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Re:Why Are Politicians So Obsessed with Manufacturing? by steven777400 on Wednesday October 05, 2016 @07:19PM (#12648818)
The memory is that these old factory/manufacturing jobs were high paying (middle class), secure, and accessible to people of low intellect, minimal education, and limited social grace.

The proposed replacements "caregivers, retail workers and customer-service representatives" are significantly lower wage and also require more "EQ" that the working man of the prior generation didn't need. The voters these politicians are addressing are working from a memory of a time when "men were men", that worked hard in a physical way to produce a physical product; in the memory, these working men didn't think and didn't emote, they produced.

Now, the voter says, men have been "feminized" by being forced out of a productive, provider role where a single income could support the family. Instead, they are placed into a role where they need to express concern, care, and use soft skills instead of physical strength.

And when they want the same pay and security they had before, they are instead told to "learn to code" (or learn whatever, get an education). Which is easy for a coastal educated person to say, but to a line of family men who have not just eschewed education but actively resisted it, this is a tough pill to swallow.

Re:Why Are Politicians So Obsessed with Manufacturing? by jordanb on Wednesday October 05, 2016 @08:20PM (#12649139)
You make some good points but I think you go a little off the rails with the social commentary.

The truth is that wages a worker can earn are bounded at the top by how much value they add. If they are paid more than the value they create they'll be fired (unless they're executives).

A manufacturing line can produce millions of dollars of value with a few dozen workers. This means if the workers organize properly and if they're not undermined by foreign competition then they can potentially capture a lot of value and have high incomes.

The "service" jobs that are replacing them add much less value. A caregiver can only work with one person at a time, and maybe six or eight in a workday. That guarantees the job will be low wage or not done at all.

Our economy used to produce jobs by the tens of millions where an average guy with average ability and a willingness to endure hard work and monotony could buy a house, raise a family, go on the annual vacation to Niagara Falls or the Grand Canyon, have his wife work as much or as little as she wants and eventually retire comfortably. The economy doesn't produce these jobs anymore.

Now we have jobs that are still well compensated but comparatively small in number and highly specialized or jobs that are not and can not provide wages to live the lives people used to have.

Re:Why Are Politicians So Obsessed with Manufacturing? by asperous on Wednesday October 05, 2016 @08:33PM (#12649188)
I think the upper bound on manufacturing jobs would be the cost of automation.
Re:Why Are Politicians So Obsessed with Manufacturing? by dogma1138 on Wednesday October 05, 2016 @08:38PM (#12649211)
Automation isn't the enemy of manufacturing these days as much as decentralized manufacturing is.

Once 3D printing evolves to the point of being suitable to print everyday items it would kill a lot of jobs all across the supply chain the manufacturing industry.

Re:Why Are Politicians So Obsessed with Manufacturing? by bluedino on Wednesday October 05, 2016 @09:06PM (#12649332)
>> Once 3D printing evolves to the point of being suitable to print everyday items

That won't happen any time soon. Sure, you can print household items like a cup, plate, and possibly silverware but so many household things are made out of materials that aren't really 'printable' (a pillow or couch for example) or complicated devices with components (headphones, a can of air freshener, a laptop), manufacturing plays a role in all of those items.

Re:Why Are Politicians So Obsessed with Manufacturing? by dogma1138 on Thursday October 06, 2016 @10:04AM (#12652504)
These items being 3D printable are considerably closer than you think.

We can actually 3D print a pillow now since we already have printers that can 3D print with memory foam. https://3dprintingindustry.com/news/now-can-3d-print-memory-...

The current high end generation of printers use a combination of lithographic/ultrasound and chemical based process control can produce rigid and flexible materials from the same substrate. e.g. http://carbon3d.com/

And we can print already circuit boards as well as embed wires and conductors in the 3D printing process, we can also 3D print basic components like resistors and capacitors. http://www.kurzweilai.net/3d-printing-basic-electronic-compo...

If you think this ain't happening any time soon, we either have a very different definition of soon or you don't really understand just how far 3D printing and additive manufacturing in general has progressed over the past 5 years alone.

We are considerably closer today to the day where when you need a new pair of headphones you simply walk to a kiosk than to the days when low-skilled labor manufacturing was a major part of western industry.

While this isn't going to be done within 2 years, within a decade it is going to be possible, especially considering that additive manufacturing is already being used by local shops and major companies are pushing for this in order to simplify their supply chain.

The car companies are a very good example of this, Audi and a few others have been investing heavily in additive manufacturing of replacement parts in order to be able to grant their authorized dealers and repair shops the ability to 3D print many parts in house. This means that car companies do not need to continue to manufacture replacement parts for decades and keep old tooling a live or to outsource manufacturing to 3rd parties in order to keep their cars running, this also cuts down the cost of shipping and inventory management considerably.

Many other businesses/industries also are expanding into similar techniques with plumbing, electrical work and HVAC systems being prime candidates and being actively piloted in the field, need a 4" Y connector? simply go to your truck and print one....

Re:Why Are Politicians So Obsessed with Manufacturing? by choicewords on Wednesday October 05, 2016 @08:04PM (#12649062)
The reality is there is still plenty of hard, material stuff that needs to be made.

Just look at SpaceX. It's cool, it's tech and it is most certainly hard material science.

We won't be able to make it with just soft skills and software. Improving our material lives (including not wasting resources) matters.

Re:Why Are Politicians So Obsessed with Manufacturing? by duaneb on Wednesday October 05, 2016 @08:07PM (#12649090)
Hard material science is light years from manufacturing jobs.
Re:Why Are Politicians So Obsessed with Manufacturing? by Inconel on Wednesday October 05, 2016 @09:23PM (#12649405)
While true, aerospace is still probably one of the best skilled labor/manufacturing jobs available. There are quite a few regulations and certifications that need to be followed/held which makes it more difficult/costly to outsource.

In the case of SpaceX or similar companies that fall under ITAR or do classified work, meeting those security requirements is an additional hurdle to outsourcing, although automation will still have an impact.

Re:Why Are Politicians So Obsessed with Manufacturing? by golergka on Wednesday October 05, 2016 @07:33PM (#12648892)
> actively resisted it

Honest question. Is this a reality or a degrading stereotype?

Re:Why Are Politicians So Obsessed with Manufacturing? by sithadmin on Wednesday October 05, 2016 @07:45PM (#12648959)
It's very much a common reality among working-class families of nearly any ethnic background in the USA.

I have plenty of friends and some non-intermediate family members that have reported that their friends and family actively discouraged continuing their education after highschool for one reason or another. In some cases, reasons like "you'll earn more working an honest trade", and "college debt is a scam" are given (in some cases, these may actually be true). In others, things like "do you think you're better than the rest of us?", "that's for white people", and "only f-gs and liberals go to college" are hurled at those that want to continue their education.

And in many cases, it doesn't even take active discouragement to prevent people from wanting to obtain any higher education. I have relatives that live in very small, rural farming towns that have actively resisted attending anything other than the local 2-year junior college, in part because the people that get 4-year degrees never come back to town. They're convinced that they would be betraying their family and friends by getting educated and finding a better living situation.

Re:Why Are Politicians So Obsessed with Manufacturing? by madengr on Wednesday October 05, 2016 @08:18PM (#12649127)
My anecdotes are the opposite. Usually the parents had a job they hated (manufacturing or service sector), and encouraged their kids to attend college.
Re:Why Are Politicians So Obsessed with Manufacturing? by r_smart on Thursday October 06, 2016 @12:24PM (#12653746)
I grew up poor. My father paints houses. He always used to tell me: "Work smarter, not harder."

My roommate hired him to refinish his deck (He owns the house), and every time my father showed up for work and I was working from home, he was thrilled.

My mother is barely literate, never really attended high school. She always read to me, encouraged me to read, and always made money available to buy books. The only things she cared about was me taking education seriously and not saddling myself down with kids too young (which might have backfired because neither I, or my brothers, have any interest in having children, which makes her sad).

I guess I'm just saying: Have another anecdote to add to your collection. But I'd also say, don't think the GP is wrong. Both attitudes exist obviously.

Re:Why Are Politicians So Obsessed with Manufacturing? by titanomachy on Wednesday October 05, 2016 @07:37PM (#12648921)
According to this poll [1], only 6% of Americans see college education as "not too important", and the rest see it as at least "fairly important". If there are people actively resisting education, they are a rather tiny minority.

1: http://www.gallup.com/poll/166490/americans-college-educatio...

Re:Why Are Politicians So Obsessed with Manufacturing? by thesmallestcat on Wednesday October 05, 2016 @07:42PM (#12648944)
The entire comment is an absurd stereotype, and about what you'd expect to find in this forum. Manufacturing jobs weren't (and aren't) filled with a bunch of meatheads coloring by numbers any more than are construction jobs.
Re:Why Are Politicians So Obsessed with Manufacturing? by sithadmin on Wednesday October 05, 2016 @07:57PM (#12649027)
>Manufacturing jobs weren't (and aren't) filled with a bunch of meatheads coloring by numbers any more than are construction jobs.

This is true, but the fact that there are definitely stigmas around higher education in underprivileged and working class communities in the USA is very much a reality.

Re:Why Are Politicians So Obsessed with Manufacturing? by Inconel on Wednesday October 05, 2016 @09:10PM (#12649345)
You're absolutely right that this stigma exists and needs to be challenged but I would add that in my experience one, although certainly not the only, reason for this stigma is that many working class people don't feel that the more educated classes have much respect for the kind of labor they do. I think US society in general views a lot of working class jobs as rather undignified and the stigma against education in these communities is in part an unfortunate reaction to that.
Re:Why Are Politicians So Obsessed with Manufacturing? by noobermin on Wednesday October 05, 2016 @09:38PM (#12649495)
>about what you'd expect to find in this forum

I disagree, you find a diverse set of viewpoints on HN, this isn't representative. The fact that a distillation of r/theredpill dogma is the top comment is upsetting to me, but then again, I have come to expect that when the number of comments exceeds the number of upvotes on a story, such stories are more of a lightning rod of politicizing than it is substantial conversation.

Eventually the up/down votes equalizes it out. There are a couple of interesting comments below this that shock discuss the content of the article and probably will take this comment's place.

Re:Why Are Politicians So Obsessed with Manufacturing? by steven777400 on Thursday October 06, 2016 @12:27AM (#12650246)
I'm sorry you're upset. I regret my original comment, and trying to remove it, today I found out HN doesn't let users delete comments older than a certain small amount of time.
Re:Why Are Politicians So Obsessed with Manufacturing? by jackcosgrove on Thursday October 06, 2016 @09:04AM (#12652064)
The implication that "coastal" people value education more is also a crude stereotype.
Re:Why Are Politicians So Obsessed with Manufacturing? by hasbroslasher on Wednesday October 05, 2016 @08:15PM (#12649113)
Yes, it is real. I'm from a small town in Montana with a strong timber industry presence, and loads of people stick around, largely because their parents want them to stay or because they don't want to leave everything they know. Often times, there's no choice because the kids didn't do well enough to go to "coastal school," nor could they or their parents afford it if they did.

People from cities exhibit this kind of behavior too, but for some reason no one talks about it as negatively as they talk about staying in your shitty rural town after high school.

Re:Why Are Politicians So Obsessed with Manufacturing? by bluedino on Wednesday October 05, 2016 @09:08PM (#12649338)
>> and loads of people stick around, largely because their parents want them to stay or because they don't want to leave everything they know.

We've really fallen as Americans, too eager to stick in one place. 2-3 generations ago many of our ancestors left everything they had in their home country to come here with nothing more than the money in their pockets and shirt on their back.

Re:Why Are Politicians So Obsessed with Manufacturing? by Noos on Thursday October 06, 2016 @02:18AM (#12650583)
Those Americans often suffered from homesickness so bad that it was possible to die from it:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nostalgia#As_a_medical_conditi...

Homesickness: An American History by Susan J Matt is a great book about how it existed in America. The song "Home Sweet Home" is banal to us, but was forbidden to be played during the Civil War because it caused homesickness and desertions.They used to hospitalize people suffering from nostalgia. It could be that bad. the past was nothing like the modern rootlessness we have now.

Re:Why Are Politicians So Obsessed with Manufacturing? by hasbroslasher on Wednesday October 05, 2016 @11:15PM (#12649971)
True. Not saying it's good, just providing some pathology.
Re:Why Are Politicians So Obsessed with Manufacturing? by sjg007 on Wednesday October 05, 2016 @10:49PM (#12649860)
Kids on the coast can inherit their families now $1m house... Meanwhile those that move are forced to save and save and maybe get lucky to buy a house.
Re:Why Are Politicians So Obsessed with Manufacturing? by jcranmer on Wednesday October 05, 2016 @08:37PM (#12649206)
It is probably more stereotype than not. But there is some truth to it: I do know an anecdote of someone who was effectively disowned for daring to go to college. That case is almost certainly on the extreme side of the spectrum, but I wouldn't be quick to discount the fact that some places are actively hostile to the idea of higher education.
Re:Why Are Politicians So Obsessed with Manufacturing? by sharkjacobs on Wednesday October 05, 2016 @08:47PM (#12649241)
It's certainly a generalization, and I think its fair (if recursive) to caution that every generalization is an overgeneralization.

But as far as the "reality" goes, there are certainly personal anecdotes to support it, some about people I personally know.

Re:Why Are Politicians So Obsessed with Manufacturing? by rfrank on Wednesday October 05, 2016 @07:36PM (#12648911)
Definitely a stereotype.
Re:Why Are Politicians So Obsessed with Manufacturing? by walshemj on Thursday October 06, 2016 @06:38AM (#12651382)
I certainly saw this in school in the late 70'sin the UK
Re:Why Are Politicians So Obsessed with Manufacturing? by wildmusings on Wednesday October 05, 2016 @07:36PM (#12648910)
>Which is easy for a coastal educated person to say, but to a line of family men who have not just eschewed education but actively resisted it, this is a tough pill to swallow.

I don't think it's so much a cultural thing as the high intellectual capabilities required for high paying knowledge jobs. Coding, for example, is just too hard for a huge segment of the population, regardless of how much training they get. If you really want to Make America Great Again, you need to make these jobs easier and accessible to more people, thus paying less but employing more. Easier said than done of course.

Within software, Haskell is the wrong direction. I haven't used it, but it seems like Go aims to make coding simpler. But it's not just programming languages; it includes large scale system design, which currently needs to be reinvented with intense effort at every firm, even repeatedly within the same firm, even within the same product.

Re:Why Are Politicians So Obsessed with Manufacturing? by joe_the_user on Wednesday October 05, 2016 @07:57PM (#12649029)
"I don't think it's so much a cultural thing as the high intellectual capabilities required for high paying knowledge jobs. Coding, for example, is just too hard for a huge segment of the population, regardless of how much training they get."

Maybe but it doesn't matter that much. If some breakthrough in education made it easy for 60% of the population to become good quality coders, it would lower the wages of existing programmers, somewhat increase the pool of working programmers but not give that 60% good jobs.

The type of coding done at Uber, for example, is specifically valuable because it replaces the lower paid labor of other people. We can't all have jobs automating each other out of jobs, now can we?

Re:Why Are Politicians So Obsessed with Manufacturing? by euyyn on Wednesday October 05, 2016 @08:38PM (#12649210)
I work on developer tools, with the explicit long-term goal to automate developers out of their job, and we need all hands we can get :)
Re:Why Are Politicians So Obsessed with Manufacturing? by joe_the_user on Thursday October 06, 2016 @12:08AM (#12650178)
1) Developer tools don't really eliminate jobs, not any time soon, not in way a robot can entirely eliminate a line welder position or a self-driving car could eliminate a taxi driver position.

2) Sure, you need all the hands you can get in the current market. Still, you wouldn't hire a ten thousand new developers tomorrow even if ten thousand people as competent as your most competent lead developers showed up on your doorstep tomorrow.

Re:Why Are Politicians So Obsessed with Manufacturing? by euyyn on Thursday October 06, 2016 @02:12AM (#12650565)
The current market is precisely that there's so much low-hanging fruit in automating a developer job that we aren't going to entirely eliminate developer jobs any time soon; and hence why any new pair of hands helps.

The tech companies in SV told the Obama administration that if they gave a million more H1Bs to engineers, they'd hire them all. And plenty of them put resources on improving developer tools.

Re:Why Are Politicians So Obsessed with Manufacturing? by thesmallestcat on Wednesday October 05, 2016 @07:38PM (#12648925)
TIL that the React ecosystem is a conspiracy against the poor.
Re:Why Are Politicians So Obsessed with Manufacturing? by vertex-four on Thursday October 06, 2016 @06:06AM (#12651295)
You realise that something can have bad outcomes for a given group without anyone intentionally seeking those outcomes, yes?
Re:Why Are Politicians So Obsessed with Manufacturing? by thesmallestcat on Thursday October 06, 2016 @07:10PM (#12656899)
Yes, it was a joke.
Re:Why Are Politicians So Obsessed with Manufacturing? by wildmusings on Wednesday October 05, 2016 @07:43PM (#12648952)
It's interesting really. Systems that give you more flexibility and power might make good engineers more productive, while making many more mediocre engineers less productive. Of course, the former largely drive these innovations.

I've been out of web dev for a while now, but React's one way state to UI concept actually seems like an amazing simplification.

Re:Why Are Politicians So Obsessed with Manufacturing? by bluedino on Wednesday October 05, 2016 @09:11PM (#12649354)
>> you need to make these jobs easier and accessible to more people, thus paying less but employing more.

Wouldn't a greater number of coders with lower abilities not work very well? Today's 10x programmers would become 20x or 50x

Re:Why Are Politicians So Obsessed with Manufacturing? by 2AF3 on Wednesday October 05, 2016 @08:49PM (#12649246)
Not sure which coastal school gave you the social grace to act like this...
Re:Why Are Politicians So Obsessed with Manufacturing? by madengr on Wednesday October 05, 2016 @07:49PM (#12648983)
"Coastal educated"? Nice stereotyping there.