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Re:Leaked Apple emails reveal employees' complaints about to... by 1024core on Wednesday September 14, 2016 @11:17PM (#12503123)
> None of what I read in TFA I really understand to be a hostile work environment, as the term is defined.

Your colleagues joke that someone is coming to rape you, and you're supposed to laugh? I'm not a woman, but I can imagine a woman being really hurt by such a joke. Given the fact that 1 out of 6 women in this country are victims of sexual assault[1], I think it's a joke in poor taste, and does not belong in a workforce.

[1] https://www.rainn.org/statistics/scope-problem

Re:Leaked Apple emails reveal employees' complaints about to... by zaroth on Wednesday September 14, 2016 @11:28PM (#12503174)
I'm a little upset that you took the first paragraph of TFA and mangled it into "Your colleagues joke that someone is coming to rape you."

  On a Tuesday morning in July, when men on her team began to
  joke that an office intruder was coming to rape everybody,
  Danielle decided to speak out about what she described as the
  "very toxic atmosphere" created by jokes about violent sexual
  assault.
So 'Danielle' overheard a tense joke about an office intruder. After raising a complaint, the person who made the joke apologized profusely.

I'm not laughing, but again I'm really not shocked and would not expect a response to this incident beyond the apology already offered.

Re:Leaked Apple emails reveal employees' complaints about to... by chillacy on Thursday September 15, 2016 @03:09AM (#12504018)
If the throwaway accounts posting lately are real, then it wasn't even directly about rape, it was about the line "hide your kids, hide your wife" from.. the Bed Intruder Song. Then the person apologized more and more while Danielle kept going at him for making that joke.
Re:Leaked Apple emails reveal employees' complaints about to... by xauronx on Thursday September 15, 2016 @10:15AM (#12506299)
And then she had to take off time from work to "recover" from the incident. Sounds like someone who might be more fit for their new position than in a stressful environment around other humans.
Re:Leaked Apple emails reveal employees' complaints about to... by flukus on Wednesday September 14, 2016 @11:36PM (#12503215)
> I'm not a woman, but I can imagine a woman being really hurt by such a joke.

So we have to treat women differently than men? Sounds a bit sexist.

Re:Leaked Apple emails reveal employees' complaints about to... by keithnz on Thursday September 15, 2016 @01:20AM (#12503634)
No, not differently, you just need a base level of respect that allows for diversity. Various groups of people don't face the same issues as other groups of people. It's easy to be in one group, and say something that is a lot more offensive to another group due to real fear and/or discrimination, and vice versa. So no matter what group/s you belong to you need to be respectful of other groups and their challenges.
Re:Leaked Apple emails reveal employees' complaints about to... by flukus on Thursday September 15, 2016 @01:38AM (#12503707)
Why is the onus on me to be aware of what every sub group considers offensive? Why isn't the onus on the sub group to recognize that they are a minority and that not everyone around them has to meet their standards of what is and isn't offensive?
Re:Leaked Apple emails reveal employees' complaints about to... by Frondo on Thursday September 15, 2016 @10:02AM (#12506179)
If you want to be respectful of everyone around you, that's what it takes--awareness of what they consider offensive.

If you don't care about being respectful, don't bother finding out.

There may be consequences if you don't, there may not be. Me, I want to be respectful, so I start with a safe neutral ground and go on from there.

Re:Leaked Apple emails reveal employees' complaints about to... by flukus on Thursday September 15, 2016 @07:58PM (#12510892)
But why is it a one way street? One don't they have to be respectful of me and the human inability to know everything?
Re:Leaked Apple emails reveal employees' complaints about to... by keithnz on Thursday September 15, 2016 @08:10PM (#12510966)
you are right, it shouldn't be one way, and workplaces should actively educate what the issues are. You shouldn't be expected to just know everything, especially as it is a bit of a moving target.
Re:Leaked Apple emails reveal employees' complaints about to... by keithnz on Thursday September 15, 2016 @02:51AM (#12503951)
because in a workspace the culture is one of inclusiveness, the onus on you is to be inclusive, I'm sorry to say, that's going to require some awareness on your part. But don't worry, it will likely just make you a better person overall.
Re:Leaked Apple emails reveal employees' complaints about to... by toomuchtodo on Thursday September 15, 2016 @04:30AM (#12504354)
A workplace is not required to ensure you're not offended, only that you're not sexually harassed, harrases in general, or discriminated against (if a protected class). A workplace can also not force inclusiveness.

I fear that the swing in PC culture is going to cause more harm than good for "inclusiveness" now that the pendulum has swung too far.

Re:Leaked Apple emails reveal employees' complaints about to... by ManlyBread on Thursday September 15, 2016 @12:14PM (#12507362)
Exactly. Consider being an employer and having two candidates to hire. Both candidates posess an equal amount of skill, the only difference is their gender. Now you have two options: you can hire a woman and risk that she will complain about "toxic work environment" and "sexism in the industry" while tying your company name to these accusations... or you can hire a man and not worry about that at all. Why wouldn't you go for the second option? Not only you will get the same result when it comes to work, you'll also avoid the situation described in the article.
Re:Leaked Apple emails reveal employees' complaints about to... by keithnz on Thursday September 15, 2016 @08:13AM (#12505403)
I'm not from/in the US. PC is about respecting people, I don't think we are really in danger of too much respect. The only bad rap PC gets is when people only pay it lip service. but at its core, it's about respect
Re:Leaked Apple emails reveal employees' complaints about to... by r-w on Thursday September 15, 2016 @07:29AM (#12505085)
Avoiding funny jokes because they might offend someone won’t teach people anything. It’ll just make them feel like they have to suppress what they actually want to say.

Most people have a thick enough skin to get over it, so the people around them don’t all have to adjust to their feelings.

Re:Leaked Apple emails reveal employees' complaints about to... by keithnz on Thursday September 15, 2016 @08:19AM (#12505433)
funny jokes that are made at the expense of people really don't have any place in the workplace. In comedy there is a concept that anything can be made funny. So, limiting the kinds of jokes you make still leaves you an almost infinite amount of jokes to make :)

Sure, people do have thick skins mostly, but you shouldn't rely on that. Again, it's just about being respectful of people.

Re:Leaked Apple emails reveal employees' complaints about to... by r-w on Monday September 26, 2016 @05:16PM (#12585632)
Yes, but that can’t be done preemptively, see? Anyone I meet could be anything—any religion, any race, even a neo-Nazi for all I know—and it wouldn’t be evident from their appearance. So should I just avoid all jokes that are at anyone’s expense? Isn’t it better to be unafraid about what I say and to apologize if a joke I made was at the expense of someone in the room and they were offended by it? I never intend to offend anyone, but I’ve also had quite a few good-natured laughs at others’ expense without any intention of demeaning them. I don’t see anything wrong with that if I apologize once someone is offended and then avoid making jokes at their expense around them.
Re:Leaked Apple emails reveal employees' complaints about to... by flukus on Thursday September 15, 2016 @02:56AM (#12503973)
My path of least resistance is to avoid talking to $minority. So the end result of this PC culture will be less inclusiveness.
Re:Leaked Apple emails reveal employees' complaints about to... by keithnz on Thursday September 15, 2016 @08:11AM (#12505394)
correct, that is the path of least resistance. Culture change takes real effort
Re:Leaked Apple emails reveal employees' complaints about to... by flukus on Thursday September 15, 2016 @07:53PM (#12510865)
But I don't want to change the culture to one where we can't say anything for fear of hurt some special snowflakes feelings. In fact I'll fight against it.
Re:Leaked Apple emails reveal employees' complaints about to... by forgottenpass on Thursday September 15, 2016 @09:26AM (#12505896)
No, not differently, [...] you need to be respectful of other groups and their challenges.

So, be accommodating in a way that means people are treated differently, but just don't call it treating them different?

10-4 loud and clear, good buddy.

Re:Leaked Apple emails reveal employees' complaints about to... by roywiggins on Thursday September 15, 2016 @12:38AM (#12503452)
Wake me up when men are raped at the same rate as women and then we can talk about treating everyone the same.
Re:Leaked Apple emails reveal employees' complaints about to... by flukus on Thursday September 15, 2016 @12:43AM (#12503477)
So sexism is okay until men and women are raped in equal amounts?
Re:Leaked Apple emails reveal employees' complaints about to... by 1024core on Thursday September 15, 2016 @12:51PM (#12507704)
It's not sexism. Women and men are treated differently from basically the day they're born. Talk to some women for a change, and learn about their fears and apprehensions. You'd be surprised. Until you try to educate yourself, the Internet can't do it for you.
Re:Leaked Apple emails reveal employees' complaints about to... by flukus on Thursday September 15, 2016 @05:42PM (#12510069)
So equality is a list cause and your fine with that?
Re:Leaked Apple emails reveal employees' complaints about to... by keithnz on Wednesday September 14, 2016 @11:32PM (#12503195)
someone coming to rape everybody.... she wasn't singled out. Still, rape jokes are not acceptable.
Re:Leaked Apple emails reveal employees' complaints about to... by cpncrunch on Wednesday September 14, 2016 @11:35PM (#12503212)
>Still, rape jokes are not acceptable.

Perhaps, but it's not something that is obviously unacceptable. I would put it on the same level as making a joke about an intruder coming to bomb/shoot everyone. Certainly it's in poor taste, but that's the level of humour you find everywhere.

Re:Leaked Apple emails reveal employees' complaints about to... by keithnz on Thursday September 15, 2016 @01:26AM (#12503658)
if that was a real and possible threat to someone, then that would be totally unacceptable as well. Pretty sure people who went through 9/11 would not appreciate that.

Thing is, it's not found everywhere, there are very respectful workplace environments. If people do cross the line it is called out and dealt with and quite quickly things converge on what is acceptable and what's not.

Re:Leaked Apple emails reveal employees' complaints about to... by r-w on Thursday September 15, 2016 @07:25AM (#12505068)
It’s a shitty joke. Just move on. It shouldn’t be the company’s business to legislate whether jokes are in good taste. If just one person is uncomfortable on that team, they should just be put on another team, no questions asked. An entire team shouldn’t have to adjust their speech for just one uncomfortable person, especially when just one slip-up prompts that incident being shared company-wide in a massive and petty shaming attempt.
Re:Leaked Apple emails reveal employees' complaints about to... by scott_s on Thursday September 15, 2016 @11:54AM (#12507179)
Rape jokes are obviously unacceptable.
Re:Leaked Apple emails reveal employees' complaints about to... by cpncrunch on Thursday September 15, 2016 @12:14PM (#12507368)
No more obviously unacceptable than bomb/murder jokes, both of which are pretty common.
Re:Leaked Apple emails reveal employees' complaints about to... by scott_s on Thursday September 15, 2016 @02:47PM (#12508696)
Rape jokes are obviously unacceptable because they would violate even the flimsiest of sexual harassment policies.
Re:Leaked Apple emails reveal employees' complaints about to... by cpncrunch on Thursday September 15, 2016 @09:11PM (#12511233)
Just because it might violate a sexual harassment policy doesn't mean it is "obviously unacceptable". Those policies tend to be very conservative.

In most workplaces (in my experience) people talk openly about sex and relationships, which would probably violate even these "flimsy" policies.

Sex is natural, and it's natural for people to want to talk about it. The important thing is whether you are deliberately harassing someone, whether you should reasonably know that your behaviour is abusive, and whether you stop doing it when you're told that it upsets someone. I've always worked in places where the majority of people are quite reasonable, but I realise not all workplaces are like that.

Re:Leaked Apple emails reveal employees' complaints about to... by dx034 on Thursday September 15, 2016 @08:36AM (#12505549)
It wasn't even one, they just related to a song (which she obviously knew as rape wasn't mentioned): https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12503157