News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:What HP Must Do to Make Amends for Its Self-Destructing P... by makecheck on Tuesday September 27, 2016 @10:59AM (#12590056)
Printer cartridges are emblematic of the (sadly widespread) tendency for companies to build things that are obviously wasteful, and clear alternatives should be available.

Every time you have to “throw away” something that looks 70% reusable (or in the case of printer ink, not even fully empty), it’s aggravating. We really need to push all companies to build reuse deeply into their products so that none of them feels pressured to go that route just to stay competitive. And if competition is not an issue, and it really is just a scam for more money, executives need to be going to jail.

It is not hard to imagine a slightly modified printer cartridge that saves virtually all of the electronics and casing, and just plugs in a new ink pod; or, one that has a “gas tank” kind of port where you can add more ink. They just need to do it.

Re:What HP Must Do to Make Amends for Its Self-Destructing P... by anexprogrammer on Tuesday September 27, 2016 @12:13PM (#12590689)
It's a facet of current business. They're ALL trying to give us subscriptions for everything. The "subscription" created by the Gillette safety razor wasn't outrageously priced or terribly wasteful compared to modern blades, and was a fairly good idea over cut-throat razors.

Modern product (as opposed to service) subscriptions exist to extract more cash from the consumer rather than a real tangible benefit (I don't count the marketing benefit). Printer ink (especially HP as the ink cartridge usually contains the print head too), coffee pods (complete with DRM!), air fresheners (at least one brand has DRM here too), sealed laptop and phone batteries and dozens of others are designed to get lock in and more sales/profit. Other industries and products are adopting the same model.

Ties in well with the materials used in consumer products to ensure they need periodic replacement. eg 60s Hoovers were rubbish, but could easily last 50 years, current Hoovers are far better vacuums thanks to Dyson, but are near (or past) end of life by 5 years as the plastic is disintigrating. They're often real terms cheaper, but now objectively too cheap, and there's no better made alternative offered. Even premium brands are now "cheap".

It's a profligate waste of money, packaging and environment. If a product isn't under this model it's easy to get the feeling it's only because they haven't figured out how to get away with it yet.

I'd prefer a saner balance on most of these things.

Re:What HP Must Do to Make Amends for Its Self-Destructing P... by zwieback on Tuesday September 27, 2016 @11:52AM (#12590501)
I've spent the last 16 years at HP in inkjet printhead manufacturing and R&D. Roughly speaking, we've come up with two models:

- disposable cartridges with printheads (what most people have at home), here we have to recoup the cost of the disposed silicon printhead and the low initial price of the printer

- permanent printheads (what you're asking for) and disposable ink "tanks" of various capacities, here the challenge is to make sure the printhead doesn't get ruined before the printer gets replaced. Third party ink can be a contributing factor to printhead health

We now also have an ink-subscription model where you pay at some anticipated level of ink use and you get a replacement cartridge when we think you need it.

Re:What HP Must Do to Make Amends for Its Self-Destructing P... by Nursie on Tuesday September 27, 2016 @12:41PM (#12590924)
Apparently a third and more sensible way is possible in the Indian market though, with the HP DeskJet GT printers, which have refillable reservoir tanks (not even disposable!)

Yet somewhow they aren't offered for sale in Europe?

Instead we get the subscription model, which involves yet more data (printer usage, ink levels) disappearing off to someone else's servers.

Re:What HP Must Do to Make Amends for Its Self-Destructing P... by zwieback on Tuesday September 27, 2016 @02:28PM (#12591780)
Didn't even know about that model, thanks for pointing it out. Clearly we're trying out different business models in different markets.
Re:What HP Must Do to Make Amends for Its Self-Destructing P... by limeyx on Tuesday October 04, 2016 @08:15PM (#12640711)
Or maybe people in India wont put up with the sort of crap we somehow do here in the US
Re:What HP Must Do to Make Amends for Its Self-Destructing P... by anexprogrammer on Tuesday September 27, 2016 @12:32PM (#12590851)
Obviously I'm older, but I'd prefer to pay a little more, and give you some profit, for a printer that's built to last, with some metal, rather than <£100 for a near cost pile of fragile plastic as the foundation of my ink subscription - with ink cartridges that seem to get smaller but more expensive with each passing year.

Then pay a reasonable price for cartridge with printhead ongoing, otherwise, if I'm successful keeping the printer as long as possible, I'm still recouping the low cost of the printer long past the point I bought enough ink to do so.

I don't need high throughput, heavy duty, as I don't print that much any more, so buying from the business range isn't usually sensible.

Re:What HP Must Do to Make Amends for Its Self-Destructing P... by wvenable on Tuesday September 27, 2016 @01:22PM (#12591266)
I bought a color laser printer for a few hundred bucks and despite almost never having to print anything it's one of the better purchases I've made.

It just works. It's not wasteful. And it won't dry out from lack of use. I figure I'll break even over buying ink-jet printers and cartridges in another year or so. Even if everything costs more in short term, it's so much less wasteful.

Re:What HP Must Do to Make Amends for Its Self-Destructing P... by EvanAnderson on Tuesday September 27, 2016 @01:52PM (#12591511)
Same here. Purchased a workgroup color laser almost 7 years ago. My printing volume is fairly low (around 500 pages / year) and I'm still on the original set of cartridges. The amortized cost of this printer has been amazing-- under $75 / year. It uses the PCL protocol and has an Ethernet connection, so it's a long way off from practical obsolescence, too. I'll likely be using this printer in another 7 years.
Re:What HP Must Do to Make Amends for Its Self-Destructing P... by brokenmachine on Wednesday September 28, 2016 @12:17AM (#12595389)
I tried to do the same thing but bought a cheap <$100 mono laser. I pretty much never print, maybe a page a month, if that.

It's only a year old and now it won't suck up the paper properly. I have to literally stick my hands into it and feed the paper in page-by-page.

The thing has successfully printed less than 20 pages and it's already not working.

It's 2016 and Samsung can't make a rubber roller that works. And I don't want to buy another just to have the same thing happen.

Re:What HP Must Do to Make Amends for Its Self-Destructing P... by wvenable on Thursday September 29, 2016 @05:59PM (#12609133)
I spent about $400 -- I figure a sub $100 laser printer is much the same thing as buying a cheap inkjet.
Re:What HP Must Do to Make Amends for Its Self-Destructing P... by brokenmachine on Thursday September 29, 2016 @10:09PM (#12610132)
I wrongfully assumed that an appliance manufactured and sold to perform a single task would be able to perform that task.

That was a mistake.

Re:What HP Must Do to Make Amends for Its Self-Destructing P... by wvenable on Friday September 30, 2016 @11:40AM (#12613102)
I think this whole thread is about how that's a mistake! You get what you pay for and cheap printers are crap; they're so cheap they're virtually useless.
Re:What HP Must Do to Make Amends for Its Self-Destructing P... by intrasight on Tuesday September 27, 2016 @02:24PM (#12591750)
Don't new color laser printers use cartridges? They just have toner instead of ink.
Re:What HP Must Do to Make Amends for Its Self-Destructing P... by wvenable on Tuesday September 27, 2016 @03:52PM (#12592533)
Yeah they do. But they don't dry out which is one of the big reasons every time I had to print I needed a new cartridge.
Re:What HP Must Do to Make Amends for Its Self-Destructing P... by jlgaddis on Tuesday September 27, 2016 @03:26PM (#12592319)
I worked at a .edu for years and we had several of those old, early LaserJets that worked for years, spitting out hundreds of thousands -- even millions, in a few cases -- of printed pages, with nothing more than the occasional change of toner cartridge.
Re:What HP Must Do to Make Amends for Its Self-Destructing P... by sperglord on Tuesday September 27, 2016 @06:04PM (#12593615)
Those laserjets don't have print heads like an inkjet printer does.
Re:What HP Must Do to Make Amends for Its Self-Destructing P... by initram on Tuesday September 27, 2016 @01:40PM (#12591423)
I'm mostly in the same boat as you. However, I have found that with electronics, you run the risk of your beloved older piece of equipment not even being able to connect to your newer equipment because it doesn't have the latest connector (SCSI, Firewire, USB-2, USB-3, USB-C, Thunderbolt, Lightning, VGA, XGA, DVI, Mini-Display Port, HDMI, composite, component, etc.). On top of that, you have the issue of drivers and apps that can talk to the thing, too. Not as bad in the case of a printer, but still an issue for many devices.
Re:What HP Must Do to Make Amends for Its Self-Destructing P... by reitanqild on Tuesday September 27, 2016 @01:52PM (#12591503)
USB 1,2 and three has been backwards compatible.

Ethernet is. Most WiFi gear is.

For most video equipment there exist some kind of adapters.

Re:What HP Must Do to Make Amends for Its Self-Destructing P... by ryao on Tuesday September 27, 2016 @12:40PM (#12590915)
How about a third model? Customer replaceable print heads with physically separate customer replaceable and optionally refillable ink tanks of various capacities. Why must such things be mutually exclusive?

That said, I switched to a laser printer from Samsung for any printing that I still do. I had a HP photosmart printer for photo prints, but at the volume of a photo a year, it is cheaper to have the photo printed at walgreens, CVS or any other printing place than it is to buy new ink cartridges, even remanufactured ones.

Re:What HP Must Do to Make Amends for Its Self-Destructing P... by zwieback on Tuesday September 27, 2016 @01:16PM (#12591230)
We have that in the plotter space and had it for a while in the home space as well. Not sure why we switched away from that model although I'm sure economics were involved. It also goes toward what the other commenter says - many of us would prefer a longer-life printer but the reality is that the mass-market prefers low initial prices and it's hard to put replaceable printheads with reliable plumbing into a low-end mechanism.
Re:What HP Must Do to Make Amends for Its Self-Destructing P... by cuoverhere on Wednesday September 28, 2016 @05:58PM (#12601683)
> "it's hard to put replaceable printheads with reliable plumbing into a low-end mechanism"

Isn't that exactly what HP is doing now when they sell a cheap printer with replaceable cartridges that contain ink and a print head? Are you saying the "plumbing" is the difficult part?

I suspect "economics" in this case means they weren't making huge margins on ink cartridges.

Re:What HP Must Do to Make Amends for Its Self-Destructing P... by ryao on Tuesday September 27, 2016 @07:50PM (#12594307)
Which models did that in the home space?
Re:What HP Must Do to Make Amends for Its Self-Destructing P... by wtallis on Tuesday September 27, 2016 @12:49PM (#12590991)
My laser printer has a replaceable toner cartridge and a replaceable drum unit that needs replacement far less often. The market can certainly handle the complexity of separately replaceable printheads and ink.
Re:What HP Must Do to Make Amends for Its Self-Destructing P... by pmarreck on Tuesday September 27, 2016 @01:07PM (#12591136)
The above is exactly why i got out of ever buying an inkjet again and have re-adopted laser printers.
Re:What HP Must Do to Make Amends for Its Self-Destructing P... by zwieback on Tuesday September 27, 2016 @02:35PM (#12591841)
Hopefully from HP or Samsung... Kidding aside, laser is better for a lot of applications but low-cost color and photo is our sweet spot. That's why we don't like smartphones - nobody feels like they need to print any more.
Re:What HP Must Do to Make Amends for Its Self-Destructing P... by pmarreck on Wednesday September 28, 2016 @12:16PM (#12598898)
Yep, HP LaserJet lol
Re:What HP Must Do to Make Amends for Its Self-Destructing P... by gaius on Tuesday September 27, 2016 @01:56PM (#12591530)
make sure the printhead doesn't get ruined

How does a head get "ruined"? If its clogged can't it just be cleaned? Perhaps by flushing through with a solvent. I call shenanigans.

Re:What HP Must Do to Make Amends for Its Self-Destructing P... by zwieback on Tuesday September 27, 2016 @02:34PM (#12591820)
Cleaning with water is the first defense, solvents could easily dissolve some of the materials. However, with a permanently installed head it's not something we expect our customers to do.
Re:What HP Must Do to Make Amends for Its Self-Destructing P... by icefo on Tuesday September 27, 2016 @11:21AM (#12590260)
Epson did it: http://www.epson.com/ecotank

I didn't bought it because it was too big to fit on my desk and I don't know if I will buy an other Epson because they drivers are bad on my Debian. I should try to upgrade them. HP is pretty terrible but the Linux drivers are impressive.

Re:What HP Must Do to Make Amends for Its Self-Destructing P... by untothebreach on Tuesday September 27, 2016 @11:44AM (#12590444)
I have had great luck with Brother drivers on all the linux machines I've ever tried to use them with, so I would consider that a good option as well.
Re:What HP Must Do to Make Amends for Its Self-Destructing P... by alphapapa on Tuesday September 27, 2016 @02:52PM (#12592011)
I have a Brother HL2270DW printer, does duplexing and wireless, looks nice, doesn't take up much space. Got it on sale at NewEgg for less than $100. Replaced the toner cartridge once with a third-party brand. It's been great.

I use Debian and Ubuntu, and the driver has mostly worked very well.

However, there have been a few times when, after upgrading Ubuntu, which upgrades CUPS, some very obscure thing in the driver was incompatible with something else in the chain of commands used to print a job (ghostscript, etc--there's quite a pipeline), and suddenly the duplexing would print an extra, blank page between pages, and every page was offset by about an inch to the side. I was able to find a bug report on Launchpad and manually edit one of the driver files myself to work around it, but it took several hours of fiddling, and it's nothing any "average user" would be able to do.

And, sadly, Brother hasn't released updated drivers for this printer in many years; they don't seem to care about keeping up with newer versions of Ubuntu or CUPS, etc.--at least, not for this printer.

And I haven't been able to get it to print on envelopes correctly, no matter what I tried. It just prints as if it's printing on a normal sheet of paper.

So, anyway, whenever it needs replacing, I will probably try to get a printer that just does plain old PostScript. I'm no expert, but my understanding is that if a printer correctly handles PS, then basically anything can print to it correctly, without having to worry about arcane, manufacturer-specific drivers.

Re:What HP Must Do to Make Amends for Its Self-Destructing P... by willismichael on Tuesday September 27, 2016 @12:27PM (#12590814)
Another thumbs up for Brother, their consumer laser printers are now comparable in price to inkjet printers, and the toner is much less hassle and significantly less expensive per print. I've had no trouble with drivers on Linux either.
Re:What HP Must Do to Make Amends for Its Self-Destructing P... by mrec on Tuesday September 27, 2016 @12:50PM (#12590994)
I've been hearing good things about Brother, but all their (and AFAIK everyone else's) laser printers are still pretty hefty compared to inkjets, aren't they?

Being very space-constrained (London) and looking at very occasional use (I've managed without owning a printer at all so far) that's a bit offputting.

Re:What HP Must Do to Make Amends for Its Self-Destructing P... by initram on Tuesday September 27, 2016 @01:45PM (#12591464)
Yes, they are hefty. I don't know if you can find one that's only a printer. We have a printer/fax/scanner model that's now around 10-15 years old. I can tell it's getting ready to give up the ghost soon. We have actually had to use the fax part of it recently, too. The scanner in it is terrible for anything other than scanning documents to PDF. Completely unusable for photos. (Taking a few photos of a photo with my DSLR and doing an HDR merge produces great results, whereas using the scanner produces crushed blacks and blown-out whites with no way to fix them.)
Re:What HP Must Do to Make Amends for Its Self-Destructing P... by willismichael on Tuesday September 27, 2016 @03:55PM (#12592561)
Yes, you can buy just a printer. I'm not really fond of the all-in-one devices because they tend to be a mediocre everything and not a really good anything.
Re:What HP Must Do to Make Amends for Its Self-Destructing P... by manyxcxi on Tuesday September 27, 2016 @11:30PM (#12595249)
I will say this about my Brother all in one black and white laser- it does everything I need it to do well enough and I don't have to fiddle around with it to get it to work. Multi-page scan direct to PDF, fax, printing over WiFi (thanks to my router for that and Brother with some decent Linux drivers)- it does everything I want it to do and pretty good.
Re:What HP Must Do to Make Amends for Its Self-Destructing P... by 112233 on Wednesday September 28, 2016 @01:07AM (#12595532)
Can say good things about brother inkjet too. Was using J5?20 (don't remember exactly):

It auto cleans head while plugged in, can take a3 paper, in emergency can print decent photo in slow(best) mode, has huge black tank, and the size is not much different from other brands a4 inkjets. It weights a ton, though

Re:What HP Must Do to Make Amends for Its Self-Destructing P... by branchless on Tuesday September 27, 2016 @11:53AM (#12590508)
Agreed, run 100% linux with a brother printer, works great. Setting it up was very simple.

I didn't consider buying HP for a second not because of their drivers but because I have an association of HP producing total garbage.

Re:What HP Must Do to Make Amends for Its Self-Destructing P... by robotresearcher on Tuesday September 27, 2016 @01:43PM (#12591445)
> I have an association of HP producing total garbage.

It's so sad what they did to their brand. A cheapish HP laser has been our main lab printer for 14 years and zillions of pages. When I bought it HP was the no-brainer buy. Is it really true that if I bought one now it'd be no good?

Re:What HP Must Do to Make Amends for Its Self-Destructing P... by manyxcxi on Tuesday September 27, 2016 @11:32PM (#12595258)
+1 Brother

I've got a 7 year old black and white laser multi-function and am on toner cartridge number two. Never had a problem and it plays with my router for printing over WiFi. I've had good luck with it in Ubuntu, OSX, and Windows.

Pretty sure I spent $149 with it on sale at Fry's when I bought it nearly a decade ago.

Re:What HP Must Do to Make Amends for Its Self-Destructing P... by RRWagner on Tuesday September 27, 2016 @12:55PM (#12591034)
I have the Epson L210 Ecotank and have been very happy with it for my use, which is printing lots of pages (1000s). I would much rather pay for what I'm getting directly ($300 for the printer, $13 for 70ml bottle of ink) than plans for an "almost-free" printer and $60 cartridges to subsidize the printer. The problem with "free" in everything is that it's not and costs more than paying for what you really want to buy. As someone once said, "Expensive is expensive once. Cheap is expensive over and over again."
Re:What HP Must Do to Make Amends for Its Self-Destructing P... by rihac on Wednesday October 05, 2016 @12:20AM (#12641527)
rihac.com.au - if you already have a printer we have ink tanks CISS systems that fit to most models. We are also annoyed about HP's little trick but its not the first time a printer manufacturer has tried something like this. there are always little obstacles that we have to tackle. With a decade of experience our tech team know all the tricks to get around these barriers.
Re:What HP Must Do to Make Amends for Its Self-Destructing P... by jahewson on Tuesday September 27, 2016 @12:27PM (#12590818)
Brother's toner cartridges come with a return shipping label in the box, so you can send back your old cartridge from them to recycle.

I assume they refurbish and refill them and then sell them again.

Re:What HP Must Do to Make Amends for Its Self-Destructing P... by ghostly_s on Tuesday September 27, 2016 @01:54PM (#12591522)
AFAIK all toner cartridges are sold this way. I believe it's simply because there's no practical way to refill toner, which is an extremely messy indelible powder. There are also environmental regulations regarding the disposal of toner.