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Re:Stepping down as Nodevember organizer by gregjor on Tuesday September 06, 2016 @08:09AM (#12435332)
The problem is people holding the idea that they are entitled to "feel comfortable" in social settings, with no specific definition of what or whom is or may cause discomfort. I might feel uncomfortable attending a conference where I may see too many men wearing utili-kilts (OSCON) but that doesn't mean my personal discomfort overrides everyone else's right to wear or say what they want. If there's a specific behavior, or history, to point at, sure, people should speak up. I would feel uncomfortable at a KKK meeting or a gun show. But I could describe the real offensive behavior in those cases.
Re:Stepping down as Nodevember organizer by gnarbarian on Tuesday September 06, 2016 @09:29AM (#12435817)
I don't understand lumping gun shows in with the klan meetings. Can you elaborate on what you believe to be offensive about gun shows?
Re:Stepping down as Nodevember organizer by jacquesm on Tuesday September 06, 2016 @10:01AM (#12436039)
Not the previous commenter but I'm not comfortable around a bunch of amateurs carrying and messing around with weapons.

Professionals make enough mistakes with firearms, gunshows are a bad spot to be.

https://www.google.com/search?q=gunshow+accident

Re:Stepping down as Nodevember organizer by gnarbarian on Tuesday September 06, 2016 @11:05AM (#12436508)
Thank you for answering my question. I understand that many people are uncomfortable around guns.

As someone who frequents gun shows you piqued my interest in determining how dangerous they really are. The numbers are hard to pin down. But I tried to be as conservative as possible using the available stats. So if these numbers are wrong, chances are they are incorrect in your favor.

The ATF stats state that there are approx 5000 gun shows per year and they generally have 2,500 to 15,000 [1] attendees. We could use the low estimate (2,500 * 5000) and it gives us 12,500,000 attendees. (many of these people probably go to multiple gun shows every year so this does not imply 12.5 M people went but some smaller number went to multiple shows).

Using the dailykos's stat stating that for three years there have been around 1 gun show accident per month gives us 12 per year. [2]

The chance the average person will be struck by lightening is 1 in 960,0000. [3]

The chance of dying in a fatal car accident in the US in a given year are 1 in 11,000 [4]

So, the chance of a gun show attendee who attends one show once per year getting shot (at a gun show) is actually 1,091 times smaller than the chance of dying in a car wreck in any given year. It's also less likely than being struck by lightening. It's important to not let media crazes influence your perceived risk of an event happening.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_shows_in_the_United_States...

[2] http://www.dailykos.com/story/2014/2/19/1276171/-First-gun-s...

[3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lightning_strike

[4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_motor_vehicle_deaths_i...

Re:Stepping down as Nodevember organizer by maxerickson on Tuesday September 06, 2016 @05:43PM (#12439491)
Odds of being struck by lightning in a given 12 hour period: ~1 in 180 million.

(strikes have gone down in recent years: http://www.lightningsafety.noaa.gov/odds.shtml )

The gun show risk is far easier to control than driving risk and lightning exposure risk.

Re:Stepping down as Nodevember organizer by gnarbarian on Tuesday September 06, 2016 @06:00PM (#12439589)
Fair enough. The point is, the risk is so low compared to other risks we take daily as to be irrational and totally inconsequential.

Avoiding gun shows for fear of getting shot is like avoiding skyscrapers because of a terrorist attack, avoiding commercial airlines out fear of a crash, or avoiding swimming in the ocean because of sharks. All of these are statistically irrational.

I am really just trying to get people to be honest with themselves here. The real reason they avoid gun shows is they simply don't like guns or the cultures that surround them. That is totally fine, more power to them. But stating the risk of being shot is at best a show of ignorance regarding the subject and at worst a canard to make their preference/bias/distaste seem more rational.

Re:Stepping down as Nodevember organizer by jacquesm on Tuesday September 06, 2016 @07:07PM (#12439903)
The specific question was what would make one uncomfortable at a gun show and I answered that question.

To now see that equated with 'avoiding gun shows for fear of getting shot' is utterly unfair.

The statistic being what they are I'm no more inclined to visit a gun show than I'm about to visit a church when there is a mass or to visit a convention on tattoos, I have zero connection to guns, religion or tattoos.

That said I do know how to shoot but feel that America's love affair with weapons isn't helping at all, fortunately there is an ocean between there and here.

Re:Stepping down as Nodevember organizer by gnarbarian on Tuesday September 06, 2016 @08:30PM (#12440237)
I am reiterating this in the most respectful way possible. Do not ascribe any nasty tone to this as I assure you there is none.

Your statement which started this whole statistical discussion was:

"I'm not comfortable around a bunch of amateurs carrying and messing around with weapons. Professionals make enough mistakes with firearms, gunshows are a bad spot to be."

Had you said, "I just don't like guns", "I am not interested in guns", or "I can't stand the atmosphere/people/politics at gun shows or gun shops". That would have been the end of the discussion. That's an opinion you are of course free to have.

Since your statement implied you are not comfortable at gun shows because you perceive shows to be dangerous, I looked at the stats as generously as possible and determined the risk to be negligible.

Then in the comment directly above to which you just replied I said:

"I am really just trying to get people to be honest with themselves here. The real reason they avoid gun shows is they simply don't like guns or the cultures that surround them. That is totally fine, more power to them. But stating the risk of being shot is at best a show of ignorance regarding the subject and at worst a canard to make their preference/bias/distaste seem more rational."

In other words, I understand that you have no interest in going to a gun show because you are not interested in guns and that is totally fine. Which is why you should have just said that instead of lobbing that silly canard my way.

But it is bizarre for you to tell me that I was being unfair for directly addressing and then refuting the rationality of your stated reason for not feeling comfortable at gun shows.

Re:Stepping down as Nodevember organizer by jacquesm on Tuesday September 06, 2016 @08:41PM (#12440268)
I can be both not interested in guns, and not be comfortable around amateurs handling weapons (in any setting).

The question was about the latter, not about the former.

Re:Stepping down as Nodevember organizer by gnarbarian on Tuesday September 06, 2016 @08:54PM (#12440325)
Of course you can, But that doesn't change the fact only one of those opinions is defensible.

If someone were to say they don't feel comfortable around Scottish people because they commit more crime. I'm sure you would (rightly) have an issue with that and agree that it is indefensible.

Re:Stepping down as Nodevember organizer by jacquesm on Tuesday September 06, 2016 @11:40AM (#12436789)
You're assuming the people going to gunshows would never attend two or more shows per year and that they do not re-visit gunshows on alternate years either.
Re:Stepping down as Nodevember organizer by gnarbarian on Tuesday September 06, 2016 @11:54AM (#12436899)
I did mention that. " (many of these people probably go to multiple gun shows every year so this does not imply 12.5 M people went but some smaller number went to multiple shows)."

#1) We're talking about on a given year here. and all my stats revolve around the risk of an event happening for a person over the course of a year.

#2) Multiple visits increase the odds of being in an accident. because it's impossible to know how many people attended multiple shows. I am looking at attendees as an individual visit to a gun show. The risk factor showing the odds of being in an accident at a single visit to a single show are more meaningful anyhow.

If you go to one gun show in a given year your odds are around 1 in a million for being involved in an accident. If you go to two your odds jump to 2 in a million.

Get it?

Re:Stepping down as Nodevember organizer by jacquesm on Tuesday September 06, 2016 @01:10PM (#12437513)
I missed your () entry, apologies. And yes, I 'got it', there is no need to be condescending.

Regardless of the stats, I'm still uncomfortable around amateurs with guns. Comfort and rationality are not always aligned.

Re:Stepping down as Nodevember organizer by gnarbarian on Tuesday September 06, 2016 @02:00PM (#12437925)
I did not mean to be condescending. I was legitimately asking if you understood after rewording and explaining my conclusion.

I didn't really expect to change your view. Education, familiarity, and practice often dispel the sense of anxiety someone feels around something they are not comfortable with. Learning to drive a car is one example of this.

It's my hope that through reaching out to people who don't feel comfortable around guns and dispelling misconceptions in an even keeled way helps show that we aren't a bunch of reckless crazy rednecks engaging in sophistry to prove a point. I think it's important for everyone to reevaluate their assumptions regularly.

Guns are dangerous, But if you are following the rules[1], it's nearly impossible to have an accident. The vast majority of legal gun owners follow these rules.

[1] http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/Catego...

Re:Stepping down as Nodevember organizer by jacquesm on Tuesday September 06, 2016 @02:38PM (#12438235)
You should try having that conversation face to face some time with someone who lost someone dear because of a stupid gun accident.
Re:Stepping down as Nodevember organizer by mzw_mzw on Tuesday September 06, 2016 @05:10PM (#12439312)
That's not an argument.

Imagine having that conversation with someone who lost someone dear due to getting struck by lightning, and who is now demanding that we install lightning rods every twenty feet and legally mandate nonconductive clothing. Obviously you'd sympathize with them, but you can't base national policy on emotion. You have to look at the facts.

Re:Stepping down as Nodevember organizer by dragonwriter on Tuesday September 06, 2016 @05:35PM (#12439452)
> you can't base national policy on emotion

Value propositions are all ultimately rooted in emotional responses to propositions which cannot be objectively supported, and all policy is ultimately rooted in value propositions; you can't not base policy (national or otherwise) on emotion.

Re:Stepping down as Nodevember organizer by gnarbarian on Tuesday September 06, 2016 @06:35PM (#12439764)
That is very interesting. In the strictest sense you are correct. It comes down to how I value the freedom to bear arms over reducing gun violence.

Regardless of that, some arguments are more rational/illogical than others.

Re:Stepping down as Nodevember organizer by jacquesm on Tuesday September 06, 2016 @05:29PM (#12439419)
> but you can't base national policy on emotion.

As if the majority of the pro-gun ownership arguments aren't based on emotion.

Re:Stepping down as Nodevember organizer by Nadya on Tuesday September 06, 2016 @05:54PM (#12439554)
They're based more-so on reality. You can argue there are appeals to emotion ("protect your family!") but they aren't completely devoid of fact and ignoring statistics.

People hunt (some for game, some for sport) and need guns. People get robbed and would like a gun to keep in the home for self-defense. Some people live in criminal ridden areas where being mugged is a relatively common occurrence, having a gun helps there too.

Re:Stepping down as Nodevember organizer by mzw_mzw on Tuesday September 06, 2016 @05:54PM (#12439553)
Then you shouldn't have any trouble using reason to defeat them. Go on, then.
Re:Stepping down as Nodevember organizer by jacquesm on Tuesday September 06, 2016 @07:09PM (#12439910)
No, on the contrary.
Re:Stepping down as Nodevember organizer by gnarbarian on Tuesday September 06, 2016 @02:53PM (#12438334)
I've never met one. But if they were campaigning to infringe upon my gun rights I certainly would.
Re:Stepping down as Nodevember organizer by gregjor on Tuesday September 06, 2016 @10:03AM (#12436051)
I didn't lump them together, I gave two examples. Irrelevant why I find gun shows uncomfortable. I've been to a few.
Re:Stepping down as Nodevember organizer by gnarbarian on Tuesday September 06, 2016 @10:19AM (#12436174)
"I would feel uncomfortable at a KKK meeting or a gun show. But I could describe the real offensive behavior in those cases."

I guess you can't describe the 'real offensive' behavior after all.

Re:Stepping down as Nodevember organizer by gregjor on Tuesday September 06, 2016 @12:00PM (#12436944)
You're missing the point. I can describe why I would find a KKK rally or a gun show offensive. That doesn't mean everyone would be offended, or uncomfortable about the same things. My point was about vague claims of "not feeling comfortable" at a conference with no explanation of what caused the discomfort. From what I've read there's no substance: Crockford didn't do anything, a few people made some vague claims about how they felt, not about anything Crockford did.

It's one thing for me to say I don't like overt displays of racism and bigotry, or I get nervous around people carrying guns where Nazi "collectibles" are on display. It's another thing for me to try to ban a gun show or prevent people going because I'm uncomfortable with some aspect of it.

Some people don't like spiders. I get it, although they don't bother me. But is it my problem to deal with someone's fear of spiders? Of course I wouldn't shove a spider in their face, but am I responsible for their terror if they see a spider in my garage? I am responsible for my feelings and how I react to them. I don't hold gun owners or Klan members responsible for how they make me feel.

Re:Stepping down as Nodevember organizer by gnarbarian on Tuesday September 06, 2016 @12:10PM (#12437024)
I got your point perfectly. You and I agree 100% regarding Crockford. As someone who loves guns and owns plenty, I honestly just wanted to know what you found so offensive about gun shows. You stated that you could describe the behavior and I obliged you.

"... I get nervous around people carrying guns where Nazi "collectibles" are on display."

That is all I wanted to know. Thanks.

Re:Stepping down as Nodevember organizer by baldfat on Tuesday September 06, 2016 @10:04AM (#12436065)
Have you been to them? They are pretty scary with all the Nazi, and not so subtle racism. I have only been to them in the Northeast but they kind of feel like a Trump rally.
Re:Stepping down as Nodevember organizer by gnarbarian on Tuesday September 06, 2016 @10:16AM (#12436146)
I go to them all the time. I love them. I have gotten some great deals there. I love seeing real WW2 guns and equipment regardless of which side.