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Re:Microsoft aren't forcing Lenovo to block free operating s... by captainmuon on Wednesday September 21, 2016 @04:14PM (#12551821)
That's just nitpicking. They blocked the enabling of a setting which allows Linux to see the hard disk. They went out of their way to make a firmware change that has the effect that you cannot run Linux - unless you flash your BIOS or you write a driver. In my book, they effectively blocked the installation of Linux.

Now, there are two options. 1) to support this hardware correctly, you'd need to make complex changes to the driver. In this case, I cannot see how it is the Linux' developers' "fault" that this doesn't work. It would be great to have a driver, but it depends on information that Lenovo doesn't give out. Or 2), it is trivial to make a driver, e.g. you just have to look for a certain ID. In this case, I would also blame Lenovo or MS, for there would be no reason to bock AHCI to "ensure a good customer experience" etc.

Whether this situation has come from malice or not, I don't care very much. Anyway, I think it is up to Lenovo to provide a solution (a BIOS update, a Linux driver, or information neccessary to write a driver).

Now, is it a conspiracy or not? I'd say the most likely option is carelessness. Maybe this happenend: "Shall we set this to AHCI or RAID? Currently it is set to RAID and works fine." - "Do we need AHCI?" - "Nah, Windows 10 runs fine, maybe for some older OSes" - "We don't care about those, just leave it on RAID. And while you're at it, comment out the AHCI option."

Did MS give any instructions to Lenovo to block Linux installs? Maybe not specifically, but we have to remember this is a "Signature" edition laptop. (There was the accusation that this only effects the signature edition and not other editions, which would be particularly damning btw..) I wouldn't be surprized if there was an agreement like. "The partner (Lenovo) shall install any crapware on Signature edition laptops. They shall not not preinstall other OSes. And they shall not offer support on installing other OSes." -- Which would be entirely reasonable for a special "Windows Signature" edition laptop.

Re:Microsoft aren't forcing Lenovo to block free operating s... by mjg59 on Wednesday September 21, 2016 @05:06PM (#12552257)
> They blocked the enabling of a setting which allows Linux to see the hard disk.

Or, alternatively, they removed a firmware setting that makes their hardware work less well and didn't think about Linux at all.

Re:Microsoft aren't forcing Lenovo to block free operating s... by seba_dos1 on Wednesday September 21, 2016 @06:49PM (#12552962)
Removed the option from BIOS menu? Okay, stupid and annoying, but well, there's always EFI shell where you can edit variables by yourself...

Writing a piece of code that resets that one particular variable on each boot?

Sorry, but that's just nasty. There is no reason to do that if the goal is just to provide best experience on supported OS.

Although I agree that it's unlikely this was targetted specifically against GNU/Linux and other OSes. The most important thing would be that Windows 7, 8 and older won't boot anymore.

Re:Microsoft aren't forcing Lenovo to block free operating s... by Whitestrake on Thursday September 22, 2016 @02:14AM (#12554798)
> There is no reason to do that if the goal is just to provide best experience on supported OS.

I don't believe it's accurate to say there's "no real reason", it seems like enforcing this behaviour is very much aligned with the goal you've posited.

This is under the assumption that this was indeed done for the purpose of ensuring Intel specific drivers are used for power management purposes.

Re:Microsoft aren't forcing Lenovo to block free operating s... by seba_dos1 on Thursday September 22, 2016 @05:17AM (#12555572)
There is no real reason to write code that goes out of its way to prevent you from switching into AHCI mode even if you know what you're doing (like in EFI shell).

Hiding the option from BIOS menu is absolutely enough to "ensure Intel specific drivers are used for power management purposes". It would be annoying, but workaroundable. There is no real reason for anything more, aside of being able to get months of complains about not releasing a one line fix allowing your customers to use your hardware.

Re:Microsoft aren't forcing Lenovo to block free operating s... by rlpb on Thursday September 22, 2016 @05:42AM (#12555677)
> Hiding the option from BIOS menu is absolutely enough to "ensure Intel specific drivers are used for power management purposes".

It absolutely is not enough, because I can come up with a single contrary case.

If this change was made in a BIOS update, simply hiding the option would leave some users stuck in the "wrong" setting forever. So one might write some code to flip it back at the same time.

This is the simplest way of fixing the problem. It doesn't need any assumption of maliciousness or incompetence. It's just unfortunate for Linux users, since they clearly didn't get any consideration when this fix was written, that's all.

Re:Microsoft aren't forcing Lenovo to block free operating s... by seba_dos1 on Saturday September 24, 2016 @07:07AM (#12570452)
The change wasn't made in BIOS update, only newer physical models had this change applied and they shipped right away being blocked.

Aside of that, this couldn't even be a change made in BIOS update, because every OS installed earlier, including preinstalled Windows, would stop booting without being provided with Intel driver.

Re:Microsoft aren't forcing Lenovo to block free operating s... by pbhjpbhj on Wednesday September 21, 2016 @05:56PM (#12552632)
Well really you need to say "didn't think users would install any operating system ever" to fit with the information here. Pre-installed Win10 being the only option doesn't seem to fit with the idea that Lenovo would want to sell more PCs.

I guess switching modes, a la progressive enhancement, is impossible with disk access then??

Re:Microsoft aren't forcing Lenovo to block free operating s... by vidarh on Wednesday September 21, 2016 @08:27PM (#12553406)
There a lots of settings in a typical BIOS menu that will make a system misbehave or outright not boot. If they were so concerned, they could have added a warning.
Re:Microsoft aren't forcing Lenovo to block free operating s... by Esau on Thursday September 22, 2016 @06:02AM (#12555732)
I suspect this is the real answer. I wouldn't be surprised at all if it turns out that they only tested Windows internally.
[dead]
Re:Microsoft aren't forcing Lenovo to block free operating s... by hdra on Wednesday September 21, 2016 @07:50PM (#12553283)
Hardware that works better = better sales, more money, less support cost?

There's only so many ways you can slip and slide on this ;-).

Re:Microsoft aren't forcing Lenovo to block free operating s... by raesene9 on Wednesday September 21, 2016 @04:21PM (#12551860)
Should Lenovo provide a driver. Let's be honest, that's a commercial decision and entirely up to them if they want to support Linux installs on this hardware.

Why should a commercial company be forced to provide support for a platform?

If they advertise the hardware as supporting Linux then sure they absolutely should be required to support it. If they don't, then why should they have to support it?

Re:Microsoft aren't forcing Lenovo to block free operating s... by captainmuon on Wednesday September 21, 2016 @04:39PM (#12552011)
It's the old distinction between "should do legally" and just "should do". Of course I don't believe they should be forced to do anything.

But then I reserve the right to be indignant about this. And I also think it is a bit stupid:

Lenovo had a reputation for having serious business Laptops. They cared about power-user customers who wanted to configure everything, and they had good Linux support.

Either they messed up technically - they did not know the effect this small change would have on Linux support. No problem, can happen, but is still a bit stupid. Or they messed up business-wise, by knowing this change would disable Linux, but not considering that important. I believe this is a much stupider screw-up.

It's like you buy one of these modern crossover trucks, and then find out you can't use it off-road in the desert. Of course, 99% of customers will use them in urban and light rural traffic, and only rarely will they be used off-road. But part of the allure of such a vehicle is that you could.

I don't believe that moustache-twirling executives are staging a conspiracy to kill Linux. But I do think Lenovo has lost their attention to detail that made them so special, and I can no longer recommend Lenovo products without hesitation, like I used to, which is a bit sad.

Re:Microsoft aren't forcing Lenovo to block free operating s... by hatsix on Wednesday September 21, 2016 @04:52PM (#12552121)
You can still install Linux on all of their 'serious business laptops'... including the Thinkpad Yoga. The only reason this is a "screw-up" is because someone posted it here and the tech media got outraged... there are MANY other Ideapad/Y-series laptops that have very poor Linux support.

https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Lenovo_Thinkpad_Yoga_26...

Their laptop brands are VERY distinct, and have been for a long while. Thinkpad is the brand that you should recommend for Linux users, not Lenovo in general.

Re:Microsoft aren't forcing Lenovo to block free operating s... by paulddraper on Thursday September 22, 2016 @02:14PM (#12558867)
Even Thinkpads are getting crappy. I couldn't replace my Wifi card because the signature didn't match or some such crap.
Re:Microsoft aren't forcing Lenovo to block free operating s... by tracker1 on Wednesday September 21, 2016 @07:03PM (#12553043)
It's kind of sad that the less tweaked options for laptops seem to be asus and acer... neither of which are my top choice, but seem to be much better than what's coming out of HP or Lenovo in the low-mid range.
Re:Microsoft aren't forcing Lenovo to block free operating s... by DanBC on Wednesday September 21, 2016 @07:26PM (#12553163)
The low end of ASUS includes things like the X205TA.

Here's Debian: https://wiki.debian.org/InstallingDebianOn/Asus/X205TA

Here's Ubuntu (this is a very long thread): https://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=2254322

There's a video on youtube of a school tech support guy who has a bunch (149) of ASUS X200 to image the drives from a USB drive, and that involves updating the "bios" and then editing the bios settings. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yectQ5MeS_Y

tl;dr: it's not fun on any of these netbooks.

Re:Microsoft aren't forcing Lenovo to block free operating s... by raesene9 on Wednesday September 21, 2016 @04:43PM (#12552040)
oh I agree with you I absolutely think they should support Linux, personally it's my OS of choice for technical work and their lack of support here makes me less likely to buy their stuff in the future (my next laptop will likely be a Dell XPS 13 Developer edition, precisely because of their linux support)
Re:Microsoft aren't forcing Lenovo to block free operating s... by hatsix on Wednesday September 21, 2016 @05:01PM (#12552204)
This is their consumer-focused Yoga. Their Thinkpad Yoga does not have any issues running Linux.

The only issue I've ever had with Thinkpad laptops was the Prime Nvidia/Intel video card switching... which is very similar to this in that it just wasn't supported by the drivers.

I see that Dell just had a big expansion of their Developer Editions... good for them! But it still appears that a fresh install of Ubuntu takes manual configuration of video drivers and power managment, meaning that they haven't figured out how to really make embracing Ubuntu smooth.

Re:Microsoft aren't forcing Lenovo to block free operating s... by Symmetry on Wednesday September 21, 2016 @07:29PM (#12553181)
I do wonder if Dell's trackpoints are going to suddenly improve now that IBM's old patents are expiring. If so maybe I'll get one too.
Re:Microsoft aren't forcing Lenovo to block free operating s... by npiazza83 on Wednesday September 21, 2016 @04:30PM (#12551935)
I don't think anyone is saying they HAVE to support linux. Think of it like freedom of speech. Lenovo is free to put themselves out of business however they want and their consumers are free to call it a big ass mistake and call them idiots and not buy their blackbox crap.
Re:Microsoft aren't forcing Lenovo to block free operating s... by raesene9 on Wednesday September 21, 2016 @04:33PM (#12551961)
Abosutely people are totally free not to buy their stuff.

But that does not make it a conspiracy by MS or Lenovo.

it is a commercial decision. companies get to make those

consumers then get to choose whether to buy their stuff

but it's not a conspiracy.

Re:Microsoft aren't forcing Lenovo to block free operating s... by npiazza83 on Wednesday September 21, 2016 @04:59PM (#12552184)
It may not be a conspiracy but it is certainly newsworthy. I've got a son who is getting to be about the age where a young man is ready for his spirit journey and will be sent to his room with an old laptop, his father's slackware disks, and a static IP and he will not be let out until www.youreamannow.com reads, "please bring me snacks."

I would hate to send him unprepared into the wild with a Lenovo.

Re:Microsoft aren't forcing Lenovo to block free operating s... by raesene9 on Wednesday September 21, 2016 @05:08PM (#12552266)
Slackware, you're being kind there, surely http://www.linuxfromscratch.org/ is the only way to experience your first linux install (although it's still a bit easy seeing as how people can use flash drives rather than Floppy disks for the install)
Re:Microsoft aren't forcing Lenovo to block free operating s... by npiazza83 on Wednesday September 21, 2016 @05:16PM (#12552317)
I admit I spoil the boy... Perhaps he is ready...
Re:Microsoft aren't forcing Lenovo to block free operating s... by SahAssar on Wednesday September 21, 2016 @05:03PM (#12552232)
Seems to me like they are well within their rights to do this (in at least some markets), but that when asked about it they should be able to stand by that decision and say why.
Re:Microsoft aren't forcing Lenovo to block free operating s... by parenthephobia on Wednesday September 21, 2016 @04:45PM (#12552064)
What conceivable commercial purpose of Lenovo is served by making it difficult for people to install operating systems other than Windows 10 on their laptops?
Re:Microsoft aren't forcing Lenovo to block free operating s... by raesene9 on Wednesday September 21, 2016 @04:59PM (#12552183)
that's easy, they don't spend money on developing drivers for Linux.

Every OS they support costs money in developer time. It's a commercial trade-off what Operating Systems to support.

Put it this way, do you see lenovo or Dell or HP developing drivers for OpenBSD? there's no commercial ROI on that, so they don't

In this case it would appear that Lenovo don't think there's a commercial reason to help out with Linux drivers.

[dead]
Re:Microsoft aren't forcing Lenovo to block free operating s... by raesene9 on Wednesday September 21, 2016 @05:35PM (#12552476)
timed comments seem to increase with thread depth. Apologies if you think things are circular, I've just been responding where people replied to me with points that I felt warranted a response, which seemed like a reasonable thing to do in a discussion thread.
Re:Microsoft aren't forcing Lenovo to block free operating s... by pieter_mj on Thursday September 22, 2016 @08:19AM (#12556269)
I would surmise the signature edition contract with Microsoft probably requires Lenovo to have their laptops at optimal performance. Suboptimal performance must not occur, hence the blocking of other non-RAID options.

It would be interesting to see how this is achieved in other pc's in the signature edition range : https://www.microsoftstore.com/store/msusa/en_US/cat/categor...

Re:Microsoft aren't forcing Lenovo to block free operating s... by kazinator on Wednesday September 21, 2016 @04:52PM (#12552125)
> Why should a commercial company be forced to provide support for a platform?

Because it's support for installing an OS, which is not the same as supporting an OS. The OS installation itself is unsupported.

Users running an unsupported OS is cheaper than users running a prescribed, supported OS, problems with which generate support calls.

Supporting Linux is part of what I'm doing here at my job, in a company that makes SoC's. The customers want a base platform (Linux-based) with board support, packages, a toolchain and so on. That's "Linux support".

"This is not locked down, so you may install Linux on it" is not Linux support.

Re:Microsoft aren't forcing Lenovo to block free operating s... by wpietri on Wednesday September 21, 2016 @06:25PM (#12552813)
> Why should a commercial company be forced to provide support for a platform?

I must have missed the post where somebody advocated having troops parachute into Lenovo's head office and round executives up at gunpoint. Could you let me know who was advocating the use of force?

Re:Microsoft aren't forcing Lenovo to block free operating s... by tw04 on Wednesday September 21, 2016 @04:50PM (#12552098)
If you're going so far as to install Linux on a laptop that shipped Windows, flashing the BIOS isn't a big deal at all. The real problem is that it took a third-party to fix the BIOS rather than Lenovo releasing a "BIOS for Linux" directly. I get not wanting to expose it from the factory to keep a user from screwing themselves, but there's no reason not to provide it to the power user.
Re:Microsoft aren't forcing Lenovo to block free operating s... by PieterH on Wednesday September 21, 2016 @04:58PM (#12552173)
I disagree. I'm happy to install Linux from a USB stick. I'm not happy reflashing a BIOS. Have installed many, many laptops with Linux (ironically, my all time favorites are older Lenovos like the X220). I've not once flashed a BIOS.

Not being able to change the OS on a laptop severely reduces its aftermarket value too. My laptop originally ran Windows. I bought it second hand to run Linux on.

Re:Microsoft aren't forcing Lenovo to block free operating s... by tw04 on Wednesday September 21, 2016 @08:57PM (#12553526)
Flashing a BIOS takes about 1/10th the time and effort of installing Linux.

Unless you're under the age of about 25 I'm not sure how you've never once flashed a BIOS unless you aren't in tech. Pretty much every new server from Dell/HP/Cisco/IBM/name your vendor requires a BIOS flash at least once in it's lifetime. Usually at the time of acquisition for HBA compatibility.

Re:Microsoft aren't forcing Lenovo to block free operating s... by vetinari on Thursday September 22, 2016 @07:34AM (#12556072)
Flashing Lenovo BIOS can be dangerous.

I once bricked an X230 with BIOS flashing (through Thinkpad Update). Judging from the forums, I'm not alone.

Re:Microsoft aren't forcing Lenovo to block free operating s... by PieterH on Thursday September 22, 2016 @02:08AM (#12554778)
I've been in tech for 35 years and never flashed a pc bios. My MP3 player, sure. You think tech means installing servers?
Re:Microsoft aren't forcing Lenovo to block free operating s... by n-gauge on Wednesday September 21, 2016 @05:10PM (#12552274)
What about other big customers of Lenovo ? Those that use Linux for Java development but are not Microsoft for example. I don't see this as carelessness, and how much money would a market leader make from such a corrupt request?