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Re:There's no easy way to say this by sulam on Tuesday October 04, 2016 @06:33PM (#12640148)
At the risk of repeating a comment I made further down in a thread, the average QA Engineer salary in Mexico is literally 10X more than one of these devs was making. Anyone trying to justify this in terms of the Mexican minimum wage is trying to sell you ocean front property in Arizona.
Re:There's no easy way to say this by Zyst on Tuesday October 04, 2016 @07:35PM (#12640522)
Aye, copy pasting a comment I posted below:

I live in Mexico, I've never seen anyone in Mexico make minimum wage, ever. And I do know people from all walks of life.

As to what they earn, again, I live in Mexico, I am employed by a Mexican company, and work for Mexican clients. I make their yearly salary in 15 days or so. It really is disgusting that they would treat employees this way, specially when they were such a big success.

Re:There's no easy way to say this by lazaroclapp on Tuesday October 04, 2016 @07:51PM (#12640605)
I am probably one of those comments below "justifying it in terms of the minimum wage". Quite honestly, a big part is that I read it as $2,400 USD a month originally (not yearly!). Even if that had been the case, I wouldn't have faulted developers for feeling underpaid in the particular case of KSP (given how big of a success the game ended up being).

As yearly salary it is indeed atrocious. Still, worth saying, not an illegal salary. But yeah, I don't see many people enticed to work for that amount for a for-profit company they don't have significant ownership of. The point is not on whether or not it is advisable to resign in those conditions (of course it is), but on whether it is viable to sue (I doubt it is).

And... many people in Mexico do make minimum wage (around 13% of the country does), but usually not anyone in a specialized profession in a city.

Re:There's no easy way to say this by eropple on Tuesday October 04, 2016 @08:19PM (#12640731)
> Still, worth saying, not an illegal salary.

"This is so shitty that the nicest thing that can be said is it's not actually illegal" doesn't merit the exculpatory nature of this sentence. And the sentiment behind it isn't really worth much in the first place.

Re:There's no easy way to say this by lazaroclapp on Tuesday October 04, 2016 @08:46PM (#12640839)
I did never meant to say that made it a good/reasonable thing (although, if we are going down that path, why is it right to pay someone $200 a month to clean toilets and not to write code? If anything, it is a shittier thing - pun intended - to offer that deal to people who don't have the means and options to refuse or get other jobs... but I suspect we would both end up agreeing that the Mexican minimum wage should be higher). My point is that there is likely no legal recourse here, which is an important detail.
Re:There's no easy way to say this by drdeca on Wednesday October 05, 2016 @02:03AM (#12641835)
How does that compare to the similar argument when people bring up free speech (and a person responds that if the best defense is that the government can't make it illegal, etc.)
Re:There's no easy way to say this by eropple on Wednesday October 05, 2016 @03:36AM (#12642129)
That's pretty much exactly my argument in those cases, too. The government not finding a piece of speech so objectionable as to be criminal is a far cry from a positive moral defense of its existence.
Re:There's no easy way to say this by MawNicker on Tuesday October 04, 2016 @08:34PM (#12640793)
"The sentiment behind it" is yours.
Re:There's no easy way to say this by ido on Tuesday October 04, 2016 @08:28PM (#12640770)
Iirc people ran with that figure...but it was actually given by just one of the employees, who was a 16 year old they got to do "community support".

We dont know how much the coders were making.

Re:There's no easy way to say this by lazaroclapp on Tuesday October 04, 2016 @08:49PM (#12640853)
Interestingly, Mexican law does put a series of restrictions on employing 16 year olds, so that part might be actually illegal (specially if it's full time work, or anything above 6 hours per day).
Re:There's no easy way to say this by sandworm101 on Tuesday October 04, 2016 @08:49PM (#12640849)
>> Still, worth saying, not an illegal salary.

Much of that depends on specifics. Some of these devs traveled. Any work done while in other jurisdictions must have been done at local minimum wages. It doesn't take many days spent on the road promoting KSP in the US before you are legally entitled to more.

There are prosecuted cases of offshore firms sending below-minimum workers into the US. It is a crime.

Re:There's no easy way to say this by lazaroclapp on Tuesday October 04, 2016 @08:56PM (#12640883)
That's interesting to know. Guess my mental model was "this is work that can be done anywhere on earth, for a Mexican company under Mexican laws, so where the employee is should not matter legally", but if the location of the employee had anything to do with the work they were asked to perform... e.g. go to this event and promote our game, then it should indeed be illegal.
Re:There's no easy way to say this by sandworm101 on Tuesday October 04, 2016 @09:06PM (#12640928)
There are a few jurisdictions that take it to another level. Some governments will sue on behalf of the aggrieved employee. There it is a government taking action to recoup funds and any assigned penalties, not an employee. Third parties (is Valve/steam) can also be sued if they hold funds/property.

(From British Columbia, a typical such jurisdiction.)

"If a third party is or will be indebted to a person who is required to pay money under a determination, the Branch may demand that the third party pay all or part of their indebtedness directly to the Branch."

"The Branch may seize personal or business assets of a person required to pay under a determination, settlement agreement or order to satisfy the amount owing and the costs of the seizure. The Branch may direct the Court Bailiff to seize assets to recover the amount owing. "

http://www2.gov.bc.ca/gov/content/employment-business/employ...

Re:There's no easy way to say this by dmichulke on Wednesday October 05, 2016 @01:33AM (#12641749)
At the risk oft stating the obvious:

The devs agreed voluntarily to accept this salary for a number of years. It is not ours to judge whether this it was too small, because for them it was not (until now)

Likewise, if you insist on "this salary is too small for them", you're saying that you know better what's good for them than they themselves. I would find that offensive.

Re:There's no easy way to say this by thomasz on Wednesday October 05, 2016 @02:09AM (#12641850)
We don't have to judge for them. They left. In a very public way.
Re:There's no easy way to say this by adventured on Wednesday October 05, 2016 @01:36AM (#12641755)
"One in seven Mexican workers earn the average minimum wage of 65.58 pesos ($5.10) a day or less, national statistics office INEGI says."

Also worth noting that at least half of Mexico's population lives below their own poverty line.

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-mexico-economy-analysis-id...

Re:There's no easy way to say this by whack on Tuesday October 04, 2016 @08:34PM (#12640792)
I'm probably missing some back story here. Why did the developers agree to work for such low salaries? If they accepted the job knowing how much they will be paid, why are they upset about it now?
Re:There's no easy way to say this by CydeWeys on Tuesday October 04, 2016 @08:52PM (#12640865)
Because things change over time? There's a big difference between accepting a job at a low salary, and then staying on after awhile at that low salary with no raises, when you realize just how hard the working conditions are, and that you aren't saving any money while your friends are making steps in their financial lives and careers. This is basic at-will employment; you're free to decide you on longer want to do it at any point. I don't understand why you think that just because they initially accepted it, they should be OK with it indefinitely.
Re:There's no easy way to say this by whack on Tuesday October 04, 2016 @09:13PM (#12640951)
I never said they should be OK with it indefinitely. If I was in their shoes, I would have just quit immediately. But I wouldn't accuse my employer of bad behavior either.

Many of the other comments seem to be accusing the employer of acting in bad faith, or of immoral behavior. If the employees knew exactly what they were getting into, these accusations seem baseless.

Re:There's no easy way to say this by CydeWeys on Tuesday October 04, 2016 @09:29PM (#12641005)
It sounds like Squad was taking advantage of employees by forcing them to work very long hours. That's definitely bad behavior. Maybe you or I would quit immediately, but a lot of people don't. They still have a right to complain about it when they finally do get around to quitting. I just don't understand why you are going after the employees. What point does it serve? We know that burnout, being overworked, and being taken advantage of is a huge problem in this industry, so why go after the victims?
Re:There's no easy way to say this by eric_cc on Tuesday October 04, 2016 @11:21PM (#12641324)
The guy you're replying to isn't going after anybody. You seem like you're just looking for a fight to make some point.
Re:There's no easy way to say this by CydeWeys on Tuesday October 04, 2016 @11:32PM (#12641366)
I disagree. I think he's unjustly going after the employees, or even if that isn't his intent, that's how it's coming off. I felt like I needed to speak up for them, because as an employee myself, I would hate to speak up about bad conditions in the workplace only to be dismissed by someone who knows little about the situation saying "But he knew what he signed up for, why is he complaining?"
Re:There's no easy way to say this by whack on Wednesday October 05, 2016 @07:10AM (#12642903)
To repeat what Eric said, I'm not "going after" anybody, particularly not the employees. They didn't like their working conditions, so they quit. Absolutely nothing wrong with what they did. My original post was mainly driven by confusion: many commenters talked about their yearly salary as though it is abnormally low. Hence my confusion about why these programmers would accept a job with an abnormally low salary.

Regarding immoral behavior on the part of the employer: I still don't buy that either. Someone can be a bad employer (ie, one that i would never want to work for), and still be perfectly morally upstanding. If someone, in a competitive labor marketplace, takes on a job which has low pay, I don't think they can accuse their employer of immoral behavior because of low pay. Such accusations should be saved for those scums that pull a bait-and-switch and refuse to honor their promises.

Re:There's no easy way to say this by CydeWeys on Wednesday October 05, 2016 @08:44AM (#12643291)
The disconnect here is that abysmal working conditions are a huge issue to me, and that the mere existence of them means that an employer is not morally upstanding. Employers have obligations to their employees to treat them well and fairly, and when those obligations are not met, I think people should both change jobs and speak up to save others from entering that same situation at their previous job.

Squad is taking advantage of its developers. There's no other way to put it. It's over-working them with massive crunch times (that may not have been communicated clearly to job seekers up front) and paying them a very tiny fraction of what they could be earning elsewhere. Who knows how much of that is related to false promises. A lot of scummy employers will say things like "The pay will go up after an introductory period", or "We'll give you a raise soon", and then it never happens. Maybe it happened here. We don't know until we listen to the employees' stories. That's why my first instinct is not to look for reasons why it's their fault.

Re:There's no easy way to say this by Chronic9q on Wednesday October 05, 2016 @06:42AM (#12642813)
By accepting the job, you should know exactly what you signed up for. Just like "you should know" all laws directly relevant to your life.
Re:There's no easy way to say this by Dylan16807 on Wednesday October 05, 2016 @02:03AM (#12641836)
If it's "baseless" to accuse the employer of acting in bad faith, then those poor working conditions are either an utter accident or the fault of the employees' decisions.

And working conditions are not an accident.

Re:There's no easy way to say this by tropo on Tuesday October 04, 2016 @09:07PM (#12640935)
because games

It's no different from people choosing a career in early childhood education. Some people insist on doing what they love, ignoring ugly financial issues caused by supply and demand.

Re:There's no easy way to say this by owlieowl on Tuesday October 04, 2016 @11:02PM (#12641280)
+1
Re:There's no easy way to say this by doozy on Tuesday October 04, 2016 @09:11PM (#12640946)
Knowing Latin America: Lack of credentials and opportunities.

People take very stupid decisions when they are desperate.

Re:There's no easy way to say this by amyjess on Wednesday October 05, 2016 @02:43PM (#12646581)
I can't speak for the devs, but there are a few possible reasons:

- Working on games is their dream job. They want to do it so much they'd do it for free.

- Long-term unemployment makes one desperate. I have personal experience with this: I once took a job that offered no benefits and low pay because I had been unemployed for two years and was desperate for a job.

- For the same reasons people don't get out of abusive relationships ASAP. They come to believe they deserve the abuse. Again, personal experience: working at a company with low pay and abusive management convinced me I wasn't cut out for anything better, and it was a long time before I broke free of that mental trap and eventually sought employment elsewhere.

- They think that the low pay is temporary and that it'll go up when the product takes off. And then the employer keeps delaying the salary increases by moving the goalposts. Hey, another trap I've fallen into... (and yes, all of my personal experience comes from the same company)

Re:There's no easy way to say this by ralonso on Tuesday October 04, 2016 @10:14PM (#12641154)
>I live in Mexico, I've never seen anyone in Mexico make minimum wage, ever. And I do know people from all walks of life.

Sorry, but have you really met actual working class people that work in "maquilas"? It is not uncommon to see people earning around 600 MXN pesos a week which is barely enough to count as minimum wage.

Re:There's no easy way to say this by geezerjay on Wednesday October 05, 2016 @08:02AM (#12643089)
> Sorry, but have you really met actual working class people that work in "maquilas"?

I'm sure they aren't paid to work on international software projects.

Re:There's no easy way to say this by Kurtz79 on Wednesday October 05, 2016 @10:18AM (#12643988)
The (grand)parent claim was about people "from all walks of life".
Re:There's no easy way to say this by coldtea on Wednesday October 05, 2016 @01:25AM (#12641732)
>I live in Mexico, I've never seen anyone in Mexico make minimum wage, ever. And I do know people from all walks of life.

Hmm, there are dead poor people in Mexico and even the US, including people that make less than minimum wage (from part time gigs they can manage to find, etc).

Re:There's no easy way to say this by quickly on Tuesday October 04, 2016 @07:40PM (#12640544)
I don't know the backstory. Where were these guys based out of? How could Mexican wages be 10x higher than theirs?
Re:There's no easy way to say this by dandelany on Tuesday October 04, 2016 @07:49PM (#12640590)
Mexico City.
Re:There's no easy way to say this by realworldview on Wednesday October 05, 2016 @11:14AM (#12644492)
Arizona sea-view condo? Sign me up!