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Re:A SpaceX Falcon 9 rocket has exploded at Cape Canaveral by mabbo on Thursday September 01, 2016 @11:19AM (#12405935)
They do the tests to validate that this rocket won't turn into a cruise missile, headed for the nearest residential area. Not an impossible scenario. Lots of energy stored up in one of those rockets.

Just like when we test software, they want to have everything as close to what they would expect on launch day as possible (2 days from now). All the stresses, the structure, etc. That means putting stage 2 and the payload on top of the main rocket before the test starts. They probably did a lot of tests before the payload was on board as well, and those didn't reveal whatever flaw has caused this issue.

Yes, it sucks that the payload was lost but there will have been insurance to cover the loss. No human lives lost, no cruise missile scenario, no out of control fire... this is the best case scenario for a rocket failure.

Re:A SpaceX Falcon 9 rocket has exploded at Cape Canaveral by dTal on Thursday September 01, 2016 @11:58AM (#12406348)
Nitpick: you're thinking of a ballistic missile. Cruise missiles are more like exploding fixed-wing drones. The V-1 flying bomb was a cruise missile, and the V-2 rocket was a ballistic missile.
Re:A SpaceX Falcon 9 rocket has exploded at Cape Canaveral by Phlarp on Thursday September 01, 2016 @12:30PM (#12406653)
If a fully loaded (cryogenic fuel + oxidizer) SpaceX rocket did a belly flop into downtown Orlando I suspect this distinction would be quite meaningless to the locals!
Re:A SpaceX Falcon 9 rocket has exploded at Cape Canaveral by fizzbatter on Thursday September 01, 2016 @03:35PM (#12408219)
Sure but wouldn't most things be meaningless to them at that point? S/he said it was a nitpick, i appreciate the info.
Re:A SpaceX Falcon 9 rocket has exploded at Cape Canaveral by izacus on Thursday September 01, 2016 @06:17PM (#12409288)
Not sure what exactly are you nitpicking here - ballistic missiles have propulsion for a short time after lunch and afterwards continuing on a ballistic (hence the name) trajectory towards the targets. Cruise missiles have propulsion usually during most of the flight.

A rocket straying off course could either smash into city under full power (thus being a cruise missile) or have its propulsion cut off remotely beforehand (thus being a ballistic missile), depending on a scenario. What kind of a correction were you making?

Re:A SpaceX Falcon 9 rocket has exploded at Cape Canaveral by caf on Thursday September 01, 2016 @08:12PM (#12409813)
Cruise missiles are designed to rely on aerodynamic lift (and typically use air-breathing engines, although there have been some "boost-glide" weapons that used rocket engines).
Re:A SpaceX Falcon 9 rocket has exploded at Cape Canaveral by mabbo on Thursday September 01, 2016 @04:47PM (#12408752)
'Cruise missile' has always sounded cooler than ballistic missile, imho. But you are 100% correct according to Wikipedia.
Re:A SpaceX Falcon 9 rocket has exploded at Cape Canaveral by ygra on Thursday September 01, 2016 @11:23AM (#12405977)
> They do the tests to validate that this rocket won't turn into a cruise missile, headed for the nearest residential area.

In that case the rocket has a flight-termination system, though, which should activate as soon as it veers too far outside the planned/expected parameters of the flight.

Re:A SpaceX Falcon 9 rocket has exploded at Cape Canaveral by Phlarp on Thursday September 01, 2016 @11:34AM (#12406093)
For more context, all (edit: American!) rockets for decades have had onboard self destruct systems and a "Range Safety Officer" on the ground whose entire job is to determine if and when to deploy this self destruct system.

The cruise missile scenario is highly unlikely as the rocket itself would be destroyed soon after leaving its intended trajectory.

Re:A SpaceX Falcon 9 rocket has exploded at Cape Canaveral by cstross on Thursday September 01, 2016 @11:43AM (#12406186)
Not all rockets:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intelsat_708

(China, CZ-3B, Intelsat 708 payload, the launcher flew off-course and crashed on a village in 1996: by some estimates 200-500 civilians were killed.)

Re:A SpaceX Falcon 9 rocket has exploded at Cape Canaveral by dalke on Thursday September 01, 2016 @11:48AM (#12406267)
That links to http://www.thespacereview.com/article/2323/1 where one of the comments is:

> Like Russian vehicles, there is no flight termination system that receives ground commands onboard Chinese launch vehicles. Only US and ESA launch sites have such a system. Correction, Falcon 1 did not have such a system for launching on Kwaj.

Re:A SpaceX Falcon 9 rocket has exploded at Cape Canaveral by dogma1138 on Thursday September 01, 2016 @12:16PM (#12406519)
That's because usually the US and ESA/France launch from densely populated areas.

The launch pad at the Kennedy Space Center/CC is effectively about 50 mile from downtown Orlando, Baikonur is in the middle of nowhere.

Re:A SpaceX Falcon 9 rocket has exploded at Cape Canaveral by T0T0R0 on Thursday September 01, 2016 @02:29PM (#12407710)
Okay, rockets that can go very high, can still crash very far away.

An unpredictable, malfunctioning rocket could still million-to-one itself onto a school bus filled with children, halfway across a continent.

Re:A SpaceX Falcon 9 rocket has exploded at Cape Canaveral by dalke on Thursday September 01, 2016 @03:18PM (#12408098)
Phlarp's original comment was about 'a "Range Safety Officer" on the ground whose entire job is to determine if and when to deploy this self destruct system.'

The text I quoted implies there is an onboard flight termination system, even if there is no Range Safety Officer who can send external commands.

FWIW, a part from an exploded rocket, like the engine, could still destroy a school bus filled with children. The odds are very hard to estimate, and made more complicated in that there are few failure modes where a rocket failure halfway across a continent, at supersonic speeds, would reach the ground without breaking long before.

Re:A SpaceX Falcon 9 rocket has exploded at Cape Canaveral by T0T0R0 on Sunday September 11, 2016 @08:37PM (#12476468)
Congratulations on replying to me. I'm sure you're feeling good about it. I just wanted to let your know that I noticed, and feel special too.
Re:A SpaceX Falcon 9 rocket has exploded at Cape Canaveral by ygra on Thursday September 01, 2016 @11:47AM (#12406241)
All rockets launched in the US have to have one, though :-)
Re:A SpaceX Falcon 9 rocket has exploded at Cape Canaveral by robryk on Thursday September 01, 2016 @05:43PM (#12409136)
Nit: flight termination system does not cause the rocket to magically vanish. It will still continue on its current trajectory and impact Earth somewhere. It just causes the rocket to stop thrusting and, IIRC, disperses the fuel/oxidizer so that we don't end up with large quantities of fuel/oxidizer in a small area on ground.
Re:A SpaceX Falcon 9 rocket has exploded at Cape Canaveral by ygra on Friday September 02, 2016 @03:45AM (#12411562)
Indeed, all it does is break up the rocket. Depending on when it happens during the launch we might still end up with a fireball near the ground (unlikely to be near anything inhabited, though, as there's a lot of free space around launch sites) or with a quickly disintegrating rocket because it's already at high speeds.

There will still be debris, of course, but I guess the reasoning is that it's preferable to have relatively small debris, than one large piece of exploding debris.

Re:A SpaceX Falcon 9 rocket has exploded at Cape Canaveral by robryk on Tuesday September 06, 2016 @01:45PM (#12437790)
Size of debris is not that important: lots of small pieces will cause a similar amount of damage as the same mass in a large piece.

Two important roles of flight termination are: 1. Cause the rocket to stop thrusting (and thus prevent it from thrusting out of range safety exclusion zone). 2. Cause the propellant tanks to be destroyed. This prevents the propellants from causing a large explosion on the ground (when the tanks hit the ground) in preference to a conflagration in the air.

Re:A SpaceX Falcon 9 rocket has exploded at Cape Canaveral by jsprogrammer on Thursday September 01, 2016 @12:34PM (#12406691)
How often is the self-destruct mechanism tested?
Re:A SpaceX Falcon 9 rocket has exploded at Cape Canaveral by akiselev on Thursday September 01, 2016 @12:46PM (#12406819)
Very often. Air Force range safety guidelines require a million dollar flight termination system and most of that cost is testing and quality control. I don't have an authoritative list of all flight terminations but it happens at least once every few years whenever a rocket fails to follow the set flight path.
Re:A SpaceX Falcon 9 rocket has exploded at Cape Canaveral by Phlarp on Thursday September 01, 2016 @01:01PM (#12406953)
I also have to suspect things like isolated, dedicated and redundant comm links with the flight termination system are part of these guidelines. Perhaps even a "dead man's switch" that terminates the flight if this separate communication system loses signal at some point. (Even if this means a costly false positive or two~)
Re:A SpaceX Falcon 9 rocket has exploded at Cape Canaveral by Animats on Thursday September 01, 2016 @02:46PM (#12407840)
For the Space Shuttle, the flight termination system had two huge 10KW transmitters to send the signal. That would get through despite damaged receiving antennas, noise, or jamming.
Re:A SpaceX Falcon 9 rocket has exploded at Cape Canaveral by dingo_bat on Thursday September 01, 2016 @10:23PM (#12410393)
10kW? That sounds like a lot of energy to dump into air. Certainly unhealthy for operators or people near the tx site.
Re:A SpaceX Falcon 9 rocket has exploded at Cape Canaveral by makomk on Friday September 02, 2016 @05:14AM (#12411855)
Less than the typical TV or FM broadcast tower, and remember there's a lot of empty space around the launch sites. Even ham radio operators in the US can run at 1.5kW peak.
Re:A SpaceX Falcon 9 rocket has exploded at Cape Canaveral by planteen on Friday September 02, 2016 @12:28PM (#12414189)
You can get up to 30 kW (pulsed) on a MRI all directed at your body.
Re:A SpaceX Falcon 9 rocket has exploded at Cape Canaveral by MertsA on Thursday September 01, 2016 @08:28PM (#12409879)
As an example, the strut failure in the falcon 9 a while back didn't explode from the failure, that was the flight termination system that actually caused the fireball when things started going south.
Re:A SpaceX Falcon 9 rocket has exploded at Cape Canaveral by fudged71 on Thursday September 01, 2016 @02:08PM (#12407550)
Imagine how stressful that job would be when astronauts are the payload!
Re:A SpaceX Falcon 9 rocket has exploded at Cape Canaveral by mandevil on Thursday September 01, 2016 @02:28PM (#12407698)
There were no self-destruct systems on the shuttle orbiter, though there were on the solid rocket boosters and external fuel tank. They were used only once, on the Space Shuttle Challenger after the orbiter broke up, but the SRB's were still burning in an uncontrolled manner.
Re:A SpaceX Falcon 9 rocket has exploded at Cape Canaveral by TrevorJ on Thursday September 01, 2016 @03:41PM (#12408252)
Yeah SRB's don't really have an off switch unfortunately.
Re:A SpaceX Falcon 9 rocket has exploded at Cape Canaveral by Coincoin on Thursday September 01, 2016 @05:31PM (#12409057)
Don't worry, unlike the space shuttle, rockets have escape mechanisms. In that specific case, the astronauts would probably have survived as the emergency rocket thingies would have fired and evacuated them far from the explosion before it could reach the capsule.
Re:A SpaceX Falcon 9 rocket has exploded at Cape Canaveral by peletiah on Thursday September 01, 2016 @05:55PM (#12409199)
How are these triggered? Motion-sensors?
Re:A SpaceX Falcon 9 rocket has exploded at Cape Canaveral by mabbo on Thursday September 01, 2016 @04:44PM (#12408729)
It too should work. Just like rockets shouldn't explode while loading fuel before a test firing.

But of all systems I never want to have to test in production, the flight-termination system is at the top of my list.

Re:A SpaceX Falcon 9 rocket has exploded at Cape Canaveral by Gracana on Thursday September 01, 2016 @11:32AM (#12406072)
This discussion reminds me of the failure of the first Ariane 5 launch. The flight-termination system was activate erroneously, and the payload was not insured. Ouch.

http://www.esa.int/esapub/bulletin/bullet87/cavall87.htm

https://around.com/ariane.html

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cluster_%28spacecraft%29

Re:A SpaceX Falcon 9 rocket has exploded at Cape Canaveral by twic on Thursday September 01, 2016 @11:47AM (#12406245)
That's not what happened - the rocket went out of control due to a software bug allowed by over-reliance on unit testing, and was quite properly deliberately destroyed.

But yes, Cluster was run on the cheap, hence the use of the Ariane 5 test flight, and didn't have insurance.

Re:A SpaceX Falcon 9 rocket has exploded at Cape Canaveral by dalke on Thursday September 01, 2016 @12:16PM (#12406517)
"Over-reliance on unit testing"? I have a somewhat different read from the inquiry board report, which says it was a "systematic software design error." Yes, inadequate testing, and a belief the working code for Ariane 4 meant it was validated for Ariane 5 were certainly contributory, but I think it's unfair to single out an over-reliance on unit testing.

The board argues that there was a bias towards believing the software does not have an error. Thus, any out-of-range value is interpreted as a hardware error, which means the CPU should shut down.

There was a decision to not include Ariane 5 trajectory data in the SRI requirements and specification. Thus, while tests were rigorous at the equipment ("unit") level, and there were system tests, they didn't test that case. This is test design failure.

In addition, the board says "the review process was a contributory factor in the failure."

I can see how those can be aspects of "over-reliance on unit testing", but it doesn't explain, for example, how some of the variables from Ariane 4 were protected from overflow exceptions but others were not.

Re:A SpaceX Falcon 9 rocket has exploded at Cape Canaveral by twic on Thursday September 01, 2016 @03:09PM (#12408024)
You have quite fairly picked me up on a cheeky exaggeration.

Lots of things had to go wrong to cause the Ariane 5 failure - including bad handling of overflow, as you mention. But to my mind, the universal last line of defence against any kind of mistake is an integration test: put all of the parts of the system together, feed them real input, and verify that you get correct output. Arianespace did not do that.

Well, until they actually launched it. It was a test flight, right? It proved to be an essential and very effective test.

Re:A SpaceX Falcon 9 rocket has exploded at Cape Canaveral by david-given on Thursday September 01, 2016 @06:48PM (#12409441)
If anyone's at all interested in risk analysis or robust software, it's totally worth finding a decent writeup on the Ariane 5 failure --- it's a fascinating postmortem in just how many unexpected little things together added up to a big boom.

Everything is incredibly obvious in hindsight, of course, but making things obvious is largely what hindsight is for.

And once you've finished reading that, go look up the Therac-25...

Re:A SpaceX Falcon 9 rocket has exploded at Cape Canaveral by dalke on Thursday September 01, 2016 @03:24PM (#12408150)
That means there was an under-reliance on system testing, which I agree with. It doesn't imply there was an over-reliance on unit testing any more than it implies there was an over-reliance on analysis or over-reliance on the expectation of developing bug-free software.
Re:A SpaceX Falcon 9 rocket has exploded at Cape Canaveral by Gracana on Thursday September 01, 2016 @03:43PM (#12408263)
Oops, yeah I recalled that the subsystem that caused the problem didn't need to run after launch, so I was thinking it fed incorrect data to the auto-destruct system, not that it actually went off course.
Re:A SpaceX Falcon 9 rocket has exploded at Cape Canaveral by TrevorJ on Thursday September 01, 2016 @03:40PM (#12408248)
That doesn't mitigate the danger really.
Re:A SpaceX Falcon 9 rocket has exploded at Cape Canaveral by _puk on Thursday September 01, 2016 @01:37PM (#12407274)
Could they not have mocked the payload?
Re:A SpaceX Falcon 9 rocket has exploded at Cape Canaveral by mandevil on Thursday September 01, 2016 @02:36PM (#12407753)
Mocking a six ton payload is actually fairly expensive, to get the cg, vibration etc. right. A lot more difficult than payload = mock(satellite); NASA did it for the Hubble but so the ground crew could practice operations and not drop the billion dollar space observatory, not to try and save some money if something blew up during testing.
Re:A SpaceX Falcon 9 rocket has exploded at Cape Canaveral by xwvvvvwx on Thursday September 01, 2016 @02:48PM (#12407860)
Surely still much cheaper than a two hundred million dollar satellite?
Re:A SpaceX Falcon 9 rocket has exploded at Cape Canaveral by mandevil on Thursday September 01, 2016 @03:30PM (#12408183)
And at what frequency would it save the payload? In 85-95% of cases, payload is safely delivered to space, so the dummy just slows things down. In most of the remaining cases the payload is lost on it's actual ride into space (e.g. the last time SpaceX had a problem, CRS-7) where a dummy can't help. There have been a handful of pad accidents involving loss of payload, but they are very much the exception to the rule about the exception to the rule.
Re:A SpaceX Falcon 9 rocket has exploded at Cape Canaveral by TrevorJ on Thursday September 01, 2016 @03:45PM (#12408271)
It is possible to damage the rocket and systems when mating the payload in the faring, which would not become apparent without further testing and somewhat negates the purpose of this test itself.
Re:A SpaceX Falcon 9 rocket has exploded at Cape Canaveral by grkvlt on Thursday September 01, 2016 @07:37PM (#12409649)
The payload is mated early to save time by speeding up the launch schedule [1] so a mock payload would have the opposite effect - it would need mated and then removed after the test fire.

[1] https://twitter.com/pbdes/status/771411924907094016

Re:A SpaceX Falcon 9 rocket has exploded at Cape Canaveral by MicroBerto on Thursday September 01, 2016 @01:57PM (#12407461)
The question nobody is answering....
Re:A SpaceX Falcon 9 rocket has exploded at Cape Canaveral by tamana on Thursday September 01, 2016 @12:29PM (#12406640)
Insurance isn't magic pixie dust, it just moved the cost around.
Re:A SpaceX Falcon 9 rocket has exploded at Cape Canaveral by Phlarp on Thursday September 01, 2016 @12:32PM (#12406676)
If the organization underwriting the insurance is implicitly and explicitly insured (too big to fail) by the US govt, it might as well be magic pixie dust!
Re:A SpaceX Falcon 9 rocket has exploded at Cape Canaveral by TrevorJ on Thursday September 01, 2016 @03:45PM (#12408279)
That really just highlights how scary fiat currency is.
Re:A SpaceX Falcon 9 rocket has exploded at Cape Canaveral by stcredzero on Thursday September 01, 2016 @01:13PM (#12407065)
They do the tests to validate that this rocket won't turn into a cruise missile, headed for the nearest residential area. Not an impossible scenario. Lots of energy stored up in one of those rockets

This is a big plot point in the "Twin Spica" series.