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Re:The king of smokers by Synaesthesia on Thursday September 01, 2016 @10:32AM (#12405485)
Tobacco is carcinogenic, even if chewed or sucked, and lacks any legitimate medical use. However Cannabis has many medicinal uses, is very safe and non-toxic with no signs that it causes cancer. I don't think that smoking weed is necessarily good though - I would recommend vaporizing it.
Re:The king of smokers by tptacek on Thursday September 01, 2016 @10:37AM (#12405514)
It seems pretty unlikely that cannabis smoking is significantly safer than tobacco smoking for lung health, and far more likely that the gap in outcomes in the literature is due to the difficulty (historically) of doing studies on the same scale as the tobacco studies.

We seem too ready to forget that the cancer/tobacco link was itself once controversial.

Re:The king of smokers by Bartweiss on Thursday September 01, 2016 @11:01AM (#12405724)
I think this issue is muddied by conflating two different questions.

1. Tobacco itself is quite carcinogenic. Snuff, chew, gutka, and any other means of consumption all have strong cancer links. Cannabis, as I understand it, is not nearly as carcinogenic as that.

2. Smoking is also, separately, carcinogenic. Regularly breathing dense smoke is terrible for your lungs, even if you're smoking dried lettuce.

I think it's pretty well established that via 2, smoking cannabis is bad for you. If it's less bad than tobacco, that's as likely to be usage habits as anything. But people are still arguing fairly extensively over 1 - tobacco is a known carcinogen no matter how you ingest it, but I'm not sure that's a settled question for cannabis.

Re:The king of smokers by dragonwriter on Thursday September 01, 2016 @11:10AM (#12405844)
> If it's less bad than tobacco, that's as likely to be usage habits as anything.

If by "usage habits" you mean "usual quantities of material smoked and inhaled", then, sure, that's probably a pretty big difference. Now, legality (and, price, which is strongly influenced by legality) plays some role in that, but the inherent nature of the effects of each drug and their concentrations in the material that is smoked also play a pretty big role.

Re:The king of smokers by logfromblammo on Thursday September 01, 2016 @12:21PM (#12406568)
I have heard (from cannabis advocates, so taking it with a very large halite deposit) that cannabis itself has anti-cancer, or at least anti-tumor, activity. If true, it may be that some of the chemicals present in cannabis may alleviate the harm from the carcinogenic chemicals present in all smoke from burnt vegetable matter. If the effect is large enough, cannabis may still have a net benefit, even when smoked. Maybe.

But really, no one should be inhaling the smoke from anything that's on fire. Nor even eating food seared at high temperatures or by open flames. Some of those Maillard, caramelization, pyrolysis, and carbonization reaction products (like acrolein, acrylamide, heterocyclic amines, and polycyclic aromatics) may contribute significantly to flavor, but they are also very bad for your body, and are similar, if not identical, to the chemicals produced in smoked plants.

So you don't even escape that risk with cannabis edibles, because as I understand it, the plant matter has to be heated above 100C in order to produce the desired recreational effects, and some (impatient) people accomplish that by grilling it in a skillet, destroying some of the potentially medicinal molecules and introducing carcinogenic ones. This is why you really need someone trained in proper lab technique to test the claims. No two amateur stoners will prepare identical cultivars of cannabis in exactly the same way. The cannabis researcher will isolate variables and devise a repeatable experiment.

It is unfortunate that we have little reliable evidence to confirm or deny the anti-carcinogenic cannabis hypothesis, just because of political interference with the science. Few reputable scientists want to touch the stuff, because the DEA makes it such a pain, and there is also the risk of persecution resulting from politically unpopular findings. It would be really, really embarrassing for the US federal government if anyone were actually able to prove that whole cannabis treatments (rather than just a single purified component, like Marinol) either reduce cancers directly or reduce the negative side effects from proven cancer treatments.

Re:The king of smokers by Synaesthesia on Saturday September 03, 2016 @04:43AM (#12418357)
So we can't eat baked or fried vegetables either? There's a huge difference between plant matter that is pyrolised and that which is vaporized at about 200c. It's obvious. When you vaporize it mostly remains behind whereas when you smoke it mostly gets turned into ash, which you inhale.

Cannabis has been shown to have anti-cancer properties in at least two clinical studies that I know of. Not the miracle cure that some cannabis advocates say it is, but certainly worth researching.

The fact that cannabis reduces side effects of cancer treatments is well known and a major reason why it is prescribed in the US.

It's absolutely ridiculous that the DEA continues to insist that it's not a medicine, it's clearly a medicine.

Re:The king of smokers by thirstytho on Thursday September 01, 2016 @11:23AM (#12405973)
On the face, there are dramatic differences between cannabis and cigarette smoke, the most important being that cigarette smoke is highly addictive, the second most important that cigarette smoke has much lower potency.

This is why our smoking/cancer statistics reflect a reality in which it was once extremely common for smokers to be inhaling one or more ounces of burned tobacco per day.

Most people already know that that's a huge amount of weed for an average person. Even out of folks who are getting high every day, almost none are hitting that mark-- the most obvious proof of that being that it would cost them hundreds or thousands of dollars per day. Even if we allow for unfiltered cannabis smoke to be several times more carcinogenic than commercial cigarette smoke, we're not going to get there.

In fact the opposite is true; the average person who develops a serious weed habit (more than a few grams a week) is actively incentivized to try safe methods of consumption like vaporization, extracts, or edibles, if nothing else because they will save a lot of money.

So apples-to-apples, we wind up comparing the habits of generic cigarette smokers to those of drug dealers and very wealthy, very pot-addicted people. I understand the desire not to approve of any amount of smoke inhalation, but the null hypothesis here is not equivalent risk.

Apart from all of that, our generation didn't invent smoking weed, and neither did our parents. If cannabis represents a public health hazard on a similar scale to cigarette smoking, it's hiding pretty well after all this time.

Re:The king of smokers by tptacek on Thursday September 01, 2016 @11:45AM (#12406223)
I don't buy the logic in your last paragraph. Cannabis consumption in the US for the last ~80 years has been furtive. For most of the last 80 years, tobacco was as mainstream as Coca Cola. I don't think we can easily draw conclusions about lung disease from the facts we have available right now.
Re:The king of smokers by thirstytho on Thursday September 01, 2016 @12:04PM (#12406408)
That's ok, it's not important to my point; it's just weak but confirmatory evidence of my prediction.

Still, after 80 years, how are you splitting responsibility for that between our laws and culture and the substance itself? Smoking cigarettes furtively is much more difficult than smoking weed furtively[0], due to the exact same two factors I pointed out previously.

If the same evidence that predicts you'll see less disease predicts you'll see fewer of the users, does not seeing as many users really count against the prediction of less disease? At the very least it seems like you'd have to assign some priors in order to know which way that evidence points.

[0] In the habitual sense, obviously.

Re:The king of smokers by bogomipz on Thursday September 01, 2016 @11:23AM (#12405976)
I agree I think the comparison has to be organic tobacco like pouch tobacco or American Spirits which don't have all the additives such as saltpeter, bromine and chlorine. Its hard to believe though that ingesting one type of smoke vs another is any better for you.
Re:The king of smokers by Synaesthesia on Thursday September 01, 2016 @11:47AM (#12406236)
But tobacco itself is pernicious, and toxic - it's can be mixed with water and used as an insecticide.
Re:The king of smokers by likpok on Thursday September 01, 2016 @12:01PM (#12406379)
Pure nicotine can be used as an insecticide and generally doesn't have the adverse-to-humans effects of smoking, so that's not really good evidence of tobacco being nasty.

There are other things you can mix with water and use an insecticide, too. Caffeine, for one. There are other reasons that we don't use it, but mostly practical ones (it washes away easily, it also kills things in the soil).

Re:The king of smokers by Alex3917 on Thursday September 01, 2016 @11:11AM (#12405849)
> We seem too ready to forget that the cancer/tobacco link was itself once controversial.

Because most studies showed that tobacco didn't cause cancer up until cigarettes were invented. And even to this day it's still not really clear to what extent tobacco itself causes cancer.

Re:The king of smokers by adrusi on Thursday September 01, 2016 @11:04AM (#12405777)
lacks any legitimate medical use

Nicotine is a nootropic

no signs that it causes cancer

Its a hard connection to prove, but all smoke contains chemicals that are known to cause cancer. Eaten cannabis probably isn't carcinogenic, but smoked probably is. Few cannabis smokers inhale nearly as much smoke as tobacco smokers. Also, tobacco is a nightshade and toxic if eaten, so maybe that has something to with it being more damaging when smoked.

Re:The king of smokers by Synaesthesia on Thursday September 01, 2016 @11:48AM (#12406254)
Yes it's a mild nootropic however that doesn't require harmful tobacco but only nicotine. So tobacco itself has no medical purpose.
Re:The king of smokers by w__m on Thursday September 01, 2016 @10:49AM (#12405618)
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC526783/ literally every potent drug has strong side effects. Nicotine is just one of them, a powerful stimulant and analgesic. Many problems with it lie in self-medication and mass production.