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Re:Massachusetts to tax ride-hailing apps, give the money to... by ucarion on Sunday August 21, 2016 @02:08AM (#12329648)
You identify most of the difficulty of this scenario:

1. Taxis are a dying industry, but taxi drivers are not adapting.

2. As a result, taxi drivers are suffering. Their livelihoods, which have brought food to their families' tables for decades, are being taken from them by forces they could not anticipate or control.

Of course,

3. We care about these taxi drivers. Suffering is bad no matter what industry you work in. Suffering is worth avoiding.

Ultimately our answer has to be to say "your job doesn't really exist anymore, you need to find a new one". But it matters how much time we give taxi drivers. Clearly, asking them to adapt overnight would be too demanding, so there's a balance to be made between market efficiency and the realities of our apish learning rates.

In the long run, a lot of jobs are going the way of the taxi, and perhaps basic income is the long-term solution. But we can't implement basic income today. It's a massive solution to what is currently a minor, contained problem.

Every country's policies are a gigantic legacy codebase. Basic income would be re-writing a huge chunk of the code, where this tax is adding yet another minor hack to keep the thing running smoothly.

Re:Massachusetts to tax ride-hailing apps, give the money to... by BurningFrog on Sunday August 21, 2016 @02:37AM (#12329709)
> Taxis are a dying industry, but taxi drivers are not adapting.

How do you know? My impression is that most taxi drivers are very busy adapting. But I don't know either.

Let's be clear: The people hardest hit by Uber/Lyft is taxi company owners.

> Clearly, asking them to adapt overnight would be too demanding

Uber has been around for half a decade. How many decades does it take?

Re:Massachusetts to tax ride-hailing apps, give the money to... by ucarion on Sunday August 21, 2016 @03:12AM (#12329809)
> How do you know? My impression is that most taxi drivers are very busy adapting. But I don't know either.

To be clear: I don't know either. I'm an outsider to this industry. I'm just offering arguments.

> Let's be clear: The people hardest hit by Uber/Lyft is taxi company owners.

I don't think this is true. They're losing the most money, but they have lots of money. Taxi drivers risk losing all their revenue, which is worse.

> Uber has been around for half a decade. How many decades does it take?

I think this is the hardest question. According to the people behind this bill, half a decade is not enough. I agree with that judgment.

Re:Massachusetts to tax ride-hailing apps, give the money to... by Trundle on Sunday August 21, 2016 @04:35AM (#12330018)
Taxi drivers risk losing the difference between what they can earn working as a taxi driver and what they can earn on ride sharing apps. It's probably a fair drop but hardly all of their income.
Re:Massachusetts to tax ride-hailing apps, give the money to... by new299 on Sunday August 21, 2016 @08:03AM (#12330604)
Generally you pay for some kind of permit to be a taxi driver. A quick google suggests in excess of 150KUSD:

https://www.bostonglobe.com/ideas/2015/08/05/what-about-taxi...

So they potentially have a lot to lose...

Re:Massachusetts to tax ride-hailing apps, give the money to... by Trundle on Sunday August 21, 2016 @08:52AM (#12330756)
Generally you rent a permit/work for a company that owns them as a taxi driver. If there are taxi drivers buying medallions then they're 1) a small minority and 2)effectively business owners that are making a capital investment. Part of why one gets a return on investments is that they're assuming risk.
Re:Massachusetts to tax ride-hailing apps, give the money to... by techlover14159 on Wednesday August 24, 2016 @05:43PM (#12355488)
It is definitely unfair that a completely new class of competition is allowed which doesn't have to pay this 150k "medallion" fee. Instead of this 20c fee it would be fair to either reimburse the 150k fee to existing owners of taxis or have uber/lyft pay the same fee. Competition should be fair.

Oh and all the regulation should be the same for taxi vs ridesharing like insurance requirements (commercial insurance is much higher which taxis are required to carry) and inspection requirements etc.

Re:Massachusetts to tax ride-hailing apps, give the money to... by BurningFrog on Sunday August 21, 2016 @01:21PM (#12331721)
"New York City cab medallions, which sold for as much as $1 million a year ago, now are priced at the $500K level, battered by competition from Uber, Lyft.

Some Independent owners, having paid upwards of $1 million, are “under water” by hundreds of thousands of dollars on the mortgages they owe on the medallions."

http://www.odwyerpr.com/story/public/6471/2016-03-08/uber-ly...

Re:Massachusetts to tax ride-hailing apps, give the money to... by mpwoz on Monday August 22, 2016 @06:44PM (#12339982)
Uber is more than a year old, and investors speculating on $1 million medallions should have factored in the risk of losing that gamble...
Re:Massachusetts to tax ride-hailing apps, give the money to... by seanp2k2 on Sunday August 21, 2016 @09:00PM (#12333507)
What was the point of the medallion system in the first place?
Re:Massachusetts to tax ride-hailing apps, give the money to... by speby on Tuesday August 23, 2016 @06:54PM (#12348425)
Half a decade is not enough? How long did it take taxi drivers to learn to be taxi drivers in the first place? Surely not 5 years. Moving into another career/job/position will certainly take time to transition, learn, and train, but 5+ years is a long time. I know many people who are in wildly different jobs, different fields in much less time than that.
Re:Massachusetts to tax ride-hailing apps, give the money to... by xg15 on Sunday August 21, 2016 @03:34AM (#12329860)
> How do you know? My impression is that most taxi drivers are very busy adapting. But I don't know either.

The taxi driver I was taking with was mostly adapting to special-purpose taxi services like delivering IKEA furniture. That already meant a big revenue cut for him in contrast to normal taxi service.

I asked him about Uber and he said last time it was completely impossible to make living for him based on the revenue you get from Uber routes.

Self-driving cars weren't even part of the long-term plan back then...

Re:Massachusetts to tax ride-hailing apps, give the money to... by LogicX on Sunday August 21, 2016 @07:43AM (#12330532)
Since the bill goes to 2026, right now the answer appears to be approximately 1.5 decades by their judgement.
Re:Massachusetts to tax ride-hailing apps, give the money to... by kofejnik on Sunday August 21, 2016 @06:45AM (#12330333)
Under the old model, taxi riders were/are suffering, and taxi drivers want to keep getting their monopoly rent.

"Taxi drivers are suffering" actually means "they cannot fleece their customers like they used to". This is a zero sum game - taxi drivers take money from taxi riders, so any change will be met with opposition. The difference is, taxi drivers are better organized and have PR people to tell us about their "suffering", while millions of taxi riders quietly enjoy better service and reasonable prices.

Re:Massachusetts to tax ride-hailing apps, give the money to... by deanCommie on Sunday August 21, 2016 @07:26AM (#12330475)
Look, I hate cabs too. I hate having to tell the driver where to drop me off because they never use GPS. I hate feeling like a lowlife for wanting to pay by credit card because I never have cash. And I hate how expensive cabs are.

But let's not forget that most taxi drivers are themselves far from well off. It is a working class gig, with a heavy representation from new immigrants. It's long hours, it's physically draining (software developers get to rebel against sitting in front of computers in favour of standing desks, yet what about drivers), and most people do NOT get rich doing it.

It's still an industry that's sick with corruption that has depended on anti-competitive practices and should be destroyed and rebuilt for the betterment of society. But most taxi DRIVERS have few if any options in the upcoming world.

Re:Massachusetts to tax ride-hailing apps, give the money to... by na85 on Sunday August 21, 2016 @08:48AM (#12330738)
So we should prop up the robber barons running the shitty industry just to save the little guys who don't want to do something else?
Re:Massachusetts to tax ride-hailing apps, give the money to... by guptaneil on Sunday August 21, 2016 @11:26AM (#12331219)
I'm against propping up a dying industry by taxing the disrupters because it sets a terrible precedent. (Will Tesla be taxed to prop up oil companies in 10 years?) But to say taxi drivers don't want to do something else is unfair. Many drivers sunk all of their savings into buying a taxi medallion, assuming it would hold its value, and now live day to day on their earnings. Uber/Lyft have destroyed the value of the medallion, essentially wiping out the "little guy's" investment over night. Yes, life's unfair but as a compassionate society, can we do something to help them?

I'm more ok with the taxi businesses themselves going out of business for failing to innovate and getting themselves disrupted. That's on them. However, it does leave another problem... Taxi companies are heavily regulated for a reason. For example, they are required to offer services for disabled people at no extra charge. As far as I know, Uber/Lyft are under no such obligation and do nothing to accommodate the disabled. When taxi companies go away, what happens to that entire group of people?

One solution might be to classify ride-hailing apps as taxi companies as well and apply the same regulations. This also allows taxi companies to compete on a level playing field.

Re:Massachusetts to tax ride-hailing apps, give the money to... by kofejnik on Sunday August 21, 2016 @03:20PM (#12332284)
Last year in Athens I was forced to pay 50 EUR for a 20 minute ride to the airport (officially mandated price), while average monthly salary there is ~700 eur. No way an honest working class man would charge 1/14 of a monthly salary for a 20-minute job, this is a racket, pure and simple.
Re:Massachusetts to tax ride-hailing apps, give the money to... by kofejnik on Sunday August 21, 2016 @03:23PM (#12332302)
Also, my girlfriend is an honest hardworking person, who instead of overcrowded public transit can enjoy faster safer transportation daily, thanks to Uber. Why do you want to deny her this basic necessity?
Re:Massachusetts to tax ride-hailing apps, give the money to... by erikpukinskis on Sunday August 21, 2016 @02:24AM (#12329680)
To this end, we should br taxing self driving cars to create a pension fund for taxi drivers. Taxing one cab company to pay another doesn't seem to address your listed concerns at all.
Re:Massachusetts to tax ride-hailing apps, give the money to... by ptaipale on Sunday August 21, 2016 @02:54AM (#12329751)
It's good to care about taxi drivers, but not because they are taxi drivers.

Go back >200 years. In England, Spinning Jennies replaced weavers, and there were luddites who tried to resist, but the solution was not to start subsidizing weavers; and not even a specific tax to weaving machines to provide for the weavers specifically; the solution was to slowly build a social security system, and not just for master weavers (who had been relatively well off) but everyone.

Agreed, taxing one company to pay another does not make sense, but neither does subsidizing people of a certain profession just because they are no longer productive, by putting a burden on something productive just because it is better.

Re:Massachusetts to tax ride-hailing apps, give the money to... by tim333 on Sunday August 21, 2016 @06:33AM (#12330304)
>the solution was to slowly build a social security system

The Luddites were active around 1811 and welfare in the UK seems to have come in around 1906. The solutions at the time were closer to "suck it up". The government used "show trials intended to deter other Luddites from continuing their activities. By meting out harsh consequences, including, in many cases, execution and penal transportation, the trials quickly ended the movement."

That was the era of Charles Dickens and workhouses for the poor.

Re:Massachusetts to tax ride-hailing apps, give the money to... by visarga on Sunday August 21, 2016 @04:26AM (#12329988)
> putting a burden on something productive just because it is better

What aspect of Uber is better than a regular taxi? I can hail taxis from my phone just as well. They take me to the destination. I think Uber found a way to subsidize their fleet with drivers own cars and not pay some taxes to the state which the regular taxi drivers have to pay. Maybe I am missing something...

Re:Massachusetts to tax ride-hailing apps, give the money to... by sokoloff on Sunday August 21, 2016 @07:17AM (#12330440)
> What aspect of Uber is better than a regular taxi?

It's wildly cheaper (1/4-1/2 the price, depending on UberPool vs UberX), the app is more convenient (faster/easier to activate for a ride, better feedback while waiting), and if there's a problem with the ride of some sort, I'd rather deal with Uber than some random city's department of livery licensing. Not driving in a clapped-out Crown Vic with loose wheel bearings and 3-5 warning lights on the dash is a bonus.

For most people, more convenient and absurdly cheaper is enough to answer your question.

Re:Massachusetts to tax ride-hailing apps, give the money to... by icebraining on Sunday August 21, 2016 @05:20AM (#12330112)
In my area, Uber is better because their drivers don't treat me like shit - and I'm not talking about being servile, but simply greeting me back and not ranting the whole way about how rides should be $20 minimum. Before Uber, I took a taxi only in emergencies, simply because it was more often than not an unpleasant experience.

Their association is also corrupt as hell, so they can't even claim that over Uber.

Re:Massachusetts to tax ride-hailing apps, give the money to... by CydeWeys on Sunday August 21, 2016 @09:41AM (#12330883)
I had an unpleasant Uber experience a few months ago where my driver illegally drove in a bike lane to make a right turn at a light, cutting off another car at the light that was legally trying to proceed right. The two drivers got into a verbal altercation that lasted for another light, and then my driver was ranting about it for the rest of the entire drive. I got the feeling that the Uber driver used to be a yellow cab driver who was doing the same thing now but without a medallion. I should point out that driving in the bike lane was especially infuriating to me because I bike every day, whereas I almost never take cars.

The big difference between Uber and cabs, however, is that I left the driver a negative review on Uber, and their customer support got back to me. If he keeps pulling that crap he's not going to be able to drive for Uber anymore. There's essentially no recourse for cab drivers. Sure, they may have contact info posted for their company by law, but if you try to contact them you won't reach anyone who cares.

Re:Massachusetts to tax ride-hailing apps, give the money to... by thwarted on Sunday August 21, 2016 @01:29PM (#12331763)
illegally drove in a bike lane to make a right turn at a light, cutting off another car at the light that was legally trying to proceed right

Diverging off-topic, and your account is light on specifics needed for this divergence...

http://pedalfortcollins.com/righthandturns/

Re:Massachusetts to tax ride-hailing apps, give the money to... by ptaipale on Sunday August 21, 2016 @04:32PM (#12332613)
Good point. Rules of the road regarding right turns and bike lanes vary depending on jurisdiction. But even though your link was for Colorado and I'm in northern Europe, the rule is the same: a right-turning car actually should merge into bike lane.

So, sometimes it could be that the Uber (or taxi) driver knows more about the rules of the road that the passenger, and when the passenger complains based on wrong understanding of traffic law, it's not an easy customer-serving situation.

Re:Massachusetts to tax ride-hailing apps, give the money to... by CydeWeys on Sunday August 21, 2016 @07:29PM (#12333228)
To be clear, I didn't say anything at all. The driver was ranting at me and I didn't want any part of it.

I'm pretty sure it's illegal to use a bike lane to cut off another car that's already stopped at an intersection. Keep in mind this is a road that has a single travel lane in each direction -- there isn't a separate right-turning lane.

Re:Massachusetts to tax ride-hailing apps, give the money to... by CydeWeys on Sunday August 21, 2016 @07:31PM (#12333232)
I can't find specifics on NYC -- any ideas? Regardless, I don't think it's acceptable to use a bike lane to cut off another vehicle that's already stopped at the light indicating a turn when there is only one car travel lane. The Uber barely slipped through.
Re:Massachusetts to tax ride-hailing apps, give the money to... by JoshTriplett on Sunday August 21, 2016 @06:50AM (#12330362)
(Note: most of the below applies to Lyft as well.)

> What aspect of Uber is better than a regular taxi?

Higher-quality, rated drivers. Single app that works consistently everywhere. Better reporting mechanism for problems, that also works consistently everywhere. Live mapping of the vehicle picking you up. Payment handled automatically and consistently everywhere. No payment step inside the vehicle.

> I can hail taxis from my phone just as well.

Using one app per city (if the city even has one), or a phone number (vastly worse, and you need to look it up), with the experience varying vastly in different locations. Uber and Lyft work identically everywhere.

Re:Massachusetts to tax ride-hailing apps, give the money to... by CamperBob2 on Sunday August 21, 2016 @05:24AM (#12330121)
What aspect of Uber is better than a regular taxi?

For one thing, with Uber, those of us who don't live in a major metro area don't have to wait 30-60 minutes for a cab that might or might not even show up. There's always an available Uber driver nearby.

Think about it. How would Uber have gotten any traction in the marketplace if it weren't better than the incumbent taxi operators in some substantial ways?

Re:Massachusetts to tax ride-hailing apps, give the money to... by lgieron on Sunday August 21, 2016 @05:41AM (#12330173)
The fare is computed by the central system, so you can't be scammed by a cabbie who secretly puts on the night fare etc. Although, I was once scammed out of a couple pounds by an Uber driver who said I need to reimburse him the entrance fee on the airport (a couple pounds paid at the gate), and it turns out Uber charged me that fee as well.
Re:Massachusetts to tax ride-hailing apps, give the money to... by angry_octet on Sunday August 21, 2016 @06:36AM (#12330312)
One could argue that Uber can offer lower rates by having higher utilisation -- those people who are part time Uber drivers clock on at peak times. However, I think this argument is specious, because most uber drivers are full time.

I would argue that the reputation system for drivers (and passengers) is an improvement over the current taxi system. The online booking system (app) is massively better than any taxi booking system I've used. These are strong incentives.

Obviously taxi systems involve paying the state for a licence to operate, but the ~500k price (depending on location) is solely due to an articficial scarcity. There needs to be some external regulation, so Uber/etc should pay some per trip/km charge.

One of the biggest problems with Uber and Taxis is insurance. Basically this cost/risk is being directly transferred to the driver, who may have no assets. It isn't acceptable for a service like this to have un-covered liabilities.

The other big gap is that Uber and Taxi companies have terrible employment practices. Failure to pay payroll tax is only the tip of the iceberg.

Re:Massachusetts to tax ride-hailing apps, give the money to... by idiot900 on Sunday August 21, 2016 @07:19AM (#12330447)
Taxis in some places have awful service and blatantly ignore the law. Extrapolating from my experience, nearly every credit card reader in a taxi in Philadelphia is broken even though they must be working, and has been for years. As such I use Uber there 100% of the time, even when a taxi is available. By contrast, somehow, NYC cabs virtually always have working equipment - and there I use taxis for the majority of car trips.
Re:Massachusetts to tax ride-hailing apps, give the money to... by CydeWeys on Sunday August 21, 2016 @09:50AM (#12330904)
I get the feeling that the regulations in NYC have more teeth to them. The medallions are very costly, and you risk losing many days of profitability on them if your equipment isn't up to snuff.
Re:Massachusetts to tax ride-hailing apps, give the money to... by TheSpiceIsLife on Sunday August 21, 2016 @04:42AM (#12330028)
Yep, I don't get it either.

taxi |ˈtaksi| noun ( pl. taxis ) a motor vehicle licensed to transport passengers in return for payment of a fare and typically fitted with a taximeter.

Uber is a taxi service. Uber _is_ licensed in the sense that they are allowed to operate.

Saying Uber isn't a taxi service is a load of dingos kidneys, in my arrogant opinion.

Re:Massachusetts to tax ride-hailing apps, give the money to... by SilasX on Sunday August 21, 2016 @05:45PM (#12332866)
Regulations typically distinguish taxis, which can pick up street hails, from car/bus/limo services, which are pre-arranged or pre-scheduled. Bus and limo drivers also "drive people for money" (and even for buses, sometimes charge by distance), but aren't subject to taxi regs.

And that's not an arbitrary distinction: much of the danger and public interest in cans arises from grabbing randos off the street. As car/limo services track that info remotely, they merit correspondingly less regulation.

Re:Massachusetts to tax ride-hailing apps, give the money to... by TheSpiceIsLife on Tuesday August 23, 2016 @03:52PM (#12346930)
Ah, yes indeed, very good point, thanks for clearing that up for me.
Re:Massachusetts to tax ride-hailing apps, give the money to... by dzhiurgis on Sunday August 21, 2016 @05:19AM (#12330107)
Works globally, processes payments, eliminates bad drivers.
Re:Massachusetts to tax ride-hailing apps, give the money to... by xorcist on Sunday August 21, 2016 @05:36AM (#12330155)
The last bit is problematic, as one of the criticisms against them is that they don't eliminate the bad drivers. People drive with all sorts of criminal records which they tried to spin as something positive.
Re:Massachusetts to tax ride-hailing apps, give the money to... by ptaipale on Sunday August 21, 2016 @08:11AM (#12330630)
A driver with criminal record is not the same thing as a bad driver.

In many senses, being able to provide meaningful jobs to people with a criminal record is actually a service to the society. At least in my opinion, the idea of punishment is also rehabilitation, not that once you've been convicted of a crime, you could never be trusted with a job where you are in contact with other people or money or anything.

So if Uber can hire them, and even their customer feedback is positive, that is a good thing.

Re:Massachusetts to tax ride-hailing apps, give the money to... by lparry on Sunday August 21, 2016 @06:47AM (#12330345)
If that driver with a criminal record keeps their rating high enough to keep driving, what's the problem? A reformed criminal who drives safely and is pleasant to their passengers would be better than half the taxi drivers I've ever had the displeasure of dealing with
Re:Massachusetts to tax ride-hailing apps, give the money to... by zigzigzag on Sunday August 21, 2016 @06:28AM (#12330289)
"Bad driver" has a wider meaning than "has a criminal record".
Re:Massachusetts to tax ride-hailing apps, give the money to... by throwawaymsft on Sunday August 21, 2016 @01:41PM (#12331815)
You've never taken an Uber. For your own market education try it sometime.
Re:Massachusetts to tax ride-hailing apps, give the money to... by xorcist on Sunday August 21, 2016 @05:27AM (#12330130)
> there were luddites who tried to resist, but the solution was not to start subsidizing weavers

It is not fair to history to keep repeating that. The historical luddites were not against technological change.