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Re:Amazon bans incentivized reviews tied to free or discount... by in_me_i_trust on Monday October 03, 2016 @05:44PM (#12631594)
> Next they need to get rid of grouping reviews for different product versions.

This is huge. It seems to be a common tactic for companies to get a product's rating up to 4.5 stars, then replace it with a lower quality version. I notice only when I filter for the most recent reviews.

Re:Amazon bans incentivized reviews tied to free or discount... by chias on Monday October 03, 2016 @06:51PM (#12632009)
I think this is a slightly different issue, which first entered widespread public discussion in the SSD market.

Basically Kingston (I think?) and a few others released a new SSD and used very high quality components in them, so that they exceeded advertised specification. After the early-adopter reviews came in with the benchmarks and whatnot, they altered the build to use lower quality / cheaper components. When discovered and confronted, their argument was that the lower quality builds still met spec, so it was appropriate to sell it under the old model number and listings, but the upshot was that they got to produce low quality products while benefiting from reviews and benchmarks that were run against a higher quality product.

I don't think there's much Amazon can do about this particular issue... although yes it would be a great help if you didn't see reviews for the 900x version of something while looking at the 1x version page.

Re:Amazon bans incentivized reviews tied to free or discount... by ekianjo on Monday October 03, 2016 @06:59PM (#12632061)
Steam handles that problem by showing two scores for the item (games in their case): the total score, and the "past 30days" score. This way you can see if something is going wrong recently.
Re:Amazon bans incentivized reviews tied to free or discount... by chias on Monday October 03, 2016 @07:00PM (#12632065)
I love that mechanic. I think it's a lot more in the forefront with things like software that gets auto-updated, where the publisher pushes an unfortunate patch, or fails to follow through on a promise which was previously given the benefit of the doubt. I don't think physical products have yet caught up to the idea that this notion is relevant to them as well.

The especially difficult part when it comes to reviews for physical products in that it just isn't sexy to benchmark an old piece of hardware. What makes the situation even worse is that most reviews aren't centralized (that is, you google "productname reviews") and so to a large extent the visibility goes to whoever publishes first. Your brand new benchmark announcement gets clobbered by the pagerank of the reviews that happened right when everyone was interested in the product.

Re:Amazon bans incentivized reviews tied to free or discount... by ropeladder on Monday October 03, 2016 @07:47PM (#12632316)
I had long assumed that Valve added the "past 30 days" aggregate to show when games had improved rather than gotten worse. (i.e. early access games) Kind of interesting that it helps clarify changes in both ways, and implies very different incentives for the game publishers/sellers.
Re:Amazon bans incentivized reviews tied to free or discount... by Taek on Monday October 03, 2016 @07:01PM (#12632072)
It's a poor argument and they are misleading their customers. You don't buy on the specification you buy on the reputation. If $creditable_reviewer says it's one of the best drives they've ever used, you are going to go for it.

When you buy the exact same product and end up with something that has substantially lower quality parts than what the reviewer had, you've been defrauded.

Edit: it hurts the reviewer too, as I now have reasonable evidence that $review_body is unreliable. If the fraud never comes to light, I may stop using they publisher's reviews.

Re:Amazon bans incentivized reviews tied to free or discount... by chias on Monday October 03, 2016 @07:53PM (#12632335)
Poor in what sense?

People were certainly mad about it, but the companies didn't have to face a lawsuit, so as far as they were concerned it seems like it was a great argument :-\

> When you buy the exact same product and end up with something that has substantially lower quality parts than what the reviewer had, you've been defrauded.

How exactly do you define "substantially"? No matter where you draw the line, you'll get people who will toe it and that will be legal. And in any case it's very hard to argue fraud when the company itself didn't tell you that the device was that good. You'd just get companies (rightly) saying that they aren't responsible for purchasing decisions you made based on things that third parties have said.

From someone like Amazon's perspective, it's also not reasonable to declare that absolutely no changes can be made to a product to keep it under the same listing, which is really the only way you can make this a black-and-white issue. It would also be doing consumers a disservice if every time a trivial thing changed (e.g. logo placement on the box, or the manufacturer adds an extra screw to make the body stronger, or whatever) the entire history of reviews and ratings got reset. So the best solution we have right now is to say "look man, don't be an ass"... and unsurprisingly, people who want to be an ass are more than happy to disregard this in order to make an undeserved buck.

Re:Amazon bans incentivized reviews tied to free or discount... by caf on Monday October 03, 2016 @10:11PM (#12632859)
There's another solution, which is that reviewers who find that their good review is being used to flog a substantially worse product (and in this case, the reviewer themselves gets to determine what is substantial) disown/update that review and/or refuse to review that manufacturer's products in the future.
Re:Amazon bans incentivized reviews tied to free or discount... by grogenaut on Tuesday October 04, 2016 @12:41AM (#12633387)
that would require a lot of thought and tracking on reviewers part that I'm not sure most reviewers would care to do. Esp since it's for the benefit of others (amazon/manuf) and not themselves. If you pay them then you throw off the balance.
Re:Amazon bans incentivized reviews tied to free or discount... by crottypeter on Tuesday October 04, 2016 @03:38AM (#12633905)
Also, it would be too late!
Re:Amazon bans incentivized reviews tied to free or discount... by skybrian on Monday October 03, 2016 @07:17PM (#12632170)
From a few things I've read, I don't think this is specific to Kingston. It's apparently pretty common for offshore factories to optimize for cost while keeping the product apparently the same.

There is a principal-agent problem. The company whose brand is on the line needs to be diligent about catching it in QA.

I seem to remember reading somewhere that Walmart will ask the manufacturer to build a special lower-quality version of the same item to keep costs down. So a direct price comparison can be misleading.

Re:Amazon bans incentivized reviews tied to free or discount... by TeMPOraL on Monday October 03, 2016 @08:40PM (#12632531)
Yeah, I wonder if it's always the fault of the brand, actually.

I remember that during the FTDI fiascos[0] one of the often-raised complaint is that many vendors don't even know they're using fake FTDI chips, because it's the factory that decides to replace the genuine chip with a counterfeit to cut down on costs.

Then again, a cynic in me sees this as a plausible deniability scenario - the brand can always say that they didn't know about the component switchup, "it's that Chinese factory that did it, and we're investigating!".

[0] - FTDI supplies the most popular USB-to-serial chips, which are present in pretty much any USB-connected device you have; on two instances they released driver updates that detected and bricked devices with counterfeit USB-to-serial chips.

Re:Amazon bans incentivized reviews tied to free or discount... by caf on Monday October 03, 2016 @10:14PM (#12632883)
There's a fine line here between "counterfeit" and "clone". It's only a counterfeit if it's sold as a genuine FTDI part.
Re:Amazon bans incentivized reviews tied to free or discount... by thaumasiotes on Tuesday October 04, 2016 @05:00AM (#12634184)
Gomorrah ( https://www.amazon.com/dp/0312427794/ ) has an interesting discussion of the workings of the fashion industry in Italy. It goes like so:

1. A fashion label invites a bunch of clothing manufacturers to a pricing auction. They all meet somewhere.

2. The representative of the label describes the clothing they want. The manufacturers bid for the contract, with bids taking the form "X many items within Y period of time at Z cost". For example, 800 items / 20 euros per item / 1 month.

3. Eventually, the brand will accept a bid. At that point, every manufacturer may commit to fulfilling it. Any manufacturer accepting the winning bid is given the material for free.

4. Whoever delivers first gets paid. Everyone else is left with a partially-complete order that they can no longer sell to the brand that commissioned it.

(4a. Manufacturers who show a history of accepting bids for the free fabric and then failing to deliver get blacklisted.)

5a. The brand sews its label onto the clothes it bought and sells them at "high" prices.

5b. The slower manufacturers may sell their too-slow clothes to the mafia, which sews a counterfeit label onto them and sells them at "low" prices.

So now we have the mafia selling "counterfeit" clothing that would have been "real", if only it had taken a little less time to create. The fabric and cut are to brand specifications because the clothes were made at the brand's direction to bear their fancy label. Would you call those clothes counterfeit?

Re:Amazon bans incentivized reviews tied to free or discount... by hyperbovine on Monday October 03, 2016 @10:36PM (#12632954)
Bose totally did this with their MIE line of headphones. I bought a pair right when they were introduced. They seemed very well made and I loved them. Sadly, that pair got stolen. The next pair was the same but... different. Several pieces just seemed flimsier, cheaper. The cord was a bit thinner, the plastic remote was creaky, earbuds felt were less substantial, etc. Melted that pair on a radiator, unfortunately. On to pair #3. Everything feels cheap, which is annoying when you spend $120 on a pair of earbuds. Cord leading from the remote to the earpiece is approximately the thickness of dental floss and breaks inside of 6 months. No more Bose for me.
Re:Amazon bans incentivized reviews tied to free or discount... by wpietri on Tuesday October 04, 2016 @12:24AM (#12633332)
This gets at an important point in the Lean Manufacturing philosophy. The typical business chases profits and works to reduce costs. But Lean businesses focus on delivering value while reducing waste. For your headphones, somebody was cutting costs without regard to value vs waste.

I think one of the reasons this is so common that anybody can cut costs. ("Your budget next year is 10% lower. Make it work!") But it takes thoughtful experts to discover and eliminate waste.

Re:Amazon bans incentivized reviews tied to free or discount... by WalterBright on Tuesday October 04, 2016 @06:57AM (#12634614)
> It's apparently pretty common for offshore factories to optimize for cost while keeping the product apparently the same.

It's called "value engineering" and is commonplace in every business. It's like taking working code, and then optimizing it over time. Finding ways to cut costs goes on all the time, and it does not necessarily imply cutting quality.

Re:Amazon bans incentivized reviews tied to free or discount... by bobajeff on Monday October 03, 2016 @10:19PM (#12632897)
If they are caught they could:

* Drop the product from the store completely.

* Put a Warning Misleading Listing stamp on the listing.

* Penalize the seller in the results.

Re:Amazon bans incentivized reviews tied to free or discount... by WalterBright on Tuesday October 04, 2016 @06:54AM (#12634604)
Add a negative "age" score that slowly increases over time, like how reddit articles are ranked. This will bias the average ratings towards newer reviews. This can also be done in the algorithm that decides which reviews to showcase.
Re:Amazon bans incentivized reviews tied to free or discount... by Alupis on Monday October 03, 2016 @06:17PM (#12631820)
> It seems to be a common tactic for companies to get a product's rating up to 4.5 stars, then replace it with a lower quality version

What you are likely seeing is not a seller "pump-n-dump" scheme.

Rather, it's more likely another seller came along and "attached" to the good listing - except they are selling a knock-off product of worse quality. Often these sellers are from overseas, but not always.

Amazon rotates the "Buy Box" (the "Add to Cart" button) winner on a "percentage-share" basis - meaning if there are 5 sellers attached to a listing, and all stats on the seller accounts are equal (volume sold, number of positive feedbacks, account history, etc...), then each seller will get 1/5th of the buy box time. When certain sellers are "stronger" than others (meaning their stats), they get a larger percentage of the buy box time. You can see this sometimes if you refresh the page several times while on a product page. The "Sold by xxxxx" may change.

So, it's likely some cheap knock-off seller has attached to a "hot" product listing, and simply based on Amazon's Buy Box system, they will get a certain percentage of sales. Unfortunately, this can ruin a perfectly good listing for the other sellers who sell the legitimate product, and is difficult to combat.

It pays to pay attention to a seller's own feedback rating. Not just how many stars on average, but more importantly the recent 30 day trend for their feedback ratings, as well as the number of total feedbacks, since it will give an idea of seller volume (most sellers average about <10% of orders leaving order feedback, and usually <1% leaving product feedback - my company has sold on Amazon for the past 7 years, and we seem to stay right in line with what other sellers expect as well).

Re:Amazon bans incentivized reviews tied to free or discount... by tesseract on Monday October 03, 2016 @09:40PM (#12632754)
There are also Amazon listings where they have completely different products sharing the same page, using the UI that is normally intended for color/size/quantity selection. The reviews get mixed together and it can be difficult to tell which review is intended for which product. It would help if Amazon added fields to the review to indicate which variant the review was written for. Filtering would be even better.
Re:Amazon bans incentivized reviews tied to free or discount... by Pxtl on Monday October 03, 2016 @10:07PM (#12632848)
Or just boot terrible sellers off the Amazon store and stop being AliExpress.
Re:Amazon bans incentivized reviews tied to free or discount... by makomk on Tuesday October 04, 2016 @05:45AM (#12634345)
This is unfair to AliExpress. Unlike Amazon, they know better than to mix reviews for products from completely different sellers.
Re:Amazon bans incentivized reviews tied to free or discount... by voltagex_ on Tuesday October 04, 2016 @12:57AM (#12633426)
The problem is, the "terrible" sellers are back on Amazon the next day under a different name/brand.
Re:Amazon bans incentivized reviews tied to free or discount... by Pxtl on Tuesday October 04, 2016 @05:29PM (#12639652)
So spin off a secondary site for the bazaar and protect the Amazon brand for selling quality stuff and only include the top-quality sellers on the main Amazon brand.
Re:Amazon bans incentivized reviews tied to free or discount... by wnevets on Monday October 03, 2016 @05:47PM (#12631619)
There been many occasions where I didnt buy something because of this very reason.
Re:Amazon bans incentivized reviews tied to free or discount... by abawany on Monday October 03, 2016 @06:30PM (#12631913)
Exactly. I tend to filter by critical reviews (with the default sort of recent) and that often gets the noise down to a manageable level.
Re:Amazon bans incentivized reviews tied to free or discount... by nommm-nommm on Monday October 03, 2016 @08:53PM (#12632594)
This may also be a third party seller selling fakes.