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Re:Autism and Evolution by adsfqwop on Monday September 26, 2016 @10:38AM (#12582173)
I don't quite buy that autism will be shown to be genetic. I think it's an environmental factor. The rate of increase in autism is pretty much exponential:

http://www.nature.com/news/2011/111102/full/479022a/box/1.ht...

Now that's a very scary chart if you start to project that curve into the future.

Here's another one. Not saying this is the cause, but it is a cause for concern. We have many similar patterns of environmental factors increasing with autism prevalence, which makes the likelihood of it being environmental stronger than something else.

http://images.medicaldaily.com/sites/medicaldaily.com/files/...

For example it took a long time to figure out that lead in gasoline could lead to cognitive decline. BPA and phtalates is another recent discovery, which cause hormone distruption.

What else do we have today that is yet to be figured out, and what is the likelihood that we have something similar brewing that we do not yet know about.

Re:Autism and Evolution by hoopism on Monday September 26, 2016 @10:51AM (#12582284)
I am not dismissing the idea that environmental causes may be at play... but be VERY VERY cautious when throwing around charts like that.

http://www.snopes.com/medical/toxins/glyphosate.asp

Correlation != Causation and not every scientist is an expert on Autism/Genetics/Biology.

"Even disregarding the sloppy mathematics, the claim's very basis (that glyphosate is the cause of a perceived increase in autism) is unsupported. No mention was made of how glyphosate was isolated and shown to be a cause (or even a factor) in some or any cases of autism in the article. No autism spikes near agricultural facilities were described, nor was any definitive causative link at all cited by the article (and presumably, Seneff) to back up the purported link between glyphosate and autism rates anywhere other than the imaginations of those making the claim. The single link of merit made within the article (to a USDA report) made absolutely no mention of autism at all but was misleadingly arranged to suggest a connection.

What the claim seemed to hinge on largely was a correlation/causation fallacy: Because [unclear activity involving glyphosate] occurred, a corresponding rise in autism diagnoses must be due to that unspecified issue with glyphosate. Claims of a similar nature have been dispelled with graphs like the following that show how difficult (or simple) it is to "prove" any one cause correlates with any one effect:"

Re:Autism and Evolution by i14ng on Monday September 26, 2016 @11:15AM (#12582501)
When the autism diagnostic criteria were broadened in the DSM, the people making that change predicted that we would see this rise in diagnostic rates. That was the intent, to help a broader range of people. It's played out slowly as clinicians and schools were retrained. There's also been an increasing incentive to diagnose as autism in addition to intellectual disability when possible, because insurance companies and schools will do a lot more if it's labeled autism.

So we've seen that shift. The diagnostic criteria changed a lot, not just a little, over time.

By coincidence, Wakefield launched his fraudulent crap about vaccines a few years after the criteria were broadened, and that became the popular explanation rather than the fact that the criteria changed. Belief in his BS is perhaps fading but it's still around.

The "epidemic" was predicted and an intentional outcome of the DSM criteria change, though.

If you hang out with a bunch of families with autistic kids, it's very obviously inherited in a large fraction of cases, because the kids are so much like their parents.

Another large fraction is likely genetic in the sense of "de novo" mutation, rather than inherited genes. There's likely also a group of environmental cases, mostly prenatal environmental factors.

Because social function depends on many coordinated aspects of human cognition, any condition that has a fairly global effect on the brain can create traits meeting the autism diagnostic criteria. The criteria are very broad, with many different ways to meet them.

It's important to realize that autism is a broad category, not a single condition, and no proposed single gene or environmental factor ever seems to relate to more than a few percent of cases. https://intellectualizing.net/2013/12/17/book-rethinking-aut...

Some of those causes could well be new to the modern world, but the changing diagnostic criteria do explain most of the expansion in diagnoses already, so there isn't a lot of evidence that we need to be looking for something novel to explain the increased diagnoses.

Re:Autism and Evolution by euyyn on Monday September 26, 2016 @11:22AM (#12582565)
Can you give more details on the "some of them are obviously inherited, because the kids are so much like the parents" part? Kids everywhere are so much like their parents, so the reasoning, as written, is nonsense.
Re:Autism and Evolution by i14ng on Monday September 26, 2016 @01:14PM (#12583645)
Kids often share autistic traits with their parents. The parents are either diagnosable themselves or very nearly so.

My son is the third or fourth generation to be likely-diagnosable, for example.

Currently-middle-aged parents without intellectual disability had almost zero chance of being diagnosed as children, because when we were kids autism was defined such that you usually had to be nonverbal or intellectually disabled to qualify.

A very commonly-reported experience is for parents to be diagnosed after their children are diagnosed.

Re:Autism and Evolution by i14ng on Monday September 26, 2016 @01:24PM (#12583735)
To clarify, I'm not trying to argue definitively that these traits are all genetic vs. acquired by watching one's parents. Perhaps it's some mix, though mostly-genetic seems likely to me. I _am_ trying to say that often the traits run in families, which argues against external causes such as vaccines and chemicals.
Re:Autism and Evolution by scardine on Monday September 26, 2016 @12:32PM (#12583259)
Families with one autistic child do have an increased risk of having a second child with the disorder.

There are some evidence that hints to genetic factors. For example, we know that boys are at much higher risk than girls, but we don't know why. Similarly, we know that older parents are more likely to have autistic children—but again, we don't know why.

See https://www.verywell.com/autism-4014759

Re:Autism and Evolution by kmonsen on Monday September 26, 2016 @01:23PM (#12583721)
This could just as well apply to environmental factors though, siblings probably share those.

Also the boy/girl factor could be explained by different behaviors, so different exposures.

Not saying I know anything about this, or that this is the case, just that the increased family risk and boy/girl risk doesn't mean it is genetics.

Re:Autism and Evolution by dsacco on Monday September 26, 2016 @02:36PM (#12584408)
>>This could just as well apply to environmental factors though, siblings probably share those.

That's correct, but looking at concordance rates between monozygotic (identical) and dizygotic (fraternal) twins demonstrates that there is at least a partial genetic connection.

Identical twins share the diagnosis in 77% of cases, while fraternal twins only share the diagnosis in 31% of cases.[1] Given that identical twins share more genetic material, the conclusion is that autism has a genetic component to its incidence.

That said, most research on the subject, including the paper I'm citing, establishes that there is most likely a dual nature-nurture component. In particular, this study was conducted on twins within the same household, so the genetic component would have been augmented by shared environmental factors.

[1]: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4440679/

Re:Autism and Evolution by s_kilk on Monday September 26, 2016 @11:54AM (#12582878)
(not the person you're replying to)

The implication seems to be that the parents also exhibit traits of the autism spectrum, so it's hardly surprising that their kids would do the same.

Re:Autism and Evolution by euyyn on Monday September 26, 2016 @12:20PM (#12583127)
If it's that, without finer detail, it's also a weak argument. I behave like my mother in many things; doesn't mean I was genetically predisposed to, as plenty of behavior is acquired from the parents.
Re:Autism and Evolution by i14ng on Monday September 26, 2016 @01:19PM (#12583683)
If you're saying it could be the autistic behavior is learned rather than genetic, then I agree, you'd need a twin study to rule that out conclusively. However, when people say "the autism epidemic is environmental" they usually mean vaccines or chemicals or something, not "learned from the parents."

Despite the quantity of autism research, most of it is quite bad and not that helpful on questions like this.

Re:Autism and Evolution by gertef on Monday September 26, 2016 @02:05PM (#12584120)
"Inherited" can mean "genetic" or some other method of parent-child transmission (like learning)

"Environmental" can include "parenting", but in this case the distinction is between "got it somehow from autistic-leaning parents" vs got from something else.

Also, the claim that autism might be somehow learned from parents is extraordinary and not widely claimed or supported by existing evidence. It was a discredited theory of the past though, that "cold" parenting created austism.

Re:Autism and Evolution by kmonsen on Monday September 26, 2016 @01:24PM (#12583730)
Also you share lots of environmental factors with your mother, like living in the same house, using the same car etc.
Re:Autism and Evolution by i14ng on Monday September 26, 2016 @01:37PM (#12583857)
autism isn't adult-acquired though (literally by definition, DSM specifies that it must be present in childhood). So you'd need parent and child to share environmental factors during their respective infancies.
Re:Autism and Evolution by wpietri on Monday September 26, 2016 @01:43PM (#12583908)
I'd strongly recommend you listen to Steve Silberman, Neurotribes author, on Fresh Air:

http://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2015/09/02/43674237...

(Audio controls in the left margin.)

He addresses that a fair bit, mentioning that autism is one of the most heritable conditions, and talking a lot about the history of the diagnosis and how it was artificially narrow for a long time.

Personally, my bet is that we'll come to see a lot of autism diagnosis as part of a broader pattern of medicalization of deviance from the norm. And that even the forms we eventually decide are harmful have for nerds the same relationship that sickle-cell anemia does to malaria resistance: a trait that is useful in small doses but can be harmful in large ones.

If there is an actual increase, I'd bet on it being due to stronger assortative mating that has come as mate choice has less to do with geographic factors and more with education and workplace.

Re:Autism and Evolution by nerdponx on Monday September 26, 2016 @02:09PM (#12584152)
When are we going to finally ditch the idea that heritable==genetic?
Re:Autism and Evolution by dsacco on Monday September 26, 2016 @02:20PM (#12584256)
>>When are we going to finally ditch the idea that heritable==genetic?

Well, considering the fact that "heritability" is a measure of how much of a given phenotype's expression is due to genetic variation, probably not soon. "Heritable" is not a word used to refer to environmental factors such as parental care and upbringing. In studies on heritability of specific traits, these environmental factors are used as classifications for broader observations of genetic variations (for example, in twin studies, was twin pair A raised in the same household like pair B?).

Going back to autism specifically, the Simons Foundation Autism Research Initiative identified a single genetic mutation that accounted for 25% of diagnoses in their Simplex Collection[1], while the other 75% were impacted by 200-400 different genes. This data is available online as of 2016[2], though some analyses may be paywalled.

[1]: https://sfari.org/resources/autism-cohorts/simons-simplex-co...

[2]: https://www.simonsfoundation.org/features/foundation-news/si...

Re:Autism and Evolution by ricksplat on Tuesday September 27, 2016 @11:00AM (#12590066)
Which of these categories does "epigenetic" factors fall into? It seems to straddle both ...
Re:Autism and Evolution by wpietri on Monday September 26, 2016 @05:37PM (#12585809)
Thanks, dsacco. Exactly what I meant, but even better put.
Re:Autism and Evolution by nerdponx on Monday September 26, 2016 @06:40PM (#12586226)
Thanks for clarifying. In that case, let me rephrase: when are we going to stop assuming that everything that runs in families and is genetic?
Re:Autism and Evolution by jerf on Monday September 26, 2016 @08:24PM (#12586733)
Well, it would have to come after we start. I think you're boxing strawmen in your head. In the rest of the world the debate between nature and nuture has been vigorously raging for decades and there isn't a "winner".
Re:Autism and Evolution by QuotedForTruth on Monday September 26, 2016 @11:05AM (#12582409)
Another possible explanation for such a rise that I have seen repeatedly given is that the methods and basis for diagnosis changed in the early 90s.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/tarahaelle/2015/01/05/majority-o...

Its also discussed here on Fresh Air by the author of a book on Autism called Neurotribes.

" But because no one really explained to parents exactly what had happened - that the diagnosis had been completely rewritten - that, you know, autism by the end of the 1980s and the early 1990s was not your grandfather's autism, you could say. It was much more broadly defined because no one ever explained to the lay public what had happened with the diagnosis. When the numbers started going up, parents very understandably became very alarmed. And the media was sort of blindsided by the sudden spike in diagnoses."

http://www.npr.org/2016/09/09/493148713/neurotribes-examines...

Re:Autism and Evolution by 3pt14159 on Monday September 26, 2016 @10:54AM (#12582308)
My cousin had debilitating autism that was greatly diminished by removing wheat germ from his diet, so I partially buy the environmental take, but on the other hand it is a disease that is correlated with parental IQ, where a higher IQ leads to more likely incidence of autism. I don't think it's a coincidence that the rise of co-sexed secondary education and finer grained sorting with institutions like Harvard and MIT getting an even more concentrated amount of intelligent people.
Re:Autism and Evolution by kijin on Monday September 26, 2016 @11:15AM (#12582499)
Since this thread is about evolution, we might even say that the evolutionary pressures we currently face in the developed world actually favor mild variants of ASD.

It might be because some ASD traits help people become more successful in the information economy. Asperger's people often thrive in well-paid occupations such as programming and data analysis where spontaneous social interaction is widely acknowledged to hurt productivity.

Or it might just be a side effect of a society that places a lot of emphasis on intelligence, making it more likely for a person with high IQ to seek a mate with similarly high IQ. The more smart people "inbreed" among themselves, the more ASD cases we will naturally see.

In either case, since evolution is whack-a-mole, this will lead to not only mild ASD but also more cases of severe autism if they are caused by the same set of genes.

Re:Autism and Evolution by cmiles74 on Monday September 26, 2016 @01:17PM (#12583671)
I have not seen any evidence that Asperger Syndrome or mild autism leads to well-paid occupations. For sure, there is some anecdotal evidence (which I find unconvincing), but I haven't come across anything more solid, like a research paper or study. If you've seen something along those lines, please post a link.

I do believe that children with Asperger Syndrome often see the symptoms grow less severe as they age. Perhaps with lots of hard work and a good support structure, some of them people grow to enjoy above average success. It seems entirely unreasonable (and to my mind somewhat cruel) to credit this success to Asperger Syndrome itself.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asperger_syndrome

Re:Autism and Evolution by zerognowl on Monday September 26, 2016 @02:08PM (#12584144)
What appears to be Aspergers now is very similar to spending lots of time on the Internet and then trying to interact socially afterwards. It's quite difficult to appear neuro-typical after a surfing session, and for today's kids, Aspergers is the 'New Normal'. Aspergers was even taken off the DSM-5: http://www.slate.com/articles/health_and_science/medical_exa...
Re:Autism and Evolution by i14ng on Monday September 26, 2016 @02:43PM (#12584463)
aspergers was lumped into autism, it wasn't made non-diagnosable. Previously the criteria for aspergers were the same as autism but without delayed language development. Now they decided that distinction wasn't worth singling out with a special diagnosis so it's considered autism regardless of language delay. Those who had aspergers are now considered to simply have autism.
Re:Autism and Evolution by PlugTunin on Tuesday September 27, 2016 @12:34AM (#12587451)
If I'm understanding your comment correctly, it sounds like you're insinuating that it's a fake disorder. No offense, but you're grossly misinformed.
Re:Autism and Evolution by wpietri on Monday September 26, 2016 @01:48PM (#12583957)
Even Asperger thought that his patient/students had unusual gifts as well as issues. In an attempt to keep the then-new Nazi regime from closing down his school (and later, eliminating "defective" children), he suggested they might make excellent codebreakers. Steve Silberman covers that well later in this audio interview with Terry Gross, and presumably in his book as well:

http://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2015/09/02/43674237...

Re:Autism and Evolution by stri8ted on Monday September 26, 2016 @11:45AM (#12582780)
Being economically successful in the western world, does not necessarily translate to more (surviving) offspring.
Re:Autism and Evolution by lithos on Monday September 26, 2016 @12:21PM (#12583135)
But it does ensure your child/ren have access to medical professionals, which causes what the medical community as a whole to see an increase in cases.
Re:Autism and Evolution by gertef on Monday September 26, 2016 @02:08PM (#12584140)
In a child with autism, pain becomes debilitating because they can't communicate or cope with pain well. That doesn't mean an allergy or intolerance causes autism, however.

An allergy or intolerance is much worse when it make your nonverbal child irritable and violent, then when it makes your verbal child say "mom, my tummy hurts bad" after you serve pizza.

Re:Autism and Evolution by 3pt14159 on Monday September 26, 2016 @02:19PM (#12584250)
Now that he's verbal he can describe what it felt like: He was completely off his ass baked. Just high as a kite. Unable to focus he was so high.
Re:Autism and Evolution by arrosenberg on Monday September 26, 2016 @07:44PM (#12586545)
Really? Did they do any kind of blood tests with and without wheat germ in his diet? It would be interesting to know what exactly was causing that response. That doesn't really sound like a normal allergic reaction.
Re:Autism and Evolution by jawarner on Monday September 26, 2016 @12:52PM (#12583431)
I disagree, I find it intuitive that autism is genetic. View autism as a genetically induced alternate brain development. Usually it doesn't pan out, but sometimes it leads to innovation that wouldn't otherwise be possible. This leads to a survival advantage for a given subpopulation, which is sufficient for natural selection.
Re:Autism and Evolution by M_Grey on Monday September 26, 2016 @10:53AM (#12582300)
There are a lot of potential candidates... too many to be honest, and a lot of them are related to basic economic activities. History shows that environmental issues driven by economics aren't solved until an alternative comes along and is adopted; the problems of dead horses and horse dung in NYC streets were solved by... the automobile.

I'm put in mind of the recent paper posted on HN regarding magnetic nanoparticles being found in human brains. Unrelated to autism (probably) is the increasing study of prions and in general, maladaptive protein synthesis. What isn't known about these issues could fill volumes.

Re:Autism and Evolution by kijin on Monday September 26, 2016 @10:53AM (#12582299)
It doesn't need to be one or the other. Genetics can predispose somebody to be more vulnerable to certain environmental factors. They will not show any symptoms unless those environmental factors are present, but there's still genetics involved.

And of course there's this whole field called epigenetics that studies how the same genes can be expressed differently based on environmental factors.

Re:Autism and Evolution by joeln502 on Monday September 26, 2016 @04:42PM (#12585380)
Small correction. We knew full well that lead was toxic, with adverse cognitive effects, before introducing it to gasoline.

https://www.wired.com/2013/01/looney-gas-and-lead-poisoning-...

Re:Autism and Evolution by hannob on Monday September 26, 2016 @11:04AM (#12582403)
> I don't quite buy that autism will be shown to be genetic. I think it's an environmental factor. The rate of increase in autism is pretty much exponential:

You're confusing increase in diagnosis versus increase in autism. This confusion is the whole basis of the "autism epidemic" claim.

Re:Autism and Evolution by adsfqwop on Monday September 26, 2016 @11:36AM (#12582698)
Am I? The Nature article explicitly states that the shift in diagnosis criteria does not fully explain the increase in numbers.

"Shifting diagnoses and heightened awareness explain only part of the apparent rise in autism. Scientists are struggling to explain the rest."

http://www.nature.com/news/2011/111102/full/479022a.html

Re:Autism and Evolution by jarmitage on Monday September 26, 2016 @11:02AM (#12582384)
It is not prevalence that is growing exponentially, it is diagnosis.
Re:Autism and Evolution by Spellman on Monday September 26, 2016 @01:30PM (#12583784)
Simple TED talk explaining what we know and what we know doesn't cause Autism. From 2014.

Takeaway: it's a mix of both genetics and environment.

https://www.ted.com/talks/wendy_chung_autism_what_we_know_an...

Re:Autism and Evolution by fasteo on Tuesday September 27, 2016 @04:04AM (#12588067)
>>>> The rate of increase in autism is pretty much exponential

That chart shows the rate of increase in autism diagnosis, which is not the same.

Re:Autism and Evolution by xutopia on Monday September 26, 2016 @11:18AM (#12582526)
What if the markers are recessive and the social fabric today means more people with the recessive genes procreate?
Re:Autism and Evolution by douche on Monday September 26, 2016 @12:12PM (#12583048)
I'm not sure if more people with the recessive genes procreate now vs in previous eras, in total; I suspect that more couples that carry autism-related genes are procreating with each other, due to increased prevalence of educational and intelligence-based assortive mating.
Re:Autism and Evolution by PlugTunin on Tuesday September 27, 2016 @12:40AM (#12587471)
FACT: Asperger's runs in families. Nuff said.