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Re:A silent epidemic of male suicide (2011) by nyolfen on Wednesday August 31, 2016 @06:24PM (#12401924)
>Al­though men die by suicide at a higher rate, women have a higher rate of attempting suicide.16 This pattern is evident among youth and persists over the lifespan.

Why is this? I've read before that modes of suicide tend to be gendered -- ie, gunshots to the head for men and overdoses for women. Is this the entire story? Are women more likely, consciously or unconsciously, to be social signaling for support than men when they attempt suicide?

I lost my brother to suicide three years ago. I began attending counseling this year after a protracted period of personal turmoil in its aftermath, and it's a topic I spend a lot of thought on. When I was younger and less psychologically moored I thought of suicide as the ultimate lever I could wield over my own fate. Not so much these days, though.

Re:A silent epidemic of male suicide (2011) by asher_ on Thursday September 01, 2016 @02:43AM (#12403477)
This is a complex issue. There are a few things to keep in mind when thinking about suicide attempts.

The first thing is that the paper cited in this article to back up this claim actually does not say that females have a higher rate of attempting suicide, but rather that they have a higher rate of deliberate self-harm. These two things are not equivalent.

The second factor to consider is the availability and accuracy of self-harm or suicide attempt statistics. Males are far less likely to seek professional help, as noted in the article, so it stands to reason that far more male suicide attempts and actions of deliberate self harm go unreported, even if this data is gathered independently, as males are in general less likely to share such things.

Suicide attempts are often unsuccessful. It's harder to complete than is the general belief. Success rates are something like 5%. If we were to assume that the base incidence rate of suicide attempts for males and females was the same, we would still expect more men to die by suicide because of the related statistics about seeking help/treatment. I'm not saying that the base levels are the same, I'm just giving a hypothetical to show how the variables interact.

This is not a simple picture. The personal and cultural stigma around suicide makes things like this very difficult to untangle.

Re:A silent epidemic of male suicide (2011) by Mz on Wednesday August 31, 2016 @07:55PM (#12402327)
I am a woman. I attempted suicide at age 17.

I went though my desk drawers, etc. I found some pills, maybe decongestants, and decided that would probably not kill me. I found an exacto knife in my art supplies and decided to cut my wrist with it. I failed to hit a major artery. There was very little blood.

In contrast, I believe my brother's room had a gun, a bow and an encyclopedia of true crime. Had he attempted suicide while locked in his room, there would have been dramatically greater access to effective means and useful information for actually ending up dead.

I will suggest that women generally have less access to effective means, generally have less exposure to subjects relevant to figuring out how to end a life, and that women are typically subjected to a greater amount of social control that limits their ability to act.

Men are more likely to be infantrymen, police officers, hunt as a hobby, etc. Thus, they are just more likely to know how to kill something.

Additionally, successful suicides occur when you are alone. Men seem to have more opportunities to actually be alone, an observation I made years ago on a different forum about a different subject.

Women typically make less money than men, so they are less likely to be able to afford a place of their own. They tend to have roommates. Following a divorce, women are more likely to get custody of the children. So, post divorce, men are more likely to be living alone, women are more likely to be living with kids.

Etc.

If you attempt suicide with other people at home, you need to keep it a secret. If they find out, they will stop you. Simply having other people around is a deterrent to succeeding. It is hard to very quietly, secretly off yourself.

So, I think one factor is that women are less likely to have sufficient privacy, for lack of a better word, to succeed.

Re:A silent epidemic of male suicide (2011) by sevenless on Wednesday August 31, 2016 @08:26PM (#12402444)
I don't generally like evolutionary "just so stories", but men are the more expendable sex, when you get down to it. Historically, only half of men ever passed their genes on, whereas nearly all women did. It makes sense that men should tend to be shorter-lived, less squeamish, more violent (to men, women and themselves), and more willing to take life-threatening risks - all of which the homicide, suicide and accident rates bear out, worldwide. If you consider the difference between sexes for the homicide rate, it's surprising the female suicide rate is as much as half of men's.

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2004/09/040920063537.h...

Re:A silent epidemic of male suicide (2011) by vintermann on Thursday September 01, 2016 @06:21AM (#12404134)
> men are the more expendable sex, when you get down to it

This is far from as clear as people think it is. Foragers - as we were for the vast majority of our evolutionary history as humans - don't have lots of kids. They usually keep on the move, and that means carrying children, until they are maybe 4 years old. Having a life-mate to help you carry a four year old probably helps a lot.

It remains that humans are the most monogamous animals alive, by a mile. Other pair-bonding animals, like pigeons, cheat a ton compared to humans. When you look at pair-bonding animals, it's often those where the males are crucial to the offspring's survival, and where raising offspring demands a lot of resources from the parents. Human children are unable to survive on their own until the age of ten, at the most optimistic. So both the evolutionary story and the observed facts in forager societies (and our own too, in many ways) suggest that fathers matter a lot.

> Historically, only half of men ever passed their genes on

If I recall that paper correctly, of the men living at a certain point in time, only half have descendants today, whereas almost all the women have. This difference, over thousands of years, may have arisen from very small differences adding up over the generations for all we know.

Re:A silent epidemic of male suicide (2011) by duaneb on Wednesday August 31, 2016 @08:18PM (#12402404)
This seems to be American centric, though. Even when the means (eg hanging and poison mentioned earlier) are readily available to both sexes there is still a sexed difference.
Re:A silent epidemic of male suicide (2011) by DanBC on Thursday September 01, 2016 @04:19PM (#12408548)
The means are readily available, and the UK has seen an increase in women chosing more violent means, but it seems that women tend to chose less violent methods.

The office for national statistics has great data. It's particularly useful because they define what they mean.

https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/birthsde...

And we also have great data available under the Fingertips system. http://fingertips.phe.org.uk/profile-group/mental-health/pro...

Re:A silent epidemic of male suicide (2011) by PhasmaFelis on Wednesday August 31, 2016 @09:24PM (#12402612)
I'd guess that men are more likely to have sturdy rope available, and more likely to be good with knots.
Re:A silent epidemic of male suicide (2011) by Mz on Wednesday August 31, 2016 @08:25PM (#12402441)
I don't know why you would think that poison or hanging are equally available to both genders. In the aggregate, there are significant differences in not only career choices but hobby choices and other aspects of lifestyle. It in no way surprises me this impacts aggregate statistics on methodology.

I posit that many supposed gender differences are rooted in the different life experiences of the sexes:

http://micheleincalifornia.blogspot.com/2014/03/princesses-d...

Re:A silent epidemic of male suicide (2011) by tree_of_item on Wednesday August 31, 2016 @09:11PM (#12402574)
Why wouldn't you think that? Poison and hanging are equally available but they choose different methods based on life experiences.

That is, they both have a bunch of pills or a rope lying around but that doesn't mean they both choose them.

Re:A silent epidemic of male suicide (2011) by duaneb on Wednesday August 31, 2016 @10:30PM (#12402786)
Either way we've wandered into deep speculation territory. We need more data.
Re:A silent epidemic of male suicide (2011) by duaneb on Thursday September 01, 2016 @12:06AM (#12403035)
I'm assuming I don't know, which is the truth. I'm also assuming none of y'all do either without building on this study. Assumptions kill in these cases.
Re:A silent epidemic of male suicide (2011) by Mz on Thursday September 01, 2016 @12:55PM (#12406904)
I'm assuming ... I'm also assuming... Assumptions kill ...
Re:A silent epidemic of male suicide (2011) by vertex-four on Wednesday August 31, 2016 @06:27PM (#12401938)
Honestly, I have a suspicion that people go for the methods available to them - gun ownership is gendered in the first place.
Re:A silent epidemic of male suicide (2011) by Joeboy on Wednesday August 31, 2016 @06:40PM (#12402026)
I believe (but do not have a citation) the gender split also occurs here in the UK, where basically nobody has guns.
Re:A silent epidemic of male suicide (2011) by snerbles on Wednesday August 31, 2016 @06:50PM (#12402064)
"The UK suicide rate was 10.8 deaths per 100,000 population in 2014. The male suicide rate was more than 3 times higher than the female rate, with 16.8 male deaths per 100,000 compared with 5.2 female deaths"

http://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/birthsdea...

EDIT - Further down in the article, the most common methods noted in the UK are hanging and poison.

Re:A silent epidemic of male suicide (2011) by vertex-four on Wednesday August 31, 2016 @07:04PM (#12402119)
What's the suicide attempt rate, though? The argument is that men are more successful at going through with suicide than women, due to chosen methods.
Re:A silent epidemic of male suicide (2011) by snerbles on Wednesday August 31, 2016 @07:13PM (#12402155)
These statistics do not show attempt rate. It does show a gendered difference of poisoning (19% male vs 37% female) and hanging (55% male vs 44% female).

While I don't have a link, it is often reported that women are more likely to use poison/overdose for suicide attempts in the U.S. - it is a reasonable to assume it is the same case in the UK.

Re:A silent epidemic of male suicide (2011) by DanBC on Thursday September 01, 2016 @04:07PM (#12408463)
Chosen method is probably important, and in the UK we're seeing more women die by suicide because they're choosing more violent methods.

There's some other stuff going on too.

Possibly women have better social support networks; they're possibly better than men at asking for help and talking about the problems they're having. (This is one reason people keep banging on about getting men to talk).

Possibly women find it easier to get psychiatric help. Men tend to see doctors less often, and tend not to talk about some subjects when they're there. Women see doctors more often, and talk about emotions more readily.

Men are more vulnerable to some "triggers" -- relationship breakdown (partly because they sometimes lose contact with children and for the social network stuff mentioned above) or loss of job.

Re:A silent epidemic of male suicide (2011) by nv-vn on Wednesday August 31, 2016 @08:26PM (#12402445)
I think especially with the types of methods men vs. women use, a lot of men are much more committed to their actions when they choose suicide. By hanging oneself (something that probably isn't any more difficult for one gender or the other), you basically "guarantee" your own death. Making the decision to overdose on something gives you a chance to stop earlier and gives others more time to step in. I think this is an unconscious factor based on the causes that the decision stems from -- for example, it seems that women with bipolar disorder get more depressive episodes. Since they're more likely to try suicide during these episodes, that would explain the increased rate. Yet because a higher ratio of the men committing suicide are not suffering from bipolar disorder, it might mean that they've had depression for a larger period of time (making them take a firmer decision on how to end their life).
Re:A silent epidemic of male suicide (2011) by R_haterade on Wednesday August 31, 2016 @07:19PM (#12402174)
It's possible that men survive attempts and tell no one as well, whereas a woman might. Who can really say?
Re:A silent epidemic of male suicide (2011) by whybroke on Wednesday August 31, 2016 @07:46PM (#12402293)
To survive an attempted gun suicide is such an unspeakably, crippling and horrendous thing, it's almost unbearable to contemplate. It is certainly not something that could easily be hidden.
Re:A silent epidemic of male suicide (2011) by therealgimli on Wednesday August 31, 2016 @08:27PM (#12402448)
Then again, it's common to claim an accident while cleaning one's gun.
Re:A silent epidemic of male suicide (2011) by dsfyu404ed on Wednesday August 31, 2016 @08:46PM (#12402514)
No, it's really not. It's like having a "hunting accident" with someone you don't like. Most guns get cleaned after use. That's a lot of instances of guns being cleaned, maybe hundreds or thousands of times over the life of the gun. People say they were "taking it apart to clean it" when they're being careless or plain dumb. If it was actually a malfunction or easy to make accident then it would be widely known that some guns are more or less user friendly (idiot proof) than others. While I don't doubt some people have genuine accidents they're fewer and farer between than carelessness disguised as an accident.
Re:A silent epidemic of male suicide (2011) by Chris2048 on Thursday September 01, 2016 @08:11AM (#12404613)
How many guns can be easily armed while cleaning?
Re:A silent epidemic of male suicide (2011) by cheez on Sunday September 04, 2016 @02:14AM (#12423016)
I have experience with suicidal women (no, I do not attract a certain type): it is definitely attention-seeking behavior. Not in the way like dressing provocatively in the wrong contexts can be attention seeking (think clubbing outfits to go grocery shopping) but attention seeking nonetheless.

Yes, it's a data point of a handful, but I am thoroughly convinced that women are generally way too self protective to actually commit suicide. Now if a woman does actually do it.... She was seriously gone.

I've never known a suicidal man, does not mean they don't exist, just that they don't talk about it.

Re:A silent epidemic of male suicide (2011) by jwp729 on Wednesday August 31, 2016 @08:39PM (#12402488)
I'm sorry to hear about your loss. I'm glad you're able to get help through counseling.
Re:A silent epidemic of male suicide (2011) by igravious on Wednesday August 31, 2016 @09:01PM (#12402545)
> Are women more likely, consciously or unconsciously, to be social signaling for support than men when they attempt suicide?

No they are not. You answered your own question. Women are more likely to use non-violent methods, men are more likely to use violent methods. Violent methods are more likely to kill the victim, therefore more men die by suicide as a percentage overall.

Now your question becomes. Why those methods? And the answer I believe is not social signalling. Or at least it is not the main factor. I believe the answer is to do with aggression (being higher in men than women due to testosterone) and the unwillingness to cause disfigurement (because of social reasons). Source, I read a scientific book on it.

Re:A silent epidemic of male suicide (2011) by dempseye on Thursday September 01, 2016 @05:52AM (#12404005)
> No they are not.

How do you know?

Re:A silent epidemic of male suicide (2011) by rcpt on Saturday September 03, 2016 @01:15AM (#12417861)
Very recently I lost my brother to. How do you deal with this? My contact is in my profile.