and micromanagement is the norm.

Re:Lawsuit: Yahoo CEO Marissa Mayer led illegal purge of mal... by qHack on Friday October 07, 2016 @01:53PM (#12662557)
You're a dev. Most rules don't apply to devs
Re:Lawsuit: Yahoo CEO Marissa Mayer led illegal purge of mal... by irascible on Friday October 07, 2016 @07:50AM (#12659877)
IMO the majority of managers SUCK. Thankfully I've had some GREAT ones, so I can tell the difference now.

If they suck due to non-malicious ineptitude, it's usually pretty bearable, and you can self manage your way around them.. if they suck as a human being.. wooo buddy, time to bounce.

A good manager is both a buffer and a lubricant. They pave the runway, and get out of the way.. and then make you feel good about what you do, while understating their own contribution.. ( and hopefully get their fuzzies from the business stakeholders, who see the productivity and progress gains. )

Shout outs to all the good managers out there! :D

Re:Lawsuit: Yahoo CEO Marissa Mayer led illegal purge of mal... by ArkyBeagle on Friday October 07, 2016 @08:54AM (#12660241)
I got run through a PIP ( at a unnamed company full of Jack Welch devotees - srsly, ex GE ) because I was twice old enough to vote and wanted to stay technical. They were basically lining up a layoff. This worked out long term but it was inconvenient for several months. I'd gotten a LOT of work done; multiple high value contract awards, all on time and under budget, all that. No, our way was to overrun and do Difficulty Kabuki Theater.

Why demoralization? It ain't you, it's them. There will be more people you don't want to work for than that you do want to work for anyway. I thin you'll find that the good people are bright lights in an ocean of darkness.

Also and seriously - there are still people in tech who allow homophobia to affect their behavior to that extent?

Yeesh.

Re:Lawsuit: Yahoo CEO Marissa Mayer led illegal purge of mal... by arethuza on Friday October 07, 2016 @08:38AM (#12660146)
I had one large company where performance was really one bit - ranking was on a scale of 1 to 5 and, as I was told, "nobody is a 5 and if you were a 1 or 2 you'd already have been sacked".

So everyone was either a 3 (meeting expectations) or 4 (exceeding expectations in some areas).

I did manage to persuade my line manager (the CIO) to give me a 5 on something but he then felt the need to mark me down somewhere else so I remained a 4 overall.

Utterly pointless exercise.

Re:Lawsuit: Yahoo CEO Marissa Mayer led illegal purge of mal... by talmand on Friday October 07, 2016 @10:04AM (#12660713)
I worked at a company that was purchased and the new management switched us to this type of system. During my time previous the buyout I had practically doubled my salary through reviews. With the new system I was one of two who got the highest rating the system offered. My raise was less than the previous cost-of-living increase I received.

Then they insisted I move to keep my job. Since the move meant going to a better job market I went along with it and then quit after a decent amount of time.

Re:Lawsuit: Yahoo CEO Marissa Mayer led illegal purge of mal... by pavel_lishin on Friday October 07, 2016 @09:57AM (#12660666)
Sounds like high school teachers who refuse to give a perfect 100 because "nobody is perfect".
Re:Lawsuit: Yahoo CEO Marissa Mayer led illegal purge of mal... by carlmcqueen on Friday October 07, 2016 @08:53AM (#12660229)
Very common system, I've worked for two companies and both has this exact system.
Re:Lawsuit: Yahoo CEO Marissa Mayer led illegal purge of mal... by r_smart on Friday October 07, 2016 @02:59PM (#12663095)
Ahh, the old 'Force reality to conform to my imperfect understanding of statistics' method. Never mind that in a small, unrepresentative sample it's entirely possible to have a team of people be all 5-star or all 1-star. Indeed, the goal is to build teams of 5-star people!

Off-topic mini rant: This is something that pissed me off about college too. Grading on a curve just serves to mask flaws. Either the professor is shit, the course is shit, the test is shit or the students are shit. Shifting the goal posts so that the top score of 54 / 100 is now an A is just dishonest.

Re:Lawsuit: Yahoo CEO Marissa Mayer led illegal purge of mal... by exoromeo on Friday October 07, 2016 @02:07PM (#12662661)
I worked for a company with this same process. When I became middle management there, I was told I couldn't give all 5s even if I felt they were earned because "there's always room for improvement".
Re:Lawsuit: Yahoo CEO Marissa Mayer led illegal purge of mal... by tomerv on Friday October 07, 2016 @02:52AM (#12658705)
What's the alternative? I assume that you expect companies to promote/fire based on performance. How can you do that without a performance review process?

My experience has been that the biggest factor is your direct manager. If your manager hates you, then you have a serious problem, because no matter what kind of process (or lack of process) your company has, they can get you fired. On the other hand, a good manager can help you do your best despite any existing "cookie-cutter" process.

Re:Lawsuit: Yahoo CEO Marissa Mayer led illegal purge of mal... by awesomerobot on Friday October 07, 2016 @07:40AM (#12659833)
From what I've seen the performance review process in large companies allows you to mask a personal vendetta as a performance issue (and you'll get away with it).

Your manager can say "based on feedback everyone says you suck" and you can't really do a whole lot to look into it. You don't know where the feedback is coming from, or if it's even valid.

At a smaller company a manager seems more responsible to look at performance democratically. So if they have a personal vendetta and they fired someone for it, it's much easier for other employees and other managers to see what's going on and call it out (so they might not act on it to begin with).

Of course that's not universal, sometimes at a small company you might have one person with consolidated power so it doesn't really matter (and can be much worse). And of course, at a smaller company peer pressure can keep issues under wraps because you're worried about everyone knowing that you're the one bringing it up.

So yeah, a performance review process needs to exist at larger companies because it makes sense logistically... but criticism of that process doesn't mean it should be thrown out entirely, it just welcomes the discussion about how it can be improved. There are middle grounds between strict performance reviews and small-company democracy.

Re:Lawsuit: Yahoo CEO Marissa Mayer led illegal purge of mal... by jfoster on Friday October 07, 2016 @10:41AM (#12661007)
I don't know how common it is, but some companies have a process whereby your peers supply the feedback, and a management team reviews it. Surely this must address the issue of a manager who doesn't like you, right?
Re:Lawsuit: Yahoo CEO Marissa Mayer led illegal purge of mal... by junon on Friday October 07, 2016 @12:48PM (#12662054)
When you have 11,000+ employees, it's hard to have an objective team investigate every single review. Plus, how can this objective team, with little to no context of daily interactions, assess whether or not feedback is "legitimate" or dripping in disdain?
Re:Lawsuit: Yahoo CEO Marissa Mayer led illegal purge of mal... by __derek__ on Friday October 07, 2016 @03:02PM (#12663122)
Yes, that's called 360 feedback. It suffers from some intrinsic drawbacks, though.

First, nobody has an incentive to provide negative feedback except for serious cases (i.e. you cannot work with this person) or for political reasons. It's a prisoners dilemma with indefinite iterations, so each player's incentive is to provide positive feedback.

Second, in my experience, it's only reviewed by one person rather than by a management team, which opens it up to an array of biases on the manager's part. If a manager thinks that someone is a great team-player, and a reviewer says that that person is a petty tyrant, they're likely to doubt the reviewer's motives rather than updating their beliefs.

Re:Lawsuit: Yahoo CEO Marissa Mayer led illegal purge of mal... by awesomerobot on Tuesday October 11, 2016 @08:39AM (#12683775)
Yes, and there are some problems with that system as outlined by others — I've also seen instances where the system was really only half-implemented:

Peers supply the feedback, but one manager has the time/resources to review it... so basically they can interpret it however they decide.

Re:Lawsuit: Yahoo CEO Marissa Mayer led illegal purge of mal... by int_19h on Friday October 07, 2016 @02:24PM (#12662800)
You do it by letting managers decide based on perceived performance, and trusting in their assessments. If the biggest factor is your direct manager in either system (which I agree with), we might as well stop pretending otherwise.

This has the same result as the formal review system, but with a lot less overhead. More importantly, if you're denied promotion out of spite, you know that - they can't just say "well, it's not my fault, it's just how the process worked out".

Yes, good managers can definitely help cut through the BS even with a process in place, it takes time and effort for them - time and effort that could be used on something more valuable. And sometimes, no amount of effort is sufficient to buck the process.

From my experience, by the way, a formal competitive review system (buckets etc) makes it more important to have a good manager, because you absolutely need your manager to play the game well against other managers to yield good results for you, no matter how hard you work. If your manager is indifferent, or can't play the game well, they'll take away whatever was left on the table after the rest, and that's what you'll be stuck with.

Re:Lawsuit: Yahoo CEO Marissa Mayer led illegal purge of mal... by bitL on Friday October 07, 2016 @08:22AM (#12660049)
The biggest problem for companies IMO is that the better but not much visible a person is, the bigger competitor to their own boss they become. If they produce top results and already got visibility, they are safe. If they produce top results but aren't visible, they are the prime target of their own managers, as they are just a little luck away from ascending over them.
Re:Lawsuit: Yahoo CEO Marissa Mayer led illegal purge of mal... by yuhong on Friday October 07, 2016 @01:48PM (#12662511)
I think the idea is just fundamentally flawed.
Re:Lawsuit: Yahoo CEO Marissa Mayer led illegal purge of mal... by anotherhacker on Friday October 07, 2016 @08:29AM (#12660090)
"I'll never again work for a company who has institutional performance review processes."

Deming's 3rd deadly disease: Annual rating of performance. “It is purely a lottery”

https://youtu.be/ehMAwIHGN0Y?t=298

Re:Lawsuit: Yahoo CEO Marissa Mayer led illegal purge of mal... by koolba on Friday October 07, 2016 @08:56AM (#12660250)
> Deming's 3rd deadly disease: Annual rating of performance. “It is purely a lottery”

More of a popularity contest than a lottery.

Re:Lawsuit: Yahoo CEO Marissa Mayer led illegal purge of mal... by Asooka on Friday October 07, 2016 @05:16PM (#12663967)
From the perspective of someone who can't play the popularity contest, it's effectively a lottery and the odds are stacked against you.
Re:Lawsuit: Yahoo CEO Marissa Mayer led illegal purge of mal... by zby on Friday October 07, 2016 @03:04AM (#12658743)
Your problem was a manager that did not like you not the performance review process. In a small company without impersonal processes that can be only worse (or maybe better because you'd be fired earlier - fail fast after all - but in the big company you could leave once you learned the fact about your manager on your own).
Re:Lawsuit: Yahoo CEO Marissa Mayer led illegal purge of mal... by twblalock on Friday October 07, 2016 @03:32AM (#12658841)
If your manager does not like you, he does not need a formal review process to screw you over. In fact, without a formal review process, it would be even easier to screw you over, because there won't be any paper trail at all.
Re:Lawsuit: Yahoo CEO Marissa Mayer led illegal purge of mal... by pyrophane on Friday October 07, 2016 @01:06PM (#12662199)
A formal review just covers the company's ass if you come back and claim that your firing was due to illegal discrimination. That is, afaik, 100% of the reason why PIPs even exist. They've decided they wan't fire you and now they need to assemble some compelling documentation that it's you, not them.
Re:Lawsuit: Yahoo CEO Marissa Mayer led illegal purge of mal... by amyjess on Friday October 07, 2016 @01:42PM (#12662467)
A much bigger reason is to demoralize you and convince you that you deserve to be fired, so you won't even think about a lawsuit.

PIPs aren't really good documentation of bad performance; in fact, a badly-written PIP can actually backfire on the company because the wording is usually full of holes a good lawyer can drive a truck through. Basically instead of the company having proof you were a poor performer, you now have proof the company is lying to get you out the door.

A PIP is a lawsuit deterrent, not an actual legal defense.

Re:Lawsuit: Yahoo CEO Marissa Mayer led illegal purge of mal... by yuhong on Friday October 07, 2016 @02:01PM (#12662621)
Not that I like anti-discrimination or wrongful termination laws anyway, though I am willing to compromise. I suggest a compromise to only include certain kinds of jobs like manual labor under employment anti-discrimination laws, where workers are actually commodities that are measureable and interchangeable.
Re:Lawsuit: Yahoo CEO Marissa Mayer led illegal purge of mal... by st3v3r on Friday October 07, 2016 @02:14PM (#12662719)
That's a pretty silly distinction. Why should one's job title determine whether or not they can be discriminated against?
Re:Lawsuit: Yahoo CEO Marissa Mayer led illegal purge of mal... by yuhong on Friday October 07, 2016 @02:17PM (#12662742)
It has to do with how the lawsuits work. It would still be wrong regardless of whether it was actually illegal.
Re:Lawsuit: Yahoo CEO Marissa Mayer led illegal purge of mal... by st3v3r on Friday October 07, 2016 @06:40PM (#12664487)
Yet, you've stated you don't want to allow certain people to file these lawsuits, which are usually the only way of trying to correct the problem. So tell me, why is it ok to deprive some people of this remedy simply because of their job title?
Re:Lawsuit: Yahoo CEO Marissa Mayer led illegal purge of mal... by __derek__ on Friday October 07, 2016 @03:05PM (#12663144)
> where workers are actually commodities that are measureable and interchangeable

If you work for someone else, I have bad news for you ...

Re:Lawsuit: Yahoo CEO Marissa Mayer led illegal purge of mal... by kafkaesq on Friday October 07, 2016 @02:26PM (#12662825)
Apparently they do, in larger companies. It's an expensive, and time-consuming process, and large companies generally don't do those things company-wide without a good reason.†

† The reason may not be immediately evident of course. But when you unwind the bureaucratic logic, ultimately there's almost always a reason behind these phenomena.

Re:Lawsuit: Yahoo CEO Marissa Mayer led illegal purge of mal... by shepardrtc on Friday October 07, 2016 @11:22AM (#12661349)
You're absolutely right. In fact, the formal review process - even though it seems terrible - is actually giving you plenty of time to find another job.
Re:Lawsuit: Yahoo CEO Marissa Mayer led illegal purge of mal... by electriclove on Friday October 07, 2016 @11:05AM (#12661212)
If your manager pushed you out because you are gay, that is discriminatory. I'm truly sorry to hear that and I hope something is done at LinkedIn so that environment is changed.

However, there are usually two sides to a story. I hope you are also considering the possibility that it had to do with your work, your work ethic, your ability to work with others, your ability to take direction, etc.

Speaking as someone on the other side, I hate PIPs too as well as the institutional performance review processes. I wish I could get rid of low performers easily but it is pain.

Re:Lawsuit: Yahoo CEO Marissa Mayer led illegal purge of mal... by pauleastlund on Friday October 07, 2016 @08:32AM (#12660113)
Assuming your interpretation of your manager's motivations are correct, that's horrible and I'm sorry you had to go through it. With that said, would you have had any more protections at a smaller company? The process at those bigger companies, while excruciating for all companies, makes it harder for managers to fire, not easier.
Re:Lawsuit: Yahoo CEO Marissa Mayer led illegal purge of mal... by tech_browser on Friday October 07, 2016 @01:49PM (#12662524)
I had similar experience at VMware where my boss just didn't care enough about me. He never assigned me to any good projects, and prevented me from seeking opportunities in other teams, even if was a simple trial for a few months. Further, he was surrounded by his buddies from his previous work place and I always got the feeling that one needed to be in his clique to get any attention. Whenever I approached him for a different assignment he lectured me on how technology was just about sending data from point A to point B in the most efficient manner and he insisted that I focus on my current assignment.

As time progressed, I noticed that engineers who hung out with him often and discussed interesting topics such as good school districts, real estate, investments, sales at frys electronics etc. were rewarded not just with better work but also promotions, some of them undeservedly. When I finally decided to quit there was not even a "thank you" from him or his minions for my hard work. There were several disgruntled employees in my org who never kissed his bottom and they were all treated with similar nonchalance.

Re:Lawsuit: Yahoo CEO Marissa Mayer led illegal purge of mal... by junon on Friday October 07, 2016 @12:45PM (#12662030)
iamleppert, are you me? I went through literally the exact same situation (same problem with the manager, same outcome, etc.), though instead of quitting I finished the pip and switched to a new team (I was already on another team by the second or third day of the pip as I was taking it to HR, which doesn't always work out - it did in this case).

New team thought it was absolutely ridiculous I was on it, as did many members of the original team. I finished the pip just fine. I work at Large Transportation Company. Same shit over here.

Once I was working with a manager that loved the fact I'm gay, I do great work, stress levels are down (or at least, the stress incurred is the 'fun' kind of stress), etc.

I do agree the review process is ridiculous - I've never been in a company where they had them prior to this. We were told to choose 2-5 coworkers that were really involved in our day to days within the review period (6 months), and after doing so my manager went in and added the rest of the team (including coworkers I barely saw that I had one or two interactions with over the course of months), including other coworkers that had made very brash comments about my boyfriend/age or about gays in general.

Manager used that shitty feedback from three out of the nine total employees that reviewed me (that otherwise gave pretty glowing reviews) to initiate the pip.

There was a whole bunch of other BS with the situation - e.g. a manager and another coworker joking about satanic rituals against us in our team HipChat room - that I really don't feel like going into detail about that just added insult to injury.

What's worse, there has been no investigation into the matter much past asking the offending manager to "talk about things". Oh well.

Re:Lawsuit: Yahoo CEO Marissa Mayer led illegal purge of mal... by omouse on Friday October 07, 2016 @02:18PM (#12662750)
I've been on a PIP before and they're 100% political. You're absolutely right that they're trying to fire you without immediately firing you. They'll probably also try and get you to sign extra legal documents. If you quit, you get shitty severance, if you are fired you get better severance.
Re:Lawsuit: Yahoo CEO Marissa Mayer led illegal purge of mal... by pasbesoin on Friday October 07, 2016 @02:41PM (#12662947)
Pay attention, if you are not familiar with this.

A couple of decades in U.S. corporate life led me to conclude that such performance reviews are nothing more than paper/records generation to back up (legally, risk-reduction, etc.) whatever decision Management decides to make.

They have little or nothing to do with actually performance management and improvement. Well, if you are "favored" by your management, maybe some productive training/coaching will be reflected in them. If you're lucking and have good immediate management. But this is stuff that would have happened, regardless.

Performance reviews are an HR process. And any and all HR processes are about preserving the status quo. They have nothing to do with your personal well-being.

Re:Lawsuit: Yahoo CEO Marissa Mayer led illegal purge of mal... by st3v3r on Friday October 07, 2016 @02:05PM (#12662646)
What companies have ever given you severance if you quit? I've never worked at a place where I'd get anything more than a "See ya!" if I quit.
Re:Lawsuit: Yahoo CEO Marissa Mayer led illegal purge of mal... by detaro on Friday October 07, 2016 @02:08PM (#12662673)
I think the argument was more "If they are likely going to fire me without severance, there is no gain in waiting it out, better quit first"
Re:Lawsuit: Yahoo CEO Marissa Mayer led illegal purge of mal... by amyjess on Friday October 07, 2016 @01:33PM (#12662406)
I was once put on a PIP for political reasons by a vengeful boss. That day, I applied to what ended up being my next job, and I put in my notice the day before the PIP was set to end.

It was a very small startup. Oddly enough, that boss and I get along really well outside of work, and I'd still gladly go out for drinks with him or something, but I will never work for him again.

Re:Lawsuit: Yahoo CEO Marissa Mayer led illegal purge of mal... by gnashville on Friday October 07, 2016 @01:53PM (#12662555)
> vengeful boss

> that boss and I get along really well outside of work

hm.

Re:Lawsuit: Yahoo CEO Marissa Mayer led illegal purge of mal... by amyjess on Friday October 07, 2016 @01:56PM (#12662586)
When he's stressed, he gets very, very abusive and takes it out on his subordinates. He's screamed at me, and I've heard him screaming at my co-workers several offices over. He has no control over his temper. He's actually a better person drunk than he is sober. He's warm and friendly when he's drunk.

Also, he gets irrationally angry when anyone calls out the terrible job done by his friend who he put in an architect position. One co-worker of mine at that company... he raised the issue and ended up being railroaded into quitting a couple of months later, and then I'd heard my boss slandering him behind his back a few times.

It's been almost two years since I quit, and I still have painful flashbacks to the way he would yell at people.

But he is fun to hang out with when there's no power differential involved and when he's wasted.

Re:Lawsuit: Yahoo CEO Marissa Mayer led illegal purge of mal... by gnashville on Monday October 10, 2016 @07:57PM (#12680803)
brutal, glad you made it out when you did.

The "bad as a human except when he's drunk" is pretty interesting, considering it usually works the other way around. Keep that shit at arm's length.

Re:Lawsuit: Yahoo CEO Marissa Mayer led illegal purge of mal... by yuhong on Friday October 07, 2016 @01:51PM (#12662540)
I want to push to fix these problems.