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Re:Bike manufacturer sees huge reduction in delivery damage ... by aluhut on Saturday September 24, 2016 @06:51PM (#12572990)
It seems like people who are responsible don't care anymore. Maybe it's the wages, the pressure or whatever. It looks like it's about time to replace even more humans from the equation.
Re:Bike manufacturer sees huge reduction in delivery damage ... by HCIdivision17 on Saturday September 24, 2016 @07:04PM (#12573023)
I strongly contend that there very likely has not been a decline in the give-a-damn factor. My experience is that it really hasn't ever been too high. Just look at cartoons 50 years ago, and packages getting wrecked en route is a staple joke; the jokes were rarely obscure, but often topical. There is always a few great operators, but mostly you just fix you processes so people default to failure less. Hence hacks like the TV stamp.

But the answer is (as always) more automation. Mind, this can lead to really neat edge cases where you accidentally build a package smashing factory. But in general repeatability (machine) beats out diligence (people) every time.

You just have to, you know, pay for it. The cost benefit analysis probably strongly favors the marked box in this case.

Re:Bike manufacturer sees huge reduction in delivery damage ... by Noos on Saturday September 24, 2016 @08:16PM (#12573221)
Good luck trying to automate a system where the vehicle has to unload a package of anywhere from envelope size to a 90" TV. It has to bring this across a driveway of varying shape or size, or even no drive way at all, bringing it inside an apartment complex or condo. It has to realize the correct address or room, collect a signature, or realize that no human being is present to sign for it. Then it returns the item to the truck.

The sheer amount of variables that this would require, without error, would be ridiculous. UPS and other places tried to make the customer do it by storage lockers, and those failed. There's nowhere near any elegant form of solution to improve on that.

Re:Bike manufacturer sees huge reduction in delivery damage ... by MertsA on Sunday September 25, 2016 @12:37AM (#12573992)
For the last 100 feet, yeah sure, you'll need someone to handle the package. But my box of PCI express network cards didn't get a boot print on it in the last 100 feet. My box of a replacement drum unit didn't get thrown about in the last 100 feet. Someone picking up a box and walking 50 feet with it usually isn't where shipping damage occurs.
Re:Bike manufacturer sees huge reduction in delivery damage ... by Tempest1981 on Sunday September 25, 2016 @02:46AM (#12574282)
I remember seeing 2 major-name delivery trucks parked back-to-back at a fast food restaurant. The drivers were transferring packages from one truck to the other. By transferring, I mean tossing them 10-20 feet in the air, and letting them land. Reminded me of Jim Carrey in Pet Detective. (This was several years ago.)
Re:Bike manufacturer sees huge reduction in delivery damage ... by kbenson on Saturday September 24, 2016 @09:49PM (#12573495)
I think it likely that if we see a significant amount of automation in delivery, the last mile will eventually see it too.

Right now, my neighborhood has grouped mailboxes[1], and anything more than a semi-flat package will not fix. Small boxes that don't fit are delivered to the shared larger compartment, which is locked, and the key is then left in your mailbox. When you use the key, it does not come out of the shared compartment, so in retrieving your delivery the key is automatically returned. I don't see why this system can't be scaled up somewhat. Automated delivery to a shared compartment which can be designed to accommodate such a scenario would be significantly easier. Want direct to home delivery by a person? I'm sure the delivery companies can accommodate you with a special type of delivery[2]. Theft might be a problem, but since these are generally in neighborhoods next to houses, and setting up a camera would be simple (and undoubtedly pay for itself in some circumstances when people contend they did not get a package), I think it wouldn't be too much of a problem.

1: https://www.mailboxworks.com/images/af-12doorcbu-lrg.jpg

2: In truth, it would probably start with the automated to shared compartment delivery being a new option that's slightly cheaper. Eventually it would probably become the norm since it's cheaper.

Re:Bike manufacturer sees huge reduction in delivery damage ... by nucleardog on Saturday September 24, 2016 @11:57PM (#12573876)
Are there really enough individuals (not businesses) that want to-the-door delivery that it's even worthwhile?

My shipping experience is a constant fight to get them to hold the package for pickup because I'm not going to be home during their delivery hours (~9-5 Mon-Fri) and I don't want to wait four or five business days for them to make several delivery attempts before I go pick it up.

Re:Bike manufacturer sees huge reduction in delivery damage ... by jschwartzi on Sunday September 25, 2016 @11:36AM (#12575749)
I'm waiting for Amazon to finish their locker network so they start to sell un-utilized capacity for this purpose. This strategy is why we have AWS.
Re:Bike manufacturer sees huge reduction in delivery damage ... by Symbiote on Sunday September 25, 2016 @09:44AM (#12575272)
Apart from the automated delivery, services like this exist.

I used one in Denmark last week. I received an SMS saying delivery would be the next day, but I could reply to request delivery to the drop off point in a nearby supermarket instead of at my home. I did this.

I received another SMS with a collection code. A keypad on the set of lockers opened the lock on one of them, and I collected the package at a perfectly convenient time.

http://www.swipbox.dk/

Re:Bike manufacturer sees huge reduction in delivery damage ... by WiseWeasel on Sunday September 25, 2016 @01:24AM (#12574094)
New idea for a game: Package Tycoon; give achievements and badges for successfully guiding the robot to deliver all your packages, and sit back while the kids do it for free!

Or wait, scratch that; how about Uber for packages. Bored at work? You could be delivering packages remotely to supplement your income!

I think it's only a matter of time before large scale data gathering service providers form a good-enough model of the environment in which they operate, to the point that the core service can be completely automated.

Re:Bike manufacturer sees huge reduction in delivery damage ... by Someone on Sunday September 25, 2016 @07:26AM (#12574862)
Uber for packages already exists (https://rush.uber.com/how-it-works)

They use "Earn on your own schedule" instead of "Bored at work?" as a slogan, though (https://www.uber.com/signup/drive/deliver/)

Re:Bike manufacturer sees huge reduction in delivery damage ... by HCIdivision17 on Sunday September 25, 2016 @12:10AM (#12573916)
Oh you're right, of course. But part of the ridiculousness of industrial automation is that at some point all those variables will be catalogued and dealt with. A bit poorly I'd bet, but we'll certainly see it happen. It'll just take another few decades...
Re:Bike manufacturer sees huge reduction in delivery damage ... by Natanael_L on Sunday September 25, 2016 @08:38AM (#12575075)
I have a feeling you'll need automation on the receiving end too.

Smarter mailboxes where you literally address the mail to an electronic physical mailbox, which digitally signs the receipt.

Re:Bike manufacturer sees huge reduction in delivery damage ... by jws on Saturday September 24, 2016 @11:25PM (#12573777)
A couple of years ago I shot footage of two UPS trucks exchange packages in my parking lot. They were tossing them out into a great heap on the ground, then going through them and tossing them back into the trucks. It was something like the day before Christmas, so I hope no one was expecting to have a fragile gift arrive intact. I suppose UPS is fine dong this, I think they say you should pack to survive a six foot drop, but it does give you second thoughts about shipping anything fragile, and I always assumed the six foot drops would be accidents.
Re:Bike manufacturer sees huge reduction in delivery damage ... by gregpilling on Sunday September 25, 2016 @12:46AM (#12574019)
When we make a new box, we throw it about 20 feet across the warehouse to simulate the UPS/Fedex treatment. As a manufacturer, I can assure you that they try really hard to not pay your damage claims unless it can survive that.

It would be great if someone could disrupt the duopoly of bad service.

Re:Bike manufacturer sees huge reduction in delivery damage ... by btcprint on Sunday September 25, 2016 @01:51AM (#12574161)
Well, if you really want to ensure they pay damage claims you must ship your packaged product to UPS Chicago testing facility (or approved ISTA testing facility) to get your Packaging approved to ensure it's adequate for the application.

I work in Packaging design and love problem solving. Any startups that need custom Packaging designed (design is usually free as value added service to get the mfg contract) feel free to PM me to discuss. I love to help/advise whether it becomes a mutually beneficial Business relationship, or a one sided help you only situation. ;)

Re:Bike manufacturer sees huge reduction in delivery damage ... by DanBC on Sunday September 25, 2016 @08:47AM (#12575100)
The email address in your profile is not public. It's used (I think) by HN mods if they need to contact you.

If you want your contact details to be public you need to put them into the "about:" box in your profile.

Re:Bike manufacturer sees huge reduction in delivery damage ... by striking on Sunday September 25, 2016 @09:54AM (#12575313)
Also, password resets.
Re:Bike manufacturer sees huge reduction in delivery damage ... by Natanael_L on Sunday September 25, 2016 @08:41AM (#12575088)
This isn't reddit, no PM:s here. You should put your email address in your profile
Re:Bike manufacturer sees huge reduction in delivery damage ... by skmurphy on Sunday September 25, 2016 @02:13AM (#12574220)
how can you be contacted?
Re:Bike manufacturer sees huge reduction in delivery damage ... by easychris on Sunday September 25, 2016 @01:42AM (#12574133)
Interestingly in Germany UPS has a good reputation (niche premium carrier). And it really seems that they handle packages better than our local carriers DHL, Hermes, DPD et al.

Probably it's just impossible to find enough good employees (for the salary they are willing to pay), and once you reach a certain scale, you will always face such issues.

Re:Bike manufacturer sees huge reduction in delivery damage ... by masklinn on Sunday September 25, 2016 @08:12AM (#12574986)
> they handle packages better than our local carriers DHL

God DHL is such an utter shit-show, it's amazing.

> for the salary they are willing to pay

Yeah that tends to be a big issue, there isn't any positive incentive to care, and the "production" incentives (number of packages through) generally go the other way, wasting time treating packages carefully is a good way to not meet quota and get shit-canned. And let's not kid ourselves, consumers aren't generally willing to pay for expensive careful shipping either.

Re:Bike manufacturer sees huge reduction in delivery damage ... by WesleyJohnson on Sunday September 25, 2016 @01:06AM (#12574066)
I worked at a distribution center for a large electronics retailer for 4+ years. It was my experience that a lot of those guys slinging boxes either didn't care, or just didn't have time to care. To the person who's been saving up for that $1200 4K TV, it's a big deal and having it come in damaged is incredibly frustrating and disappointing. To the guy loading his 3rd 58' trailer of his 10 hour shift in the middle of August - maybe not so much. You'd like to think your package is handled with the same care and pride that you would give it, but that's not the reality. Quotas, deadlines, bottom lines and the human condition just won't allow it.
Re:Bike manufacturer sees huge reduction in delivery damage ... by dvirsky on Sunday September 25, 2016 @01:38AM (#12574124)
> Quotas, deadlines, bottom lines

I guess companies can in some cases track damages backwards and add these to the quotas and bottom lines.

When I was 18 I worked for a few months on the assembly line at a Motorola manufacturing plant, assembling radio communication devices. It was a shit job with minimum wage and we had to meet strict quotas, but assembly errors were also counted, (the goal was "six sigma", https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Six_Sigma).

Once defects were a priority as well, and they were tracked to a specific person (by means of a sticker on each assembly stage), people started to care.

BTW the only cool thing about it was that the company REALLY cared about improving efficiency and reducing errors, and anyone who would come up with an improvement to any process, would get a reward, that could be a lot of money in extreme cases. I suggested a very basic "hack" that saved the company $100 a month or so, and got a small gift and a certificate of excellence or some bullshit.

Re:Bike manufacturer sees huge reduction in delivery damage ... by john_reel on Sunday September 25, 2016 @11:36AM (#12575746)
What was your hack?
Re:Bike manufacturer sees huge reduction in delivery damage ... by dvirsky on Sunday September 25, 2016 @01:57PM (#12576414)
It was really stupid. There were these LED 2-digit panels (something like this: http://bit.ly/2d9fa3a) that my job was to screw into the case.

Anyway, the connector cables were manually soldered to them at a nearby station, and the ladies who did the soldering used to just pile the LED panels in a box, and as a result some of them would get scratches on the visible part and had to be thrown away. At the same time, the speakers I would also screw-in, came in these grid-like trays, where each speaker was placed in a small rectangular cell.

My brilliant idea was to recycle these cardboard trays and have the solderers place the finished circuits in them, so they'd never damage each other. It saved 10-20 defected panels a month IIRC. Not enough to get me bonus, but enough to get me a cheap FM radio and a certificate.

A guy who worked there at the time optimized some circuit board printing procedure and saved the company IIRC like $100K a year (or was it a month?), and got a very big bonus.

Re:Bike manufacturer sees huge reduction in delivery damage ... by kalleboo on Saturday September 24, 2016 @11:16PM (#12573750)
It's also a whole attitude. I live in Japan now, and the wages here are just as shit and the pressure is if anything worse, but the service from the delivery companies is absolutely amazing.
Re:Bike manufacturer sees huge reduction in delivery damage ... by Noos on Saturday September 24, 2016 @08:13PM (#12573206)
The wage for a UPS driver is somewhere around $11 an hour, with seasonal temporary help making less. Most of them are part time drivers, so they have to work a second job to make ends meet. Surprisingly, if you pay people crap and force them to look for new employment while working for you due to low wages, no hours, and poor advancement opportunities, you tend to get bad service. And if you rely on seasonal temps you WILL get bad service, as they have little loyalty to you beyond the month or two you pay them.

But no, first answer is always "remove people" I guess. Like you even can, no robot is going to be able to do a UPS job any time soon.

Re:Bike manufacturer sees huge reduction in delivery damage ... by asddddd on Saturday September 24, 2016 @09:31PM (#12573433)
Here's the current agreement between UPS and Teamsters: https://teamster.org/sites/teamster.org/files/6161478090_mas...

See articles 22, 40, and 41. $11 is current part-time package handler pay (preload), drivers are almost exclusively (with a few exceptions) full time employees, and max out at close to $30/hr. Locals can and do negotiate this higher, that's the national minimum. Also, a huge priority for the union is ensuring that UPS doesn't start using part time drivers instead of FT drivers.

Seasonals shouldn't make less, unless you're counting the $125 union initiation fee that everyone has to pay - a bit silly that it applies to them, probably a great money maker.

Re:Bike manufacturer sees huge reduction in delivery damage ... by greglindahl on Saturday September 24, 2016 @09:26PM (#12573417)
Huh, Google surfaces pages that claim it's nearly 3X that, $30/hour.

https://www.google.com/search?q=ups+driver+wage

I usually see UPS drivers cited as an example of a unionized, middle-class job.

Re:Bike manufacturer sees huge reduction in delivery damage ... by alistairSH on Saturday September 24, 2016 @09:25PM (#12573411)
Source for those wages? Anecdote: I have several high school friends who drive/deliver for UPS, it's a union shop, they appear to be reasonably well paid (both own homes in typical middle-class neighborhoods, take vacations, etc).
Re:Bike manufacturer sees huge reduction in delivery damage ... by jonknee on Saturday September 24, 2016 @09:42PM (#12573472)
They are pretty well paid, but it's probably not the drivers doing the damage. Drivers don't load their trucks.
Re:Bike manufacturer sees huge reduction in delivery damage ... by alistairSH on Saturday September 24, 2016 @09:49PM (#12573493)
That's definitely true. The trucks are loaded in the early AM, so the drivers can hit the road ASAP. Does make me wonder what surveillance systems are in place in the warehouse and loading areas? Or if that would even make a difference? I have no idea, never worked in a warehouse.
Re:Bike manufacturer sees huge reduction in delivery damage ... by asddddd on Saturday September 24, 2016 @10:53PM (#12573660)
Quite likely they get damaged even before that, while they are on semi trucks (feeders). Assuming that loaders don't realize these are vulnerable to crush damage, they could get stacked on top of each other at the bottom of a loaded semi with moderately heavy stuff on top. Judging from boxed bikes I've seen, there is minimal or no padding, so this could easily result in damage. Not sure if it's official UPS policy, but it's much less likely for a presumably-expensive TV to end up stacked like that.

Surveillance - that's what supervisors are for. Really though, you have 800-1000 packages to load into 3-4 cars over 3-5 hours. When you have 20 of these bikes arrive on the conveyor belt in a 30 minute window and nowhere to put them (since it's hours from shift end and you can't put them in the delivery truck yet), they get dealt with fast and not so gently. That could easily mean a 3-4 ft drop onto concrete, and a supervisor would be unlikely to care since they know the pressure to go fast. The official policy is "hand to surface" for every package, but in reality you have to work at a pace where this is impractical - so it's ignored apart from egregious abuse of packages.

edit: as for discussion elsewhere here about proper packaging, here's FedEx guidelines/testing: http://www.fedex.com/us/services/pdf/PKG_Testing_Under150Lbs...

Some of the criteria, such as dropping the package 10x from a 30" height, might seem absurd if you haven't seen how the sausage is made. It really isn't.

Re:Bike manufacturer sees huge reduction in delivery damage ... by barnassey on Sunday September 25, 2016 @05:09AM (#12574524)
I worked for ups about 5 years ago and i can for sure say that you are absolutely right about the hand to surface not being used due to package load. I still have friends that work there and now they have to scan packages before they pack them as well. Also the load has gone up. You generally have to load about 200 to 2800 packages over your shift. So its pretty much hell. They also blacklist you if you was seasonal and had to stop working for the company for any reason. So that lowers who can go back as well.
Re:Bike manufacturer sees huge reduction in delivery damage ... by bunderbunder on Saturday September 24, 2016 @08:29PM (#12573256)
Huh. I actually find that figure really hard to believe.

17-ish years ago I got a temp seasonal job at one of UPS's air hubs, and they paid me $8 per hour. $8 in then-money is equivalent to more than $11 in now-money. So you're saying I was better paid as a seasonal temp than people who are much higher in UPS's pecking order than that are nowadays.

Now it being part time, yeah, I believe that. Pretty much everyone in that facility was working about 30h/wk.

Re:Bike manufacturer sees huge reduction in delivery damage ... by hkmurakami on Saturday September 24, 2016 @08:54PM (#12573330)
Very possible. Median real wage growth (inflation adjusted) have been sluggish post recession, and considering the explosive rise in wages in certain knowledge sectors, that must be offset by negative real wage growth sectors elsewhere.
Re:Bike manufacturer sees huge reduction in delivery damage ... by bunderbunder on Sunday September 25, 2016 @11:32AM (#12575730)
Yeah, but even beyond that, based on my understanding of the situation, $11/hr now would also mean that the nominal wage of drivers has also gone down over that same time period.
Re:Bike manufacturer sees huge reduction in delivery damage ... by ekianjo on Sunday September 25, 2016 @12:28AM (#12573957)
Civil servants in developed countries are far from being paid crap yet they deliver the worst services ever.

This is rather about the workplace culture than the pay.

Re:Bike manufacturer sees huge reduction in delivery damage ... by XorNot on Saturday September 24, 2016 @11:49PM (#12573850)
Isn't it also the incorporation of metrics into the delivery drivers schedules? As in, those trucks have been heavily wired with remote telemetry for everything, all of which goes to the local regional managers.

Who get told "we need an X% increase in productivity" - so they look at their metrics and come up with some idiot conclusion like "drivers just need to spend on average X seconds less per delivery...so I'm going to start measuring people by how long they're stopped making a delivery and have reviews when they are stopped too long".

Meanwhile, the delivery driver who has a route full of apartment buildings without easy truck access gets screwed.

Re:Bike manufacturer sees huge reduction in delivery damage ... by Tinyyy on Saturday September 24, 2016 @10:40PM (#12573624)
Their pay is what it is because of economics. And they will get replaced if they keep up with the poor service, because of economics. The worse your service, the easier it is for a robot to replace you. It's not possible for a individual, a corporation or even a government to go against economical forces.

Then again, don't get me wrong, I do think that the government needs to do more wealth redistribution.

Re:Bike manufacturer sees huge reduction in delivery damage ... by Tinyyy on Sunday September 25, 2016 @02:39AM (#12574274)
Hey I don't care if you downvote me, but can you at least respond so I know why?
Re:Bike manufacturer sees huge reduction in delivery damage ... by analogmemory on Saturday September 24, 2016 @09:17PM (#12573390)
Yeah but could a robot deliver as good as this?

https://scontent-lax3-1.cdninstagram.com/t51.2885-15/e35/142...

Re:Bike manufacturer sees huge reduction in delivery damage ... by ayymao on Saturday September 24, 2016 @07:47PM (#12573150)
When the result is good it's always the managers or the owners that receive the credit, and now it's the workers that get the blame.
Re:Bike manufacturer sees huge reduction in delivery damage ... by M_Grey on Saturday September 24, 2016 @07:31PM (#12573113)
People care as much as they're paid and treated well to care.
Re:Bike manufacturer sees huge reduction in delivery damage ... by XorNot on Saturday September 24, 2016 @11:52PM (#12573861)
They also care as much as they think their ideas and creativity are actually being respected/rewarded.

Doesn't matter how much you pay someone if you make it clear at every point that you don't care what they think about trying to improve the job they do, then they'll adjust their enthusiasm accordingly. Or if trying to be better is used as a form of punishment i.e. "that's a good idea Barry, you can be in charge of implementing it without any change in pay or responsibilities!"

Re:Bike manufacturer sees huge reduction in delivery damage ... by M_Grey on Sunday September 25, 2016 @12:40AM (#12573999)
Oh god, that last line was chilling and all too familiar. I actually felt my heart-rate increase. There's nothing worse than being institutionally punished for having a good idea.
Re:Bike manufacturer sees huge reduction in delivery damage ... by jethro_tell on Saturday September 24, 2016 @08:24PM (#12573241)
And even then, they tend to be a little more fallible than they are trying to be.
Re:Bike manufacturer sees huge reduction in delivery damage ... by M_Grey on Saturday September 24, 2016 @08:49PM (#12573318)
It's true, especially when tired.
Re:Bike manufacturer sees huge reduction in delivery damage ... by treehau5 on Saturday September 24, 2016 @09:19PM (#12573396)
Can we replace you with a robot so I never have to read such an ignorant, inhumane comment again? Why don't we try treating low wage workers like their valuable, and give them more credit when they do a good job instead of their CEO's getting the big bonuses? You'd be amazed what people are capable of when treated right. If you still get losers smashing up boxes, fire them. By that point there will be a line of applicants waiting to do a better job, and the irresponsible worker can go and figure out why he or she got fired and do better next crack at it.

So sick of the endless chatter of this "automation utopia" here. It doesn't exist, it's not going to exist likely for hundreds of years, so lets turn the blind eye while the automaters rake in the profits and wages continue to stagnate for the next 40 years like they have the previous 40.

Re:Bike manufacturer sees huge reduction in delivery damage ... by post-it on Sunday September 25, 2016 @01:11AM (#12574074)
Why do you want people to have to work? A job automated is a person that doesn't need to work.
Re:Bike manufacturer sees huge reduction in delivery damage ... by nercht12 on Sunday September 25, 2016 @01:41AM (#12574131)
We live in a capitalistic system (surprise!) - You don't work, you don't eat. So if all tasks are automated, then only big companies make money and everyone else starves. But the big biz will save themselves by going overseas until they've harvested that money. In the end, it all doesn't matter anyways - "the rich will get richer and the poor, poorer."
Re:Bike manufacturer sees huge reduction in delivery damage ... by treehau5 on Sunday September 25, 2016 @10:38PM (#12578871)
It has nothing to do with me wanting people to work, but with people wanting to work.

Believe it or not, some people want to work. Many are raised on the principle of you need to work to eat, and will continue to raise their kids in this fashion for the unforeseeable future. Call it what you want, it is just the way some people live their life and find worth. We have to stop and ask ourselves why on earth would we want to even automate all work? It always goes down some utilitarian route, and I am saddened to see that this is the only ethical framework that has room in modern, capitalistic society.

> A job automated is a person that doesn't need to work.

False. A job automated is a person that a company doesn't need a worker for. There is a difference, in that now that person doesn't get paid. Company makes more money. This will be the situation until we reach the fabled "automation utopia" where all the essentials are taken care of such as food, shelter, water, travel, medicine, law, governance, and humans are left to frolic around to and fro. Until then, there will be hundreds of years of human suffering. Let's stop this endless pursuit to automate which is driven largely by profit, and focus our attention on solving human suffering. We have better things to be doing with our time than to figure out how to replace everyone's job.